liner installation confusion

[ptman]

so i have had 2 people give me quotes about putting in the liner for my exterior masonry chimney to attach to my insert (which i still havent picked out). both people have told me things that i didnt agree w/ and prices were completely opposite of each other. i will need a 25' liner and damper removal. flue size as best i can tell is 10" x 14".

the first stated he use pre-insulated liner, 316 ti. he said that a block off plate wasnt necessary. i dont understand that b/c w/o the block off plate, i am losing heat up the chimney (it just doesnt escape through the top)

the 2nd guy said he used 304L and that i didnt need insulation. he said he would insulate the bottom and the top of the liner but it wasnt necessary for the whole thing. he also said it may be possible to connect the insert w/o actually putting the liner down the whole chimney. he also said a block off plate wasnt needed and acted like was a little crazy for asking.

i live in a small town and these are the only 2 people around that i can find that do this. i dont like heights, especially on ladders but i have priced out renting a lift and a couple friends said they would help put it in. im leaning toward doing it on my own. but i have several questions about the different types of liners.

i also want to make sure that im correct in thinking that i do the the liner to insulated?

what is the real world difference b/w the different types of liners? i obviously want to put in the best i can but dont want to waste money on something that isnt really worth it.

are the pre-insulated liners that much easier to install and worth the extra money over just buying the insulation kit and putting it on?

is 1 brand better than the other? ive tried looking to see the thicknesses of several brands online and it isnt always listed.

thanks in advance for any advice

 

[bholler]

i also want to make sure that im correct in thinking that i do the the liner to insulated?

Yes it should be insulated for performance reasons and it is generally required to be insulated to meet code. That is because very few chimneys have the proper clearance to combustibles and if you don't it needs to be insulated for safety reasons. Also every liner i have read the listing for requires insulation when used for wood to meet its ul listing. And meeting that listing is a code requirement.

what is the real world difference b/w the different types of liners? i obviously want to put in the best i can but dont want to waste money on something that isnt really worth it.

For flex liners there are several different types. There is light wall mid weight and heavy wall. Really the only one i would say to absolutely steer clear of is the 2ply smooth wall stuff. For wood we almost always use 304 heavywall but for some stoves we have started using the midweight liners. Light wall will work fine but it will not last as long as the heavy wall. And as far as the alloy goes all you need is 304. 316 will be fine but it costs more.

are the pre-insulated liners that much easier to install and worth the extra money over just buying the insulation kit and putting it on?

I personally dont think it is worth it in most cases but that is up to you

is 1 brand better than the other? ive tried looking to see the thicknesses of several brands online and it isnt always listed.

Not really almost all manufacturers have different thicknesses but I would trust most reputable brands just stay away from the 2 ply stuff

 

[bholler]

They were both sort of right about the block off plate technically you don't need one (unless you do like the one guy said and don't run a full liner). But you are also right you want one it will make the system work allot better. And while it is still to code to do a direct connect where you don't run a full liner you don't want to do that either.

 

[ptman]

For wood we almost always use 304 heavywall but for some stoves we have started using the midweight liners. Light wall will work fine but it will not last as long as the heavy wall. And as far as the alloy goes all you need is 304. 316 will be fine but it costs more.


when you say heavy wall, are you talking about the thickness? i have found some 304L that is 0.018" thick and it is quite a bit more expensive than any of the 316ti i have found. most of the 316 ti i have found is either 0.005 or 0.006" thick. i know i am fairly early on my research of this but it seems like the online places i have found so far use mostly the same manufacturer.

 

[bholler]

when you say heavy wall, are you talking about the thickness?

Yes

i have found some 304L that is 0.018" thick and it is quite a bit more expensive than any of the 316ti i have found.

Yes because it is thicker than the .005 or .006 stuff. More metal means more money. But 316 is a more expensive alloy so a comparable liner in 304 will be cheaper.

i know i am fairly early on my research of this but it seems like the online places i have found so far use mostly the same manufacturer.

no there are allot of different manufacturers

 

[Lake Girl]

It may be worth it to get someone from a nearby town ... enter your zip code to see who is registered
http://www.ncchimneysweeps.com/

PS. CSIA is the association that bholler is affiliated with. Just pay attention to the symbols that indicate what they are certified for ... some are just dryer vent installation; others do masonry repairs, etc. (two pages should show up)
(broken link removed to http://www.csia.org/directory/results/results.aspx?Distance=50&Latitude=35.7595731&Longitude=-79.0192997)

 

[ptman]

there is only 1 csia certified sweep in the area and the closest one on ncchimneyweeps is 100 miles away. the csia guy has already been out. wasnt impressed. that's the bad thing about living in a small town

 

[ptman]

one other question. when you say the that the heavy flex will last longer, what time frame are we talking and how would it wear out? i dont want to have to replace anything in the next 10-15 years

 

[Lake Girl]

Hopefully bholler checks back in - Could try a starting a conversation with him... begreen is another good resource for info.

