Just how are big is the anti wood smoke?

[elkimmeg]

well we had some fun in the BI forum, but I fear this is the tip of the iceberg. There is a lot more than this one forum. There is a MA chapter, that is very organized.

Today OWB are getting banned locally town by town. IT is not a stretch to see other forms of wood smoke being banned. The same sentiment that banned cigarettes and organisational
groups, are in place. It is my belief that we wood stove/ pellet and coal stove-burners, must act now. gather up public support, making a concerting effort to present that we are environmentally concerned. We burn clean and responsible. We are using resources readily available not taxing our forest, but through selective cutting we are enhancing the carbon neural foot print.
As technology advances we are burning stoves that are cleaner less smoke and now using even cleaner bio log/bricks. We know by using properly seasoned wood and developing good burning practices are burning cleaner. We know we are more conscience about maintance and safety

 

[Jim R.]

Elk,

I have been a lurker here for a year or so, but read here frequently. Currently burning a Napolean EPA wood insert 1401 (non-cat) with a full 16' SS liner with a proper blockoff plate. The first season has been a learning one, and I feel more prepared for next season. I will say that with nice dry, seasoned wood we have no visible smoke and the liner has looked good with only a little light creosote buildup. My wife has learned to run the stove well while I am at work and really enjoys the heat.

Now the good stuff. I live in Long Island, NY in a 6 BR ~40 year old colonial. Big house, 43 windows, and last year 200+ gallons/month of heating oil keeping the house very cool. This year, had the house warmer than ever, and had a delivery last week. Total for the season from Oct. to now is 308 gallons. This includes hot water for a family of 4. Huge difference, and has to be better than relying on oil as the sole source of heat and hot water. The stove, liner wood, and incidental install costs should be at the break even point by the middle of next season. I am burning wood cut down by the tree services locally, and have wood from my own property ready for next year. No neighbors have complained, and I keep the wood stacks out of plain site.

Here in Suffolk county, I have read about a ban or proposed ban on OWB's, but wood, pellet, coal and fireplaces were specifically left alone. So far, 2 of my patients have had inserts installed, and are raving about the clean heat and oil savings. I have had friends over, and they can't believe the heat output, then look at the chimney without smoke. Again, with the EPA stoves, it seems to burn no dirtier than the average oil system.

Jim

 

[DavidV]

I shall be banned to the ashcan post haste. It isn't just wood burning or smoking. It's firearms, trans-fat, fast food, large cars/suv's, .....the list goes on and on. IF I talk more about it, I'll be on a political rant.

 

[elkimmeg]

making a concerting effort to present that we are environmentally concerned. We burn clean and responsible. We are using resources readily available not taxing our forest, but through selective cutting we are enhancing the carbon neural foot print.
As technology advances we are burning stoves that are cleaner less smoke and now using even cleaner bio log/bricks. We know by using properly seasoned wood and developing good burning practices are burning cleaner. We know we are more conscience about maintance and safety

anyone want to add to or dress up a mission statement

 

[babalu87]

I fear that once big oil hears about this, if they havent already, we are all doomed. They will have their lawyers working for the "clean air" zealots and the clock will begin ticking.
The friggin OWB manufacturers started this whole mess, we should have been writing letters to them all along voicing our displeasure with their marketing and poor manufacturing.

 

[elkimmeg]

babalu87 If I remember correctly you purchased and used the bio bricks? how did that tuen out and where did you purchase them?

At first glance of you big oil claim I was about to dissmiss it then as I thought about it. What industry has the biggest influence and lobby in place

We all know satistics are flawed but here goes after Katrinia 500,000 wood/pellet stoves were sold and about the same number this year
8 to 10% of homes in USA use some form of wood heat. In no way are we a majority especially if anti smoke gets big oil behind them.
It was rumored that Mobil Exxon was going to get into pellet manufacturing..

