Jotel or Lopi / Avalon?

[netmouse]

Hi,

I'd appreciate your opinion of the following stoves. I am down to the wire in selecting a replacement for my big old Vermont Castings Defiant. Partly, it is based on what stores carry around here. I have an old 2-story Victorian house about 1700 sq. feet.

I also like cast iron versus steel. My perception and I'm told that the cast iron is more like a rock that holds heat. I'm not sure if they hold up equally well (warping).

Anyway, my choices are the following. The cost is about the same.

1. Store #1 - Lopi - Leyden model (top loading). The Avalon - Arbor is the same thing but with straight front doors (instead of Lopi's curved doors).

2. Store #2 - Jotul - F500 Oslo (top and side loading).

There is also a Vermont Castings store not far. And I think Regency.

Store #1 showed me a chart of "Combined Ranking EPA Certified Non-catalytic stove lines". And Lopi / Avalon were number 1 and 2 (no wonder the store showed me that). And Vermont Castings was way at the bottom of the long list. Jotul is not made in the USA so was not on the list.

 

[tickbitty]

I didn't realize the Leyden was a cast iron stove! I haven't heard that much about it but I know you can do a search here and find what people think of it.
The Oslo seems to be one of the most loved stoves on this forum so you probably can't go too wrong with that one. Vermont castings doesn't currently have the best rep but hopefully for them that may be on the upswing. I don't recall hearing a lot about the Regency/Hampton cast iron stoves, but they look nice. One thing you might consider checking out in that lineup are the Pacific Energy Alderlea stoves.
(broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/product_alderleaT5.php)

 

[grommal]

Hi,

I'd appreciate your opinion of the following stoves. I am down to the wire in selecting a replacement for my big old Vermont Castings Defiant. Partly, it is based on what stores carry around here. I have an old 2-story Victorian house about 1700 sq. feet.

I also like cast iron versus steel. My perception and I'm told that the cast iron is more like a rock that holds heat. I'm not sure if they hold up equally well (warping).

Anyway, my choices are the following. The cost is about the same.

1. Store #1 - Lopi - Leyden model (top loading). The Avalon - Arbor is the same thing but with straight front doors (instead of Lopi's curved doors).

2. Store #2 - Jotul - F500 Oslo (top and side loading).

There is also a Vermont Castings store not far. And I think Regency.

Store #1 showed me a chart of "Combined Ranking EPA Certified Non-catalytic stove lines". And Lopi / Avalon were number 1 and 2 (no wonder the store showed me that). And Vermont Castings was way at the bottom of the long list. Jotul is not made in the USA so was not on the list.

The F500 Oslo is front and side loading. It's not a top loader. Jotul has a new model that IS a top and front loader, the F50 TL Rangeley. They do not have a top/side loading stove.

The big difference between the Jotul Oslo (or Rangeley) and the Lopi Leyden is the way secondary combustion is achieved. Jotul uses tubes in the top of the firebox to add heated air and burn the gases (the most widely used system on non-cat stoves), while the Leyden uses a chamber in the rear of the stove similar to the VC Everburn system. While some folks love their Everburn-type stoves, most feel that this type of design is more finicky to run and picky about the quality of the draft.

 

[krex1010]

The brands you mentioned jotul, lopi/Avalon, also the Hampton/regency stoves all have excellent reputations, So I think if you get a properly sized stove from any of them you will be more than happy. VC kinda has a bad rep these days for quality and warranty issues and from what I have heard that bad rep is well deserved.
In my opinion I think most manufacturers are turning out some pretty good products these days. I am basing that opinion on what I saw when shopping myself last year and the fact that the issues I have seen here tend to be spread pretty evenly across the different brands. As for cast iron vs steel. There is a bit of a difference but I tend to think that the difference is overstated. I think as long as you get a properly sized stove and have it properly installed then you will be happy with whichever brand you choose! Good luck

 

[netmouse]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I did also read some posts here and have learned a good bit.

A concern is air tightness. Per an energy audit, my current stove lets in outside air when not in use. One problem is that the gaskets need replacing. And I put tape over the metal flap for the air intake hole because the air flowing in keeps moving it.

