Lack of heat from PE Summit LE Wood Stove

[FrozenVT]

Installed a Pacific Energy Summit LE pedestal wood stove in Jan 2021. Haven’t been super happy with it since. I can get the wood stove nice and hot and then keep the air open a bit and it works ok, but with the air opened up burn time greatly decreases. I’ll have a nice red hot coal bed going and the stove surface temp will only be around 300 degrees, I expect much more heat output from a nice hot coal bed. Our previous wood stove an old Vermont casting would crank out the heat with a nice hot coal bed. Even when cranked we aren’t impressed with the heat output of the stove. Where is our heat going? Up the flue? Should we add a flue damper? I’ve had several people tell me this is just the way new “EPA” stoves perform. We have about 2’ of 6” stove pipe coming out of the stove, then a 90 degree bend and a 6” to 8” adaptor and then a short section of 8” pipe that goes into our large chimney foundation and into a clay chimney that is roughly 40’ tall. The stove isn’t in the best location for the house, the house of a large “L” ranch with the stove in the basement of the corner of the “L”. The stove room is 15’ x 13’ with a large opening right by the stairs going up to the main level. We are lucky if we get the stove room over 80 degrees with the stove cranked. Once we have a nice hot coal bed the room will drop down to the low 70’s and the main level starts to drop into the 60’s. This will be only a couple hours after feeding the stove.

Any tips or things to check to get better performance from this stove? We bought the largest one we could locally and it’s never seemed to perform great. The house is large at 3000 sqft and we don’t expect it to be hot at the far ends of the house but we expect much better performance then we are getting. We are toying with adding a pellet insert in one of the fireplaces upstairs but I don’t want to give up on this stove as I believe it can perform better.

We burn hardwood that is dry. Split this past spring, stacked outside till November and then stacked inside. We try and Lee at least a week worth of split wood in the room with the stove to also help drying. No hissing or steaming from the wood when burning. If it was a wood issue I don’t think that would explain the lack of heat from red hot embers.

Thoughts, tips, tricks?

 

[begreen]

350º stove top at a later stage of the burn is not bad. What is the stovetop temp at the peak of the burn? What is the average time between reloads?

Most hardwoods need more than 4-5 months of seasoning time to be burnable. Oak can take 2 yrs after splitting and stacking. What species of wood is being burned? Has it been tested for interior moisture content?

The other possibility is that draft is an issue. Do you have a flue thermometer? If yes, what temps are you reading at peak secondary burn? (is this a surface thermometer on single-wall stove pipe or a probe on double-wall?) How quickly can you turn down the stove's air and how far can you turn it down?

Is the basement insulated?

Lots of questions, I know, but you are our eyes on the scene. The more details we get, the better folks can be at solving the dilemma. The Summit can put out a lot of heat. I know of a Summit LE and an Alderlea LE that doing a good job at whole-house heating of 2000+ sq ft. They are willing heaters.

 

[begreen]

I just checked our stove (an older Alderlea T6). It is at 11hrs into a full loading. The stove top temp is 375º. I will probably reload in an hour or so. This is burning douglas fir. The stove is heating a 2000sq ft old farmhouse with way too many windows. Outside temp was 37º at 8 am on loading and 43º now.

 

[FrozenVT]

350º stove top at a later stage of the burn is not bad. What is the stovetop temp at the peak of the burn? What is the average time between reloads?

Most hardwoods need more than 4-5 months of seasoning time to be burnable. Oak can take 2 yrs after splitting and stacking. What species of wood is being burned? Has it been tested for interior moisture content?

The other possibility is that draft is an issue. Do you have a flue thermometer? If yes, what temps are you reading at peak secondary burn? (is this a surface thermometer on single-wall stove pipe or a probe on double-wall?) How quickly can you turn down the stove's air and how far can you turn it down?

Is the basement insulated?

Lots of questions, I know, but you are our eyes on the scene. The more details we get, the better folks can be at solving the dilemma. The Summit can put out a lot of heat. I know of a Summit LE and an Alderlea LE that doing a good job at whole-house heating of 2000+ sq ft. They are willing heaters.

Thanks for the reply begreen.

Average reload time burning the day is around 4 hours to keep the house warm. Around 7-8 hours overnight.

Currently burning a mix of birch, maple, and ash. Exterior readings of around 10-16% just split some pieces and getting around 18-21% on the interior.