That's one scary thought. It would not be the first time big oil crushed competition

 

[babalu87]

We purchased them somewhere on the 495 corridor from Middleboro to Marlboro. The wife was teaching nights and she picked some up one evening, I will have too look up where later. They charged WAY too much for them though, a place in Saugus has them by the ton for a reasonable price.
They worked great, I could line them in the stove and had just a little wiggle room on the base and stacked a few on top of that, burned all night. I may buy a ton for next year to have for those times when we get lots of snow and the wood gets buried etc.

 

[ansehnlich1]

I shall be banned to the ashcan post haste. It isn't just wood burning or smoking. It's firearms, trans-fat, fast food, large cars/suv's, .....the list goes on and on. IF I talk more about it, I'll be on a political rant.

I agree here and will be short in my reply. The environmental movement is facism in disguise. The attack on freedom loving people is undeniable.

Now, I agree Elk, I want to burn wood, and ain't nobody should be able to tell me I can't, especially as I am doing so responsibly. I ain't tellin' them they cant eat asparagus am I? Asparagus, what's that got to do with it, well, it causes gas, and, as a result, vegetarians are contributing to global warming.

 

[PAJerry]

Next big thing.....catalytic underwear!

 

[webbie]

Yeah, what ever happened to the Freedom like in Bhopal, India where we can build a factory and kill thousands and pollute the land? Whatever happened to the ability to be able to cut off the tops of mountains and completely clear cut the forests? And who ever thought of taking the 400 HP engines with quad carbs out of the family car and coming up with clean public transportation?

I tell ya, I feel more like I have chains around my ankles each day.

Luckily, we can still be "free" in certain places like Texas, La, Id, Montana, etc....and land is available at a good price. I would hope those who complain about having to live side by side with others put their money where their mouth is and move out there. After all, isn't the freedom to pollute one of the most important ones?

In all seriousness, some of you folks are just plain paranoid and I think some self-help books are in order...or watch The Secret...... but when it comes to wood burning, the good news is that we have a decent national trade group with full time government affairs people. The Pres of the trade group is an attorney....and these folks are located within sight of the US Capitol (in other words, they are lobbyists to a small degree).

They are on a first name basis with the EPA and have been working this beat for well over 20 years now. OWB's SHOULD be banned, so it is wrong - IMHO - to think that this is an attack on wood burning. It is an attach on STUPID burning!

In summary, all this is nothing new. Most of the battles have already been fought and won (with the help of clean technology). Certainly there are pockets of resistance, but some are deserving of such (air inversions, etc.). Rest easy, and go cut some wood....or send some donations to the HPBA for lobbying.

Most all "first" world countries have regulated sources of excess smoke and pollutions - and there is nothing wrong with that. The result IS less cancer and other disease and we can breathe easier - and that is not a plot!

My goodness, is everyone turning paranoid?

 

[babalu87]

Web, you dont think that it is PLAUSIBLE for big oil to figure out how to infringe upon wood burners? Their lobbyists ( we all know they are the "Oz" of DC) pursue manufactured products, bio-bricks, pressed logs, pellets and put their stamp of approval on it. Then the government realizes what kind of tax revenue they are missing out on and burning firewood becomes a thing of the past, next thing you know ole Jed is in PMITA prison for burning cordwood.
Paranoid, I wouldnt say that but I certainly find it plausible in the future.

 

[webbie]

Anything is plausible.......but this is highly DOUBTFUL. In other words, no reasonable person would place a bet on this one.

These are all niche markets and too labor intensive, etc. - even a massive industry like lumber/timber is quite diverse and not owned by big oil.

With oil, it is about profits - and oil costs almost zero to extract out of the prime fields and then sells for 60 a barrel. Oil is also tied very closely to war - no oil, no war machine! When tanks can be fueled by cordwood I might start to worry. Can you imagine airports with beautiful stacks of firewood? We could hire hearth.com pyros to be the "stokers" in the rear of the planes. Quick, thrown another log on the fire...we're coming in a little short of the runway!

Nah, come to think of it, I think it is paranoid.....

 

[elkimmeg]

Lets compare the lobbiest HPBA campared to the tobacco interest. All the money Tobacco had, tell me how that worked out? What were they defending smoke?