Questions: Is cast iron more prone to air leaking through the body than welded steel stoves? I don't know how the cast iron body parts are "glued" together.

I heard both cast iron and steel are subject to warping if overfired, so see no advantage either way in this area.

Another concern is some posts here are about the Jotul 500 ash pan being loose (air leak potential) per a test with a dollar bill easily pulling out. Can such a pan be adjusted after installation if necessary? I would prefer not to have another hole and don't mind scrapping the ashes off the floor of my current stove - can the ash pan be sealed or covered over if I don't want to use it?

 

[nelraq]

I have an Oslo. The only door that is ever opened is the side door - it works very well for loading wood and also for reaching in and cleaning the glass when required. My ash pan is full of ash and will stay that way! I take ashes out with a small shovel and bucket.

My front and ash pan doors do not IMO need to be opened; and as a result the gaskets don't loosen up and become leaky!

 

[firefighterjake]

Random thoughts . . .

Both Lopi and Jotuls have great reputations . . . I think as long as you get the right sized stove for your home you would be happy with either.

That said . . . the F-500 Oslo is near bullet-proof. It may not be the fanciest, biggest or baddest, but it gets the job done and is very reliable . . . think of it as the Toyota Tundra of the stove world (at least I think I can say it's the Toyota Tundra . . . I haven't of any major recalls on those trucks . . . yet.)

VC . . . I'd take a pass. I believe the company is working on rebuilding, but until recently if you do a search you'll find many complaints with unhonored warrantees, expensive replacement parts and a history of stoves that looked a lot better than they performed. That said . . . I still think the VCs look wicked nice.

Regency . . . It seems to me a lot of the Regency stoves are steel . . . decent stoves . . . but not quite as fancy as some of the higher end (read more expensive) stoves.

Overfiring . . . incidentally steel stoves can warp and welds can pop whereas cast iron stoves can crack with overfiring . . . however it should be pointed out that regardless of what stove you have you simply shouldn't overfire the stove on a routine basis and then you don't have to worry about replacing warped or cracked parts.

Air tight . . . modern stoves are not really designed to be air tight . . . but that said you shouldn't see a large amount of air leaving or entering your home when the stove is not in use . . . although truth be told if you're like most folks you may start out only intending to use the stove occasionally and will soon be using it a good amount of the time.

Leaking stoves . . . steel stoves are welded together and cast iron stoves are bolted and cemented or use a gasket between the parts. If properly maintained you should not have any issues. Almost every stove uses gaskets around the doors -- don't worry about that aspect . . . changing and replacing gaskets is cheap and easy . . . which reminds me . . . one of the best features with the Oslo is the ash pan . . . you will want to use this very useful, large pan . . . I suspect you'll find that leaking ash pan doors is not a major concern and even if one has to replace the gaskets for this door or the front door for that matter it is an easy and cheap fix.

As for specific info . . . I love my Oslo. Negative point: If you use the front door to load wood you will have some ash spill out on to the front ash lip . . . it happens. Best point: Side loading door. Slightly annoying issue: Every once in a while you may have to take off the doghouse over the air control and apply some graphite powder on to the sliding mechanism to keep it moving nice and easy. If I Could Order Another Oslo Today What Would I Do Differently: Easy -- order one in the blue black enamel.

Quite honestly the Oslo is a good looking stove, but more importantly it is a simple and easy to use stove that really puts out the heat.

 

[netmouse]

Thank you again. I just returned from a third store. The VC one. He also has Hearthstone's Mansfield soapstone stove. Really beautiful. I believe I've heard great things about soapstone. It is about $3100 so $500 to $1000 higher than the other stoves. But it is nice. He alternatively recommends Dutch West and gave me the VC brochure. I'll research at the websites this weekend.

I got good general info also from this guy. He told me about the cement holding cast iron parts together, and yes it can dry out and breakaway, making the body leak air. I have a down draft problem due to my house lack of adequate insulation, and air comes in via the stove when not in use. He will replace all the gaskets for only $30 (labor). He also pointed out no stove today has an air intake hole / flap that is reachable like my old VC that has it on the back - I can tape that shut when the stove is not in use to stop the down draft air coming out. Modern stoves have the air intake holes are out of reach.

