Jotul f100 vs F400 and a few other decisions

[Rtsnamwolp]

Good morning! I have gotten approval from the Mrs. and we are in the process of designing/installing a wood stove in our living room. We narrowed it down to the f100 or the f400 (we like the CF style of both otherwise it would be an easy decision to go with the f3cb) So my question to you experts is if the F400 is going to be too much stove? Shockingly the 2 stoves pretty much require similar clearances, the 400 actually is a bit better?! Anyway, I attached a very rough drawing that is definitely not to scale but it will help you see our layout. The stove will be installed in our living room 14x14, mounted square along one of the side walls. The living room then feeds into the kitchen with a 6ft open doorway. The kitchen then feeds into the dining room through another 6ft open doorway, which then leads to the remainder of the house (bedrooms and bath). I understand that it will be difficult to get heat to that part of the house. Total main floor square footage of our ranch is about 1050 sqft. The basement is about 300sqft , (open stairwell off living room not sure if that will help ease temperatures)

My greatest concern is if the 400 will burn us out of the living room. The dealer and my father both agree that it's always better to have a little extra stove than you need rather than always be falling short. We can always crack a window or door. And with the expense of this installation I don't want to be disappointed. Can anyone point me in either direction? The cost savings of going with the f100 certainly is nice and enticing but you can't fit as large of a split, it doesn't have extended burn time, and no Ash pan. That being said if you guys and gals say the 400 is way too much stove, I would have no problem dropping down to the 100 as it is still a nice looking unit. Looking forward to hearing some opinions on this, thanks in advance! Drawing is attached, excuse my chicken scratch!

 

[begreen]

In your climate zone the F400 could work if a system is setup to distribute the heat. I would also look at the Jotul F45 for closer clearances and as a less radiant heater.

 

[Rtsnamwolp]

Thanks

In your climate zone the F400 could work if a system is setup to distribute the heat. I would also look at the Jotul F45 for closer clearances and as a less radiant heater.

Thanks for the insight. I'm planning on installing a ceiling fan in the room with the stove which to my understanding should help with air movement. Just don't want to feel like we are living in a sauna.

Will check around at the area dealers to see if they have a f45. A lot are making room for the next models and I definitely would like to see it in person before ordering. I saw the f400 CF this weekend and it is a beaut!

Regarding hearth pads, how do you feel about the ember king metal pads that only offer ember protection? I kind of like their sleekness. It seems crazy to have a 500+ degree stove and be able to only have a half inch piece of metal protection with no insulation. But I guess they couldn't sell them or write it's acceptable in the manual if it wasn't sufficient. Anyone using a metal pad under their stoves?

 

[begreen]

The F45 is a jacketed stove and therefore less radiant. That can be a better fit for smaller spaces.

 

[Woody Stover]

Yet again, begreen is right. With that layout, you want to heat air, then move it to the other areas, not heat up the stove room contents with radiant output.
The natural convection loop is your friend in moving warm air. Don't use the ceiling fan yet, see how the convection loop works first.
With the stove blower on low speed, warm air rises in the stove room and cool, dense air pushes in down low and displaces the warm air out of the top of the doorway. You can enhance this loop with one small 8" fan on low, on the floor somewhere in the dining room, moving air across the kitchen floor and into the bottom of the doorway into the stove room. By not running a ceiling fan, and letting the warm air rise, the cool air flowing into the stove room will keep you comfortable as you sit in the stove room. You can move the displaced warm air further back to the bedrooms with a second small fan, on low, at the end of the hallway moving cool air toward the dining room.

 

[Woody Stover]

Plowman's what??

 

[Rtsnamwolp]

Excellent info, I definitely plan on experimenting with small fans around the house, regardless of which stove we go with. Thanks again for the input, I have read many of your guys posts across the site and it's very helpful. Now if you guys only had a way to make the project cheaper! One of the quotes I received for the chimney install was north of $3k
(ha! Was hoping people would catch that....Plowman RTS- it's initials the of the company)

 

[EbS-P]

One thing you might consider is the F400 takes a 20” log and the F100 16”. And 16+ gets hard to pack a stove as they have to sit at an angle. If you are cutting your own wood not a big deal if buying wood I’d make sure you can get it cut to correct length. I’m getting pretty good at running the F400 with a really clean burn and lower heat output. It’s not been cold here (some say it never gets cold here) and I can run with stove tops temps in the low 400with the air turned all the way down and fully engaged secondary burn. I’m burning pine and poplar. That said 14’x14’ is not a large space. The suggestion to look at one of the jacketed stove is a good one.