I was thinking a possible draft issue as well but am not knowledgeable enough on it. Never an issue starting a fire or getting smoke into the room. I have a basic flue temp gauge about 16” above the stove on single wall stove pipe. I currently have the stove at about 50% air and loaded it about 2hrs ago. The stove top is reading around 500 and the stove pipe is reading around 300. Getting some secondary burn. After loading the stove it takes about 15-20mins on high before I turn it down. I generally go to about 50% air during the day to try and keep the temps up and down to 25% overnight. Anything below 25% and the fire really dies down and the temps drop. The basement is insulated and about 80% finished.

I believe the stove is capable or heating our home better. Just not sure if the install has an issue, the stove has an issue, the wood has an issue or something else.

I attached a few photos of the stove, thank you for the help!

 

[FrozenVT]

I just checked our stove (an older Alderlea T6). It is at 11hrs into a full loading. The stove top temp is 375º. I will probably reload in an hour or so. This is burning douglas fir. The stove is heating a 2000sq ft old farmhouse with way too many windows. Outside temp was 37º at 8 am on loading and 43º now.

I am definitely not getting that type of performance. Once the main fire dies down my temps drop and secondary burn stops. 11 hours after a load I’ll have all ashed over coals and will probably need to add some paper to get a fire going again.

 

[MR. GLO]

If the stove is in a heated room or inside the home you cant compare the reload or temps to a basement stove that is uninsulated area and exterior chimney. Plus is all depends on how cold it is outside.

We need more information on what max temps you see on stt and flue. How much are you turning it down? is the stove fully loaded? Some complain the STT gets too high with this stove. I think that's stove is too small in basement for 3000. Find a jotul Rangeley.

I have the PE summit in the basement with a blower. 2000 sf. Stove runs better with 2 year or so always covered wood. I never closed my stove all the way down. My reload time is terrible. My draft is high. I have SS chimney on outside of home, going up the rear of house. I like the stove ad do which a bit longer burn times.

A flue damper would probably cause a dirty chimney. I dont use mine. it drops the temp to much in the chimney pipe. If you try a damper make sure your wood is a full 2 plus years covered. An insulated liner next time would be great. Have you cleaned the clay chimney yet to see how it looks?

 

[begreen]

What model was the VC stove? The main differences between the two are that the VC is a strongly radiant stove and the Summit is convective.

Thanks for the pics and temps. They are helpful. What are the peak stove and flue gas temps during secondary combustion? Ideally, the stovetop temp will be about the same or a bit less than the flue gas temp. Double the surface flue temp reading for the approximate flue gas temp. At peak, our stovetop is about 600º with these long burns. Your stove temps are not that far off.

I would try turning down the air sooner and perhaps farther. This will encourage stronger secondary combustion and more heat at the stove with less going up the stovepipe. Our air is 90-100% turned down during peak burn. When burning hardwood this might be more like 85-90%.

 

[MR. GLO]

I just checked my last burn ... my peak flue temp (probe) after reload was 646 with a stt of 559... Sometime I go higher (flue) on first light to clean chimney.

My peak STT was 678 with a flue temp (probe) reading of 590 . my home is 75 degrees (upstairs in middle) today and 31 outside. ive loaded a total of 3 times today. I started at 830 am.

my peak draft is .12

Definitely play with turning down sooner vs charring wood more and getting flue hot. Jut watch the STT on this stove it can creep an hour or so later. So i installed a blower on a remote switch.

 

[FrozenVT]

Thanks begreen and MR. GLO, I’m getting 600-700 degree flue temps on my single wall pipe with around 600 degree STT. It takes about 15-20mins to get to those temps after reloading the stove. At that point wood is generally glowing pretty red. If I turn down the air it seems to smother the fire and I lose secondary burn after a few minutes. Are you guys saying to shut down the air sooner?

Begreen, our old stove was a Vermont Casting Vigilant. It would get so hot we couldn’t stand to be in the room, the Summit has never done that. We do not have a blower on our stove, wasn’t sure it would do anything since the stove is in a 15’ x 13’ room.

 

[MR. GLO]

I think the older your wood the more you can turn down sooner and with less smoke out chimney. One full year wood (covered) is not prime, but it will work. I had wood in a shed (front only open) and it wasn't drying that great so I moved it to a shed with all open sides and covered.

Some days the draft and wind will determine my turn down level. Some manuals have a comment about the waterfall effect of smoke and flames on the glass when turning down to much. Put a black sharpie mark or pencil on the stove above the air inlet control and test it settings. Sometimes just a small amount makes a difference. When I go to bed and do a reload I do turn it down more but i can tell the chimney gets colder faster (at the adapter area). Maybe try 3 year old red oak and see if that helps. Double check your readings with temp gun. If my stove was upstairs in my well insulate home, center chimney and insulated, I think I would see results almost like Begreen. He has great results. Chimney cleanings will tell you what you can get away with. The good news is you dont have any smoke at startup inside.