 

[sandie]

Go with Jotul F500 if it were me Have an old VC Resolute and it is nice but if new I would go with Jotul I believe if I want a cast iron which I do believe I want.

 

[leeave96]

I really like the Jotul stoves and the Hearthstone stoves are fantastic too. I have a Woodstock Keystone soapstone stove and like it. The Woodstock Fireview a beautiful stove too. Do a search on soapstone stoves.

Just courious, why are you replacing the old VC Defiant woodstove?

Good luck,
Bill

 

[netmouse]

I am thinking of replacing the old VC defiant because:

Concerns with the body air leaking given that the stove is over 25 years old (and my house has negative air flow / stacking issues that I'm trying to "fix" as well). I want to ensure air tightness. My VC guy said that on an old stove the cement can dry out and break away. What really interests me is that the current VC models say they are "fully gasketed construction" - and I wonder if that is a big deal and a big improvement that I should look for???

The damper often does not turn (engage) when I turn the handle if the stove is good and hot. My chimney sweep tightened a screw in the handle that improved this, but the problem still shows up at times. I'm told it probably is due to warping. Then, the VC guy was here and felt it, then said he could not feel warping (but he failed to tighten the screw that the chimney sweep guy did later).

Others say stoves are appliances and like any appliance you get a new one after a while, and that new stoves are built better with better features.

The federal tax credit $1500 ends next month.

Meantime, until I can make up my stupid mind, I am having the VC guy today replace the gaskets and I might paint the doors that have greyish color back to all black.

I am skittish now on the Lopi after reading some posts here about its combustion process is a bit tricky and causes the glass to not stay clean. It may be the most EPA efficient, whatever, but I may be happier with a standard, easier process. My problem with the Jotul store is they just left me a voicemail that balks at removing my old stove and put me off saying they have to see my porch to decide on it and they are so busy it may be weeks before they can visit. I do believe they are that busy, though, due to the tax credit ending, and I heard someone in the store comment about lining up a lady in February (and I can only assume that is an install).

I am so confused.

 

[Green Energy]

+1 to FFJake message

I was in the same position as you 18 months ago. Been burning in a large Dutchwest Cat stove - the Cat crumbled and I knew the stove needed to be rebuilt, and there was the $1,500 tax credit for the new stoves.

For me, I needed to put in an insulated chimney liner and went with the Olso because of the reputation and because with the short leg kit I could install it on my hearth and vent it through my fireplace, into a T and up the liner. I had some adjustments to make in understanding what seasoned wood really is. I struggled with my marginal wood last year, but I got my wood for this winter, last winter so that I could have drier wood. For the eight or so fires I have had this fall, the dry wood made a big difference. With the right wood, this stove is very easy to operate and delivers the heat.

What I love about the stove:
1. Light show is amazing, memorizing
2. Stove heats up fast 20 - 30 minutes from cold to cruising
3. Stove looks really, really nice (matches our traditional style)
4. Seems to be well made, quality materials, nice details
5. Side door, side door, side door (stove takes up most of the width of the hearth, so I am loading from my hearth, not the hearth extension)

The main thing that is less than ideal is that the ideal burn cycle time is 6 hours or so. I went 8 hours overnight last night and had sufficient coals to reload without kindling. But I would like to have 10-12 hours with a good coal bed left (fits my work schedule). I may improve this by being careful on my split selection, loading and leaving a good amount of ashes. But given the limitations on the height of the flue outlet, I could not go with the Firelight.

Bottom line is that I am glad I replaced my old stove and am very happy with the Oslo.

 

[begreen]

I am thinking of replacing the old VC defiant because:

Concerns with the body air leaking given that the stove is over 25 years old (and my house has negative air flow / stacking issues that I'm trying to "fix" as well). I want to ensure air tightness. My VC guy said that on an old stove the cement can dry out and break away. What really interests me is that the current VC models say they are "fully gasketed construction" - and I wonder if that is a big deal and a big improvement that I should look for???