Do you want to supplement the wood heat some, quite a bit of the time or none at all?
I saw a F100 installed and it looked cute. I like my ash pan in my F400, 100 doesn’t have one.

Are you planning to top or rear vent? rear vent F400s can spill a little smoke. I’ve been around both a top and rear vent F400, and I’m sensitive to woodsmoke, the difference is very noticeable. I can smell that I reloaded my top vent, but don’t have any lingering effects. Can’t speak to how F100 operates.

With either stove you will try to move the heat around with fans on floor.
We have 2000 sq ft open concept ranch. And on the really cold nights. 24F or colder ( I know right) I wish I had a bigger stove. The other 90% of the time the F400 is fine. For comparison we have a 3 ton heat pump that can’t keep up when it’s that cold either.

I love my F400 both looks and function.

hope that helps.

Evan.

 

[begreen]

Another plus for the F45 is that it can be loaded N/S. The F400 and F100 are E/W loaders.

 

[Rtsnamwolp]

One thing you might consider is the F400 takes a 20” log and the F100 16”. And 16+ gets hard to pack a stove as they have to sit at an angle. If you are cutting your own wood not a big deal if buying wood I’d make sure you can get it cut to correct length. I’m getting pretty good at running the F400 with a really clean burn and lower heat output. It’s not been cold here (some say it never gets cold here) and I can run with stove tops temps in the low 400with the air turned all the way down and fully engaged secondary burn. I’m burning pine and poplar. That said 14’x14’ is not a large space. The suggestion to look at one of the jacketed stove is a good one.

Do you want to supplement the wood heat some, quite a bit of the time or none at all?
I saw a F100 installed and it looked cute. I like my ash pan in my F400, 100 doesn’t have one.

Are you planning to top or rear vent? rear vent F400s can spill a little smoke. I’ve been around both a top and rear vent F400, and I’m sensitive to woodsmoke, the difference is very noticeable. I can smell that I reloaded my top vent, but don’t have any lingering effects. Can’t speak to how F100 operates.

With either stove you will try to move the heat around with fans on floor.
We have 2000 sq ft open concept ranch. And on the really cold nights. 24F or colder ( I know right) I wish I had a bigger stove. The other 90% of the time the F400 is fine. For comparison we have a 3 ton heat pump that can’t keep up when it’s that cold either.

I love my F400 both looks and function.

hope that helps.

Evan.

Thanks Evan, I am looking around for an f45 to see in person, begreen made a good argument to check it out. I am however more partial to the looks of the Castine or Nordic.

This will be a straight pipe, top vent, in a single story ranch so install "should" be straightforward. This set up should be good for any draft concerns.

The wife likes the idea of the smaller stove, takes up less space etc, however I think it's one of those rare opportunities to use the form over function or function over form arguments....20" Max for splits will be a lot nicer to work with, longer burn times, and the ash pan.

It will be not be used as a primary heater, however I have access to free firewood so if I can distribute the heat well enough it will definitely be getting good use. I guess that is where I am hung up most, will the f100 suffice as it has less footprint and the look I'm going for, (just will be refilling every 3-4hrs) or do I move up to either the f45 or f400. It's a personal choice at the end of the day I guess.

Right now the focus is on the hearth pad. The premade ones the dealers sell are decent but I'm wondering if I can be more creative such as using a piece of bluestone or granite. Those metal pads have my interest as well as they don't have a heavy look for a small room.

Thanks again for everyone's input! Can't wait for that first burn.

 

[Sailrmike]

It's my understanding that the new f45's haven't shipped to dealers yet, but they will start to be distributed very soon

 

[EbS-P]

Per the manual if you install the bottom heat shield on both the F400 and 100, you only need non-combustible protection. Grouted tile on plywood or on cement board on plywood can look really nice. We were at the tile store today. I’m blown away by the choices. Glass would work too. I like the stone idea. If you had the corners and edges radiused. Would be really neat if the edge profile had a nod to the edge profile of the top of the stove.