 

[stoveliker]

40 ft of chimney. I'd seriously consider adding a key damper .

 

[begreen]

Thanks begreen and MR. GLO, I’m getting 600-700 degree flue temps on my single wall pipe with around 600 degree STT.

If you have not doubled these temps for posting here, then that is the problem. 6-700º surface temp, means 1200-1400º internal flue gas temp. It sounds like the tall stack is sucking up the heat badly. A damper in the stovepipe may be needed to tame the draft.

At that point wood is generally glowing pretty red. If I turn down the air it seems to smother the fire and I lose secondary burn after a few minutes.

That is ok, as long as some flame is present and persists. The fire will regain strength in 5 or so minutes.

Begreen, our old stove was a Vermont Casting Vigilant. It would get so hot we couldn’t stand to be in the room, the Summit has never done that. We do not have a blower on our stove, wasn’t sure it would do anything since the stove is in a 15’ x 13’ room.

Yes, the Vigilant is a highly radiant stove. Anything in line of sight with the stove is going to feel the heat radiating off of it. Much like the sun. If the side shields were removed from the Summit the effect would be similar.

 

[MR. GLO]

Didnt Frozen VT he take the measurement from the magnet gauge?

Begreen - What do you want the flue temp to get to on first load ? and a reload with this stove?

Id get a flue probe or check with ir temp gun. 1400 would seem very high on this stove.

The location you have your STT magnet - I dont think it is the hottest location on stove. mine is in front of the pipe about 3 inches and left or right , 3 inches. find it with IR. Id get stt up to 650 and see if you get more heat. but use ir.
Maybe some other pe summit owners can chime in with their operating temps.

 

[begreen]

Didnt Frozen VT he take the measurement from the magnet gauge?

Begreen - What do you want the flue temp to get to on first load ? and a reload with this stove?

Id get a flue probe or check with ir temp gun. 1400 would seem very high on this stove.

The location you have your STT magnet - I dont think it is the hottest location on stove. mine is in front of the pipe about 3 inches and left or right , 3 inches. find it with IR. Id get stt up to 650 and see if you get more heat. but use ir.
Maybe some other pe summit owners can chime in with their operating temps.

Yes, I just want to verify that these are surface temps on the stove pipe. I had mentioned the doubling in the previous posting. If they are the actual surface reading (and not doubled) then the internal flue gas temp of 1400º is very high. That's a lot of heat being wasted.
Our stovetop thermometer is about 6" to the left and 3 " in front of the flue collar.

 

[FrozenVT]

Yes, I just want to verify that these are surface temps on the stove pipe. I had mentioned the doubling in the previous posting. If they are the actual surface reading (and not doubled) then the internal flue gas temp of 1400º is very high. That's a lot of heat being wasted.
Our stovetop thermometer is about 6" to the left and 3 " in front of the flue collar.

Begreen, all my flue temps are not doubled and are the reading off the magnetic thermometer about 16” above the stove. Before I got the PE stove my chimney sweep was pushing for a SS liner. Since the PE he says my chimney is super clean, this makes sense give my high flue temps. I didn’t realize they were doubled! I just reloaded the stove and followed your EPA stove start up routine. The stove surface temp is currently around 575 and the flue surface temp is around 400. Should the flue surface temp be less?

You mention the stove is convection vs radiant which makes sense as to my the room doesn’t get as hot as the VC stove. Our PE does not have the blower fan, should we add that or have air blowing on the stove top?

Thanks for the all help, we really appreciate it!

 

[moresnow]

Your stove is designed to utilize a blower to strip heat and disperse it. It is very likely you would notice a very significant difference by installing the blower.
If you install the blower I recommend getting the stove up to cruising speed and (then) turn on the blower at its very lowest setting. Walk away for a couple hrs. Report back what your blower opinion is. Good luck!

 

[Woody Stover]

stove surface temp is currently around 575 and the flue surface temp is around 400. Should the flue surface temp be less?

My SIL has a T5, the next size down, but it peaks at around 700 stovetop with 375 or so on the flue surface meter about 12" up. Once she has secondary flames, she begins cutting the air in steps while keeping good secondary. When she cruises the stove, she's cut the air all the way and there is lazy flame coming off the wood with good secondary. The stack is 16', with Class A chimney pipe.
It sounds like you might be sending a good amount of heat up the flue, with those higher air settings. The fact that you say the flame dies when you cut the air low would lead me to suspect wood moisture, but 18-21% on the center of the freshly-exposed interior is good.. 🤔
When you test splits, try to select the biggest you have, and what you think will be the wettest. Stacked less than a year doesn't seem like it would be dry, unless it was something that was standing dead for several years, with the bark coming off already. Now, Birch and soft Maple will dry relatively fast compared to White Ash and especially Red Oak..