I wish what Web told us was true, most of it is. In his dealership was any product banned? 18 Towns in Ma now have Owb regulations with 15 more considering them
The common concern smoke. This is not a smoke screen it is happening everyday. It has made Sunday NY times Boston Globe Portland Maine and th list goes on and on.

There are two paths to take sit back as Web choses and let HPBA lobbiest resolve any issues Or start linning up the ducks in a row now. Get prepared. Personally I like playing
the game in the oppositions side of the rink, Not on the defensive, in my own end.. Folks home heating oil passed $2.65. You think for one minute ,HPBA stands any chance against the oil companies. Mobil/ Exxon gross revenues is enough, that it exceeds all countries,, but for 5 What are HPBA chances against Mobil/Exxon?

 

[babalu87]

Web did you become a Republican over the weekend?

All big oil would have to do is provide some $$ to the manufacturers already in place. Did you EVER in your wildest dreams imagine going into the grocery store and seeing DOLE on everything from Asparagus to Potatoes? They wouldnt have to build any plants or provide anything but a little $$
Big oil is happy because they have instantly diversified, the guy who owns the pellet/bio-brick plant is happy because he can ramp up production and maybe even build another plant and the government is happy because they get the clean air people off their backs AND get even more tax revenues.

Likely, I dont know but as Elk said towns are banning OWBs as we speak, even if they can clean up their acts and get the efficiency where it should be how many towns are likely to ever revisit the issue? Maybe the banning of OWBs isnt the start of something bigger or maybe its the tip of the iceberg?

 

[wg_bent]

One big difference in OWB's and Woodstoves/pellet stoves is that the latter are both EPA recognized and controlled, thus not as likely to be banned. The government agencies have a vested interest in monitoring and approving any devices. Cars, woodstoves, coal emmissions. IF all these things things were banned, the EPA would be out of business. I believe the EPA wants to work to improve all things, not ban them... it's their job.

 

[babalu87]

Warren they (EPA) would still have to monitor them if the fuel was processed (Bio-bricks, pellets etc.) Bad burning practices are part of where we are with OWBs and its probably the only reason the tin foil hat crowd at burning issues even exists.

 

[NewtownPA]

or watch The Secret......

I saw that film a few weeks ago. It's got some good ideas in it, especially for those who are worry-warts. That movie reminds me of what the Apostle Paul said: "I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want." - Philippians 4:12



Back to the original topic: I think it's futile to argue with folks who have already made up their mind about woodstoves polluting... it's like trying to convince a democrat to become a republican and vice versa.

 

[webbie]

I agree...

Elks query seemed to question how large the forces are that are lined up against wood burning...and I would say the answer is that most of their concerns have already been addressed at the state, federal and even regional level. OWB's and such are just a loophole - although one that, IMHO, is making us (the industry and good wood burners) look bad.

 

[keyman512us]

Web:

Yeah, what ever happened to the Freedom like in Bhopal, India where we can build a factory and kill thousands and pollute the land? Whatever happened to the ability to be able to cut off the tops of mountains and completely clear cut the forests? And who ever thought of taking the 400 HP engines with quad carbs out of the family car and coming up with clean public transportation?

I tell ya, I feel more like I have chains around my ankles each day.

Luckily, we can still be “free” in certain places like Texas, La, Id, Montana, etc....and land is available at a good price. I would hope those who complain about having to live side by side with others put their money where their mouth is and move out there. After all, isn’t the freedom to pollute one of the most important ones?

In all seriousness, some of you folks are just plain paranoid and I think some self-help books are in order...or watch The Secret...... but when it comes to wood burning, the good news is that we have a decent national trade group with full time government affairs people. The Pres of the trade group is an attorney....and these folks are located within sight of the US Capitol (in other words, they are lobbyists to a small degree).

They are on a first name basis with the EPA and have been working this beat for well over 20 years now. OWB’s SHOULD be banned, so it is wrong - IMHO - to think that this is an attack on wood burning. It is an attach on STUPID burning!

In summary, all this is nothing new. Most of the battles have already been fought and won (with the help of clean technology). Certainly there are pockets of resistance, but some are deserving of such (air inversions, etc.). Rest easy, and go cut some wood....or send some donations to the HPBA for lobbying.