 

[Rtsnamwolp]

Per the manual if you install the bottom heat shield on both the F400 and 100, you only need non-combustible protection. Grouted tile on plywood or on cement board on plywood can look really nice. We were at the tile store today. I’m blown away by the choices. Glass would work too. I like the stone idea. If you had the corners and edges radiused. Would be really neat if the edge profile had a nod to the edge profile of the top of the stove.

Yeah I know it's a project to build something vs. just buying a prefab but it would allow me to do the size I want and get the exact look I'm going for. I think I saw a post on here where someone bought his tiles, measured them out and was able to bring them back to the store to be cut.

Does anyone own a Jotul or I guess any stove for that matter, that only requires ember protection and uses a bottom heat shield? How hot does it get underneath?

 

[begreen]

There are many stoves on the market today that only require ember protection. Too many to list, but the Jotul F500 is an example.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yeah I know it's a project to build something vs. just buying a prefab but it would allow me to do the size I want and get the exact look I'm going for. I think I saw a post on here where someone bought his tiles, measured them out and was able to bring them back to the store to be cut.

Does anyone own a Jotul or I guess any stove for that matter, that only requires ember protection and uses a bottom heat shield? How hot does it get underneath?

I have a heat shield on the bottom of my stove, which also has an ash pan chamber. With the tall legs there is no requirement for an insulated hearth, in other words an ember only requirement. I keep firewood under the stove sometimes and it does not get hot. The stove isn't burning right now but I'd guess the tile under my stove is less than 100 df when the stove is burning hottest.

 

[JotulOwner]

We have 2000 sq ft open concept ranch. And on the really cold nights. 24F or colder ( I know right) I wish I had a bigger stove. The other 90% of the time the F400 is fine. For comparison we have a 3 ton heat pump that can’t keep up when it’s that cold either.
I love my F400 both looks and function.

I have 1500 SF on two levels (750 SF each level with the stove in the back room which is about 300 SF) and I never thought my F400 was too much for my home. There are some cold days when I wish I had a little bit more capacity, but I know I made the right choice. It's a great stove IMHO.

 

[Rtsnamwolp]

So tonight I got the opportunity to see the F100, F400, F45 2020 model and the F500 Oslo 2020 model (I believe next size up from f400?) All were on display, with the 500 actively burning. So here's where I'm at... the 500 actively burning was putting off serious heat. The dealer showed me the new cat system and how the secondaries fire and boy what a show. But if I were to imagine that in my house/living room (1050sqft) I'd be in the dog house. Way too much heat for our space. So I realize that this is the 500 but it made me second guess if I should go big and have the ability to crack a window with the 400, plus long burn time, Ash pan, etc...Or if I need to step back and go with with the f100 Nordic which is still a cool looking little stove! No doubt it would heat up our living room but I hate the thought of always refueling and running it at max temp to get some heat moving in the house, also the annoyances of small split size and no ash pan. Decisions, decisions...Begreen, I saw the new F45 and can appreciate it's specs but it just doesn't carry the same character of the other jotuls. Thanks again for offering another option though

Did I mention how nice the 500 was?! A man can dream....

Happy Friday all!

 

[Texas123]

I have the F500 and I recommend it for the reason you discovered; it puts out serious heat.

My house is 1630 square feet and last winter at 25 degrees I kept the hallway at 75 degrees, using only the HVAC circulation fan to move the stove room heat. (75-25) times 1630 times .394 Btu/Ft squared/area of the house (called the U value in HVAC calculations)
yields a sustainable load of 32,111 BTU/s per hour. What this means is, when it is in the teens or 20s outside and the power fails in the winter, you have a large enough stove to handle the load.
Plus the ability to load from the side and handle 24 inch wood is a good thing.

 

[Woody Stover]

If your house has decent insulation and air-sealing, the Castine should handle your needs well I would think. IIRC, begreen said it doesn't quite go overnight, but packing it with dry hardwoods of high output like White Oak, Black Locust or Hickory, it might get close. Nothing wrong with letting the furnace pick up the slack if needed.
I think the convection loop I described will keep you from roasting in the stove room, and you can run smaller partial loads when you are there to moderate stove output.
I got spoiled on a grated ash system many years ago, and it's one of the main features I look for in a stove. Clean and easy.

 

[CentralVAWoodHeat]

If the Castine will safely install in the space you have picked for it, I would personally choose that over the F100.