 

[Woody Stover]

Your stove is designed to utilize a blower to strip heat and disperse it. It is very likely you would notice a very significant difference by installing the blower.

Yep, once you can minimize the amount of heat going up the flue with a slow, hot fire in the box, the (quiet) blower will transfer some of that heat into the room before it can get to the flue.

 

[FrozenVT]

We have ordered the blower for the stove and will look at having a damper put in the flue. When we turn the air down it’s like the fire is struggling for air, which I don’t understand. On low air we get virtually no secondary air. I’ve read the gasket for the secondary air baffle is very fragile. Our baffle is removed during cleaning and I’ve never replaced that gasket. I check and there is no gasket there, I’ve ordered some to install and keep on hand. How much will the lack of that gasket impact the secondary air?

 

[FrozenVT]

Also most of our wood is birch, maple and dead ash. I’ll keep checking fresh splits and probably try some kiln dried wood to completely rule out any wood issues.

 

[Woody Stover]

gasket for the secondary air baffle is very fragile. Our baffle is removed during cleaning and I’ve never replaced that gasket. I check and there is no gasket there, I’ve ordered some to install and keep on hand. How much will the lack of that gasket impact the secondary air?

How much secondary air could be escaping there is hard to say. Do you see some secondary flame emanating from the back/center of the baffle where the air channel enters the baffle, indicating a leak there?
The flimsy OEM fiberglass gasket isn't very thick or durable. I've taken a piece of interam gasket and cut a rectangular hole in it, to seal that junction, but that stuff isn't very durable either. I have a piece of flat rope-type gasket in the T5 right now..
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...blanket-pe-baffle-gasket.190858/#post-2563461

 

[FrozenVT]

How much secondary air could be escaping there is hard to say. Do you see some secondary flame emanating from the back/center of the baffle where the air channel enters the baffle, indicating a leak there?
The flimsy OEM fiberglass gasket isn't very thick or durable. I've taken a piece of interam gasket and cut a rectangular hole in it, to seal that junction, but that stuff isn't very durable either. I have a piece of flat rope-type gasket in the T5 right now..
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...blanket-pe-baffle-gasket.190858/#post-2563461

The is some secondary flake back there but not much, I’m wondering if the secondary air tube is clogged somewhere. Even when ripping hot I don’t get a ton of secondary air. I tried using the 3/8 door gasket but I couldn’t get it to work, the air baffle would sit low enough to get the pin in. I even removed the stove pipe to push down on the baffle and could not get it to sit down enough to put the pin in.

 

[Woody Stover]

I’m wondering if the secondary air tube is clogged somewhere. Even when ripping hot I don’t get a ton of secondary air. I tried using the 3/8 door gasket but I couldn’t get it to work, the air baffle would sit low enough to get the pin in.

I doubt anything is clogging the secondary channel; It would take something pretty large. When the T5 is up to temp and going good at the beginning of the load, flames at the baffle are igniting at all the holes, front row, front/bottom row and the front-to-back row, and they are good-sized, several inches long. Not the case with your Summit?
Yeah, the 3/8" gasket might be too fat. See if you can get some flat gasket, not real wide at the farm store or stove shop. You might have to find something online if nothing is locally available. Or get some of the material Hogwildz mentioned, maybe at a kiln supply website or the like.
But that pin can sometimes be a little hard to align and get started, even without a fat gasket..

 

[Woody Stover]

I copy/pasted the name Hogwildz mentioned in that thread, and some stuff came up..Unifrax Fiberfrax.

 

[Woody Stover]

I just saw this thread in the PE forum addressing a similar issue. begreen mentions the insulation pieces that are on either side of the baffle. If these have been shoved out of position or have gaps, the smoke may be taking that "path of least resistance" to exit the box, instead of being routed all the way to the front past the baffle holes and burned. That would result in weak secondary and reduced heat output. I didn't read the whole thread yet, but it sounds like a possibility in your case..

PE Super 27 Baffle Gasket and Secondary Flame

Our Pacific Energy Super 27 was purchased in 2018. It has some secondary flames from the front of the baffle but mostly the secondary appear to be leaking from the rear of the baffle where it sits on the support. I cleaned the stove yesterday, removed the baffle and installed a new gasket...

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