Most all “first” world countries have regulated sources of excess smoke and pollutions - and there is nothing wrong with that. The result IS less cancer and other disease and we can breathe easier - and that is not a plot!

My goodness, is everyone turning paranoid?

Web...Paranoia? NAAGH! Just deep insight, thoughtfull discussion, and informed opinion.
Paranoia would best describe the anti-smoke crew. Paranoia would describe the "Overall American way of life today" (bird flu this, terrorism that,energy price roll-a-coaster,west nile pandemic..etc,etc,etc)
Besides...Maybe a little of the right 'PARANOIA' is in order. I like to think I walk the "center of the road" when it comes to woodburning. Those on either side...walking with me? YOU need to be brought more center...or lean to the other side...IMHO. Dismissing or "brushing off" the concern is a recipe for disaster. Whether you burn wood in a fireplace,stove, boiler, or OWB we are all on the same side...trying to heat our homes as responsibly as we can. "The other side" is taking aim and is ready to fire. The first to fall are OWB owners, next fireplace owners, non EPA stoves...EPA, then pellet burners. If you think it can't happen or won't...think again.
Let's look at HISTORY from a different perspective:
...In 1973 America got it's first "wake up call"...wood stoves(smoke dragons) became the rage...oil prices stabilized...woodburning petered out...1978-1980 Oil prices rise again...everyone is scrambling to stay warm new ideas come about...Then what happens? Our Saudi Arabian friends drop the floor on oil prices in the mid 1980's...say "BYE-BYE" to energy efficiency, smaller cars, alternative energy...and on and on. Mid to late 90's we are driving gas guzzlers, SUV's, the woodstoves haven't been fired up in years!....SEPT 11th, 2001...every American now realizes "The true cost of 'Cheap Oil'..." and is leary of what it has done to us...and just how far it can be trusted.
...Tell me I'm wrong so far? It is "Us vs. Them"...it's like a poker game...we have a few of the chips...the other side has "stacks". They ankle a little, then check...up and down up and down.
How popular is heating with wood going to be when heating oil costs over $3/gal? At $4/gal At $5... OWB's are the tip of the iceberg...they fuel the basic American desire to "beat the system"...the problem is "Big oil" can "force our hand". It is happening already. Over the last two years heating a home has gotten more expensive...People are buyin OWB's, old junk stoves, looking at better stoves etc. Wood prices are now up there??? Are they not? As more people shift to woodburning...the anti-smoke crew is going to do "Big-oils" job for them...or at the least "play right into their hand".

If that makes me "Paranoid" so be it...I'm Sick and ^ucking tired of being "taken advantage of"...If I'm leading the 'battle cry'...so be it! There is strength in numbers! The system is broken and somebody better damn well fix it!

The Profit of a few needs to be taken out of the picture...all need to live.

"Current Policy needs to change..."

 

[DriftWood]

I think anti smoke could be all of us.

Who wants to breath wood smoke. To be a clean wood burner is not as easy as throwing on the gas furnace. When I read about wood smoke, IT reminds me to burn cleaner.

To let industry self regulate did not work with OWB.

I see parallels in other American industry. DET Energy (Detroit Edison) could have already put scrubbers on the coal stacks to get the hundreds of pounds of mercury out of the environment annually. They say they are not going to until they are forced to by State and Federal regs.

WE can can make 50 MPG clean burn, autos, but did not. $3.00 a gallon has sent tons of bucks to Asian auto makers. With the big three struggling to come back.

The EPA moves slowly, OWB need to be cleaned up, and wood stoves can burn cleaner. Will industry lead, follow or be pushed to clean up the air we all breath.

 

[elkimmeg]

Katrina hits Fuel prices excalate rapidly, the reason refineries are taken out of service. Most companies would suffer sever losses. The Oil companies record record profits so high even they had a hard time trying to burry the money. You think they may have stuck it to the people consumers ? You think that is the only time? Our buddies the EPA right? Fnally 11 years no gas economy regulations for SUV. Finally they enact them in 2005 to go in effect in 2011? You think oil companies had a lobbiest or two in that decision?