 

[bholler]

one other question. when you say the that the heavy flex will last longer, what time frame are we talking and how would it wear out? i dont want to have to replace anything in the next 10-15 years

That depends on way to many variables. I have seen light wall burnt out in 2 or 3 years and seen it last 20+ years. But i have also seen heavy wall and rigid burnt out pretty quick to. It all depends on how you use it and how you clean it.

 

[ptman]

ok, thank you for all the advice. it seems like the standard around here is to use the thin walled stuff based on everyone i have talked to. i've pretty much decided on doing it myself so i will most likely buy the heavy flex, just wanted to make sure it was worth the little extra $. this forum is a great place to come for all things related to wood burning and i the responses are always positive

 

[bholler]

ok, thank you for all the advice. it seems like the standard around here is to use the thin walled stuff based on everyone i have talked to. i've pretty much decided on doing it myself so i will most likely buy the heavy flex, just wanted to make sure it was worth the little extra $. this forum is a great place to come for all things related to wood burning and i the responses are always positive

I think it is worth the extra money many do not. You have to make that decision yourself. That is pretty much all we use because we want every liner we install to last at least 30 years and I am not confident that the light wall stuff will do that for a wood stove. But the regular light wall is not a bad product it works well for many people.

 

[quotejso]

It's not that hard to get the liner in especially in a big opening like your chimney.

 

[bholler]

It's not that hard to get the liner in especially in a big opening like your chimney.

Some times it is that hard even in a big flue. As long as it is straight you should be ok though

 

[ptman]

i definitely want to put in the best that i can so that i dont have any problems or have to re do it in a few years. i think we've decided to get the hearthstone clydesdale and im pretty sure im going to put in the heavy flex. it will the same cost to me as the light flex would cost to buy and have someone put in. i priced the rental of a lift today and it is not bad at all for a 50' lift so that should make things a lot easier. we have a lot going on in the next few weeks but im hoping i can get this done in the next month or so before it gets too hot down here.

 

[quotejso]

i definitely want to put in the best that i can so that i dont have any problems or have to re do it in a few years. i think we've decided to get the hearthstone clydesdale and im pretty sure im going to put in the heavy flex. it will the same cost to me as the light flex would cost to buy and have someone put in. i priced the rental of a lift today and it is not bad at all for a 50' lift so that should make things a lot easier. we have a lot going on in the next few weeks but im hoping i can get this done in the next month or so before it gets too hot down here.

Did you look at the woodstock soapstone stoves?

 

[ptman]

Did you look at the woodstock soapstone stoves?

i may have missed something on their website but i didnt see any inserts. i also didnt see a dealer anywhere close to me and my wife wants to be able to see it in person before we buy

 

[begreen]

Woodstock doesn't make inserts. They sell direct, no salesroom other than the factory. The Clydesdale is a nice insert. In that same size you might want to look at the Enviro Cabella 1700 and the Pacific Energy Neo 2.5.

 

[quotejso]

i may have missed something on their website but i didnt see any inserts. i also didnt see a dealer anywhere close to me and my wife wants to be able to see it in person before we buy

Oh I missed the insert part. You look at those new blaze kings. Look nice but pricey.

 

[ptman]

a friend of mine went up and looked at the top of my chimney to measure for top cap and the flue is only 6 1/2 x 10 inside measurements. this is an exterior masonry chimney. based on those measurements, insulation will not work and it is going to be a tight fit for the 6" liner. is this still possible to put the liner in w/o the insulation and everything be ok? im not willing to spend the money to have the tiles broken out. im feeling my dream of having a wood insert slip away. my wife is happy that we may have to go with gas logs though. thanks for any further advice

 

[begreen]

Breaking out the tiles is not an uncommon solution, but in lieu pf that an option would be to put in an ovalized liner.

 

[ptman]

is breaking out the tiles something that can be done diy? the prices i got for just a basic install were pretty high ( at least to me). i cant imagine how much more it would cost to break out the tiles. it just doesnt make sense from a cost standpoint to spend > $5000 to put in a wood insert. while i love the idea of it and think it would cut our heating bill down some, it would never make up that difference here where we live. the winters just arent that bad here

 

[begreen]

Yes, some have done this themselves. What are the particulars for the current estimate?

 

[ptman]

one quote was $2500 for install. he said nothing about it being a tight fit. he said he thought it was 10 x 14

the other 2 people said that insulation was required anyway and they didnt normally use insulation on an exterior masonry chimney unless the homeowner specifically wanted it. nobody went up to the top of the chimney to actually measure it though. thats why i did it. i was going to order the liner and buy the insert this weekend but wanted to make sure there werent going to be any problems with it fitting and make sure of the length

 

[ptman]

if the insulation isnt a requirement, then i should be good. i know it will be a tight fit and make it a little tougher to get the liner down. but no project here at this house has ever been easy so that's no surprise