In addition to heating output, also consider how you will go about building a fire in each size stove. I had an F400 and would never want to make a fire in a smaller firebox. I remember my Castine fitting up to a 20” log comfortably whereas I believe the F100 will only fit up to a 16” log, meaning 14” in reality. Finding firewood that size will be difficult and building a fire will be awkward.

 

[CreosoteCowboy]

We went through these same choices this fall when settling on a stove and install in our 1300 sq ft house.

We went with the Castine rather than the Nordic after seeing them both in person.

The difference in footprint between the two stoves isn't that great since the Castine sits an inch closer to the wall. The difference is mostly in a few inches of width.

The Nordic no longer comes in an enameled finish (at least in the US) so you need to enjoy the cast iron aesthetic. To me, the enameled Castine looks pretty great. If you're comfortable with black, one other stove I really like is the Morso 7110. It feels very well built in person, and the cost is only a couple hundred more than the Nordic.

As for hearths, we went with an Ember King sheet, mostly because it's the thinest option aside from cutting out the hardwood and installing tile flush. Our dealer said he can't get a glass pad big enough for the Castine. I'm not sure about the Nordic.

 

[SpaceBus]

We went through these same choices this fall when settling on a stove and install in our 1300 sq ft house.

We went with the Castine rather than the Nordic after seeing them both in person.

The difference in footprint between the two stoves isn't that great since the Castine sits an inch closer to the wall. The difference is mostly in a few inches of width.

The Nordic no longer comes in an enameled finish (at least in the US) so you need to enjoy the cast iron aesthetic. To me, the enameled Castine looks pretty great. If you're comfortable with black, one other stove I really like is the Morso 7110. It feels very well built in person, and the cost is only a couple hundred more than the Nordic.

As for hearths, we went with an Ember King sheet, mostly because it's the thinest option aside from cutting out the hardwood and installing tile flush. Our dealer said he can't get a glass pad big enough for the Castine. I'm not sure about the Nordic.

The Morso castings are also very high quality and don't have as much of a grainy texture as some other manufactures. Perhaps Jotul is equally as good.

 

[Rtsnamwolp]

These last few posts are definitely pushing me more towards the Castine. Also, the room it's in has windows on 2 sides and a sliding door on another. Measurements/site visit get taken later this week which should help direct us one way or another. If clearances need to be made greater, it may make me opt for the smaller stove as now the pad footprint will be taking over the room. I'm starting to think about flush installing our hearth to assist in making it less intrusive.

The morso's are nice, but the price is already up there with the jotul, anymore and the boss might start getting antsy

Thanks for the advice!

 

[SpaceBus]

These last few posts are definitely pushing me more towards the Castine. Also, the room it's in has windows on 2 sides and a sliding door on another. Measurements/site visit get taken later this week which should help direct us one way or another. If clearances need to be made greater, it may make me opt for the smaller stove as now the pad footprint will be taking over the room. I'm starting to think about flush installing our hearth to assist in making it less intrusive.

The morso's are nice, but the price is already up there with the jotul, anymore and the boss might start getting antsy

Thanks for the advice!

Something to remind the boss is that a pretty stove is nice in the summer and winter, well if you dare

 

[Woody Stover]

one other stove I really like is the Morso 7110.

Have you seen one in person. Their description says "Riddling grate system/shaker grate." I've heard of a couple grated ash systems that don't work as well as others. I would want to see their setup before I took the plunge.
Instead of cemented seams, they are gasketed. Seems like it would be an easier re-build, when the time came..

The morso's are nice, but the price is already up there with the jotul, anymore and the boss might start getting antsy

Something to remind the boss is that a pretty stove is nice in the summer and winter

Yep, spend a little extra now to get what you think is going to work the best, and what looks best, and be happy for a long, long time.
Enamel is so pretty...Hey, you could get a PE Alderlea T4.
begreen mentioned earlier the F45 and its convective, jacketed construction, which moderates direct radiation and instead heats air. The T4 has a cast iron jacket which buffers radiation and stores heat for later release. I just hooked my SIL up with a T5 and it's working out well. You can add a blower..not sure if that's a option with the Castine or Morso. But it's boxier and might stick out further..
They also have enamel steel stoves. https://www.pacificenergy.net/products/wood/