 

[MrGriz]

Isn't the charge against OWBs led mainly by those who have to live in close proximity to one? Of course, the tin-foil hat crowd over at BI will also join in when they get wind of some community in protest, but I hardly think big oil is behind the regulations. As vast as we think wood burning is, since we are all very involved, it's only a drop in the bucket. Also, since it's not being pushed on a national level as an alternative fuel source, such as hydrogen or electric cars, it's largely off the radar of 'big oil'.

I certainly don't want to see my clean, efficient, alternative heat source put into jeopardy. I just don't think it has come to that extent yet. OWBs are singled out because they are easy to spot and do offend even those of us who heat with wood in a more responsible way. Everyone can drive down the road and point to the OWB belching out smoke and leaving a trail in the wind. After several weeks of non stop burning in my new insert this year, my neighbor (who burns an insert for heat also, another story) came over and asked me if everything was ok since he hadn't seen smoke from my chimney in the past couple of weeks. As I stood in my 72* house in shorts and a t-shirt with a cold beer while the snow and wind blew by outside, I took that as a compliment. With EPA compliant appliances and good burning practices I think we are a long way from having anything to worry about.

 

[webbie]

If that makes me "Paranoid" so be it...I'm Sick and tired of being "taken advantage of"...If I'm leading the 'battle cry'...so be it! There is strength in numbers! The system is broken and somebody better damn well fix it!

The Profit of a few needs to be taken out of the picture...all need to live.

"Current Policy needs to change..."

Your facts, IMHO, are 95% correct. Where I think the paranoia comes is becomes when we are swatting at insects (and larger animals) that are not there!

The way I see it, the problem is easy to find - we can just look in the mirror! It is US, as a whole, that throw out the woodstoves and the solar panels every time oil gets cheap for a few months.

The other stuff is just blips on the radar. When the American public wanted SUV's bigger and bigger, they got them. When and if the American public wants to conserve and change the direction of this country, we can do so just as easily.

The clean burning stoves of today are because of some leftists called the Sierra Club. Yes, they sued the EPA for not properly regulating the stoves - with the result being the standards and the cleanup. Yes, it hurt the industry badly - but it created an entirely new industry and class of stoves. We trounced Europe and the rest of the world in this technology.

There is always a need to listen to the other side - even when they are crazy. The folks at BI do have some valid points - especially the idea of sensitive people having to breathe smoke directly from their neighbors, etc.

So I guess I just don't see a plot - I see a bunch of interests all pushing in various directions....and, ugly as it can be, this is probably the best system.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Want to do damage, let them tax cordwood like they do other energy products. I've seen where they went after people who burnt free fry oil in their cars for taxes on their fuel.

If the govt sees a possible profit, they will tax.

Matt

 

[keyman512us]

Your facts, IMHO, are 95% correct. Where I think the paranoia comes is becomes when we are swatting at insects (and larger animals) that are not there!

Analogy wise...I prefer "Most people can't see the trees through forest...or the forest through the trees...depends on perspective"

The way I see it, the problem is easy to find - we can just look in the mirror! It is US, as a whole, that throw out the woodstoves and the solar panels every time oil gets cheap for a few months.

Very true...speaks volumes...The question is? Has it finally "sunk in" now is the time to "have options" instead of waiting unitl heating oil hits $4/gal.

I'm urging people not to use the words "Ban OWB's". Even if Tarm or any of the "reputable" boiler manufacturers put a "package stand-alone add on boiler" as a direct "drop in retrofit replacement" (which will never happen because of all the 'hype') people would not buy it... it could be just like an 'agri-cont' setup from Finland, 99% efficient, self loading...and even cook it's owners breakfast..the damage is done and irreversible...OWB's in wood terms..equals the Hindenburg in terms of hydrogen...damn shame too because the 'concept' is the best way to burn wood...in 'reality' it is a complete disaster.


"Woodburners" need to "get it together now"...because if you think its bad now (with OWB's etc)...just wait until all the old "smoke dragons" that haven't been used in 10 or 15 years get fired up...