The damper often does not turn (engage) when I turn the handle if the stove is good and hot. My chimney sweep tightened a screw in the handle that improved this, but the problem still shows up at times. I'm told it probably is due to warping. Then, the VC guy was here and felt it, then said he could not feel warping (but he failed to tighten the screw that the chimney sweep guy did later).

Others say stoves are appliances and like any appliance you get a new one after a while, and that new stoves are built better with better features.

The federal tax credit $1500 ends next month.

Meantime, until I can make up my stupid mind, I am having the VC guy today replace the gaskets and I might paint the doors that have greyish color back to all black.

I am skittish now on the Lopi after reading some posts here about its combustion process is a bit tricky and causes the glass to not stay clean. It may be the most EPA efficient, whatever, but I may be happier with a standard, easier process. My problem with the Jotul store is they just left me a voicemail that balks at removing my old stove and put me off saying they have to see my porch to decide on it and they are so busy it may be weeks before they can visit. I do believe they are that busy, though, due to the tax credit ending, and I heard someone in the store comment about lining up a lady in February (and I can only assume that is an install).

I am so confused.

I can appreciate the confusion. Let me see if I can help clear up a bit of it.

The Leyden and equivalent sized Dutchwest non-cat stove are similar inside. They are side-draft stoves that have a secondary combustion chamber for cleaner burning. These stoves are fussier about draft. Think Goldilocks. Too little draft or too much and they are a real pita. Just right and they are nice stoves. However, the combustion chamber is built out of a fragile ceramic refractory that doesn't seem to stand up well. As a result, the service record for these stoves is higher than average.

The Jotul F500 is a much simpler, updraft stove with a secondary burn tube rack for clean burn. There is a lot less that can go wrong with this style stove.

The Dutchwest catalytic stove uses a catalytic combuster for a clean burn. The track record for this stove is pretty good as long as the catalyst is cared for properly.

There are other choices that might work for you. And there are stoves that have attractive cast iron exteriors, but have simple steel stoves at heart. Some examples of these in the size you are looking at are the Pacific Energy T5 and Quadrafire Cumberland Gap. With the welded steel interior box, there is no issue with the seams leaking.

Finally, while at the Hearthstone dealer, take a look at the cast iron Shelburne.

 

[Renovation]

The big difference between the Jotul Oslo (or Rangeley) and the Lopi Leyden is the way secondary combustion is achieved. Jotul uses tubes in the top of the firebox to add heated air and burn the gases (the most widely used system on non-cat stoves), while the Leyden uses a chamber in the rear of the stove similar to the VC Everburn system. While some folks love their Everburn-type stoves, most feel that this type of design is more finicky to run and picky about the quality of the draft.

What Grommal said.

I came to this forum interested in the Leyden--it is a very pretty stove, from a good company--but saw mixed reviews on it. That's not to say some aren't very happy with them.

 

[netmouse]

You are all so helpful, as are those posting about my related house insulation concerns in a thread in the non-hearth advice area. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/63474/

First a note. Someone mentioned using kindling. For years I have used the sawdust / wax bricks, and fires start right up without kindling. I use newspaper but probably do not need to. My chimney sweep gives me a clean bill of health each year.

It is a confusing time to make expensive decisions with the added pressure of the tax credit ending next month.

What I am now thinking is:

1. Insulate and air seal the house, using the tax credit. There are so many variables in doing this - and to do it right, which is pretty expensive, it may depend on getting approval for the state energy rebates that in NJ are significant but funds have to still be available (the program really messed up and some lawsuits are flying around about contracts that had to be cancelled when the governor froze the funds early summer. But funds apparently are again available).

2. My VC guy has my defiant doors to replace the gaskets. And I'll paint it. Its still looks good after over 25 years. And this work is simple and cheap to do. And then, as he said, I'll get a good fire going and test the body seams for any air leakage using a flame (or smoke stick I'd guess). If the integrity is OK, and the tax credit is no longer a lure, I can replace the stove if / when needed. The other concern will be how bad is the problem where the damper does not engage with the handle when I turn it when the stove is pretty hot. And if that means I can't get the stove as good and hot as it can run at.

I suspect this will all come to a conclusion soon after the holiday. Thank you again everyone. You help more than you know! Any other thoughts, let me know. And have a great Thanksgiving!