List Of Downdraft Stoves?

[Peter B.]

I wonder how many 'true' downdraft wood stoves (not boilers or furnaces, but stoves) are being marketed today... ones that actually burn off volatiles through the coals?

Anyone have a list... and/or links to flow diagrams or construction details? (Bonus points for leads to multi-fuel units).

I know of only two at the moment... the Sedore and the Dante... but neither are very well promoted or documented.

In my wildest dreams, I imagine designing and building a downdraft gasifier wood stove... not something to hide in the basement or outdoors, but one you wouldn't mind in your living room.

It's just a late winter pipe dream... but it's been hounding me for a number of years now.

Thanks.

Peter B.

-----

 

[Hanko]

as far as Iknow the dutchwest brand which is actually a division on Vermont Castings is a downdraft stove

 

[mikeathens]

as far as Iknow the dutchwest brand which is actually a division on Vermont Castings is a downdraft stove

All of the VC "Neverburns" (including dutchwest - I had the misfortune of being duped into using one through advertising hype for a few months) are complete garbage and a waste of natural resources (both in manufacturing and using). There are other manufacturers out there that, as far I know, have had better success, but I am not familiar with the brands...

 

[webbie]

VC, Dutch, Avalon, Lopi, Harman (Oakwood).....are probably the only real EPA living room downdrafts.

Sedore is a limited production downdraft model originally from Canada.

I'm not familiar with any others. After all, if these are having such big problems, it is doubtful that they will be copied!

In terms of downdraft R&D;, lots of it has been done - both in old times (1800s) and in the 70's and 80's. I doubt you will be able to reinvent the wheel in this regard, because there has been lots of pretty good minds and budgets applied to it.

 

[Hanko]

as far as Iknow the dutchwest brand which is actually a division on Vermont Castings is a downdraft stove

All of the VC "Neverburns" (including dutchwest - I had the misfortune of being duped into using one through advertising hype for a few months) are complete garbage and a waste of natural resources (both in manufacturing and using). There are other manufacturers out there that, as far I know, have had better success, but I am not familiar with the brands...

pretty strong staement guy. Maybe before you called my stove junk you might have checked my signature to see what I have. My son, brother, myself and one neighbor all have dutchwest stoves.

 

[mikeathens]

Hanko, don't take it personally. If it is working for you, then it's all good. A lot of people drive Yugos and they're perfectly happy.

 

[raybonz]

as far as Iknow the dutchwest brand which is actually a division on Vermont Castings is a downdraft stove

All of the VC "Neverburns" (including dutchwest - I had the misfortune of being duped into using one through advertising hype for a few months) are complete garbage and a waste of natural resources (both in manufacturing and using). There are other manufacturers out there that, as far I know, have had better success, but I am not familiar with the brands...

pretty strong staement guy. Maybe before you called my stove junk you might have checked my signature to see what I have. My son, brother, myself and one neighbor all have dutchwest stoves.

I have an oldie dutchwest here and it still runs well.. 20 years and many years left..

Ray

 

[webbie]

Ray, we should clarify......

Only newer dutchwests - and only the non-cat cast ones - are downdraft. Many other Dutch models are cat or updraft (steel inserts, etc.). In general the other models have had very few problems, but there are a lot of folks who had a tough time with the newer ones. There are hundreds...if not thousands of posts on these forums dealing with the problems and solutions.

Many experienced burners here - including those who had other VC models for 20 years, have have problems with the newer models - some of these folks ended up selling them and replacing with other VC models or even other brands.

We also have some wiki entries and even a video by Tradergordo on proper operation of these stoves. They run completely differently from updraft models, so some education is in order.

 

[raybonz]

Ray, we should clarify......

Only newer dutchwests - and only the non-cat cast ones - are downdraft. Many other Dutch models are cat or updraft (steel inserts, etc.). In general the other models have had very few problems, but there are a lot of folks who had a tough time with the newer ones. There are hundreds...if not thousands of posts on these forums dealing with the problems and solutions.

Many experienced burners here - including those who had other VC models for 20 years, have have problems with the newer models - some of these folks ended up selling them and replacing with other VC models or even other brands.

We also have some wiki entries and even a video by Tradergordo on proper operation of these stoves. They run completely differently from updraft models, so some education is in order.

Craig,
When you say downdraft do you mean the tube type air systems that burn from the top down? In my opinion wood stoves are finicky critters that all have some sort of learning curve some steeper than others..
Lots of helpful people here and I try to contribute if possible. I have noticed some do tend to bash some products and some are very biased because they own a certain stove.. To each his own is my policy.. It doesn't matter what brand or style of stove you have what matters is we're all about alternative heating ..
One final thing is that there isn't a day yet since I've found this site that I haven't learned something! This site would have been great 20 yrs. ago when I fought this stove unfortunately I didn't have the net til 5 yrs. later..

Thanx for a great site!

Ray

 

[bwolfe1]

Downdraft or cross draft stoves don't have to be finicky? One just has to do things differently than conventional stoves, like starting the fire differently, and the operation is also different but once you get the hang of it, its easier than the others. If the fire doesn't go the first time you just throw in more kindling and try again. No pulling out everything and starting from scratch. Certian downdraft crossdraft stoves, that have a 12 plus hour burn time on one load, and there's noh need to start them except when the heating season starts. All the finicky stoves I have are collecting dust in the shop where they belong. To many stove today are over engineered and don't need to be so finicky, but we as consumers think everything needs a microprocessor to controll it, and a catlyst to reburn the smoke. How about htis novel idea, burning the fuel before it gets to the stack to achieve that perfect burn? If a product is simple, and works great the way it is, then leave well enough alone, and keep the over engineers away. I've had barrel stoves that would kick the chit out of most I see today, and I don't think we need rocket scientests to redesign stoves that already work great? We are headed for tough times in the future and stoves that are simple, efficient, and versitile are going to bein big demand. The sooner folks realize that Uncle Sam isn't going to wipe they're runny noses, and certianlly won't be there checking the emmisions of they're stoves, much less providing food and shelter, will be the one's able to fen for themselves, and make it through what we are all facing. Our government has been feeding us chit sandwiches for way to long and now we all think that Uncle Sam will be there to bail us out? I have the feeling there will be some very rude awakenings coming in the near future and as citizens we have to adapt. Sorry I got off on a tangent there and far from the topic of downdraft stoves but just had to get that out. Thanks for allowing me to speak my mind.

 

[daleeper]

Downdraft or cross draft stoves don't have to be finicky? One just has to do things differently than conventional stoves, like starting the fire differently, and the operation is also different but once you get the hang of it, its easier than the others. If the fire doesn't go the first time you just throw in more kindling and try again. No pulling out everything and starting from scratch. Certian downdraft crossdraft stoves, that have a 12 plus hour burn time on one load, and there's no need to start them except when the heating season starts. All the finicky stoves I have are collecting dust in the shop where they belong. Too many stove today are over engineered and don't need to be so finicky, but we as consumers think everything needs a microprocessor to controll it, and a catlyst to reburn the smoke. How about htis novel idea, burning the fuel before it gets to the stack to achieve that perfect burn? If a product is simple, and works great the way it is, then leave well enough alone, and keep the over engineers away. I've had barrel stoves that would kick the chit out of most I see today, and I don't think we need rocket scientests to redesign stoves that already work great?

Above quote snipped some.

If the barrel stoves worked so well, where are they now? For some reason, insurance companies and inspectors don't seem to like them. I haven't seen any company emulate them with a manufactured and marketed stove that they have spent the money to ul list and epa test. Vogelzang has a stove kit, but nobody else is selling anything like a barrel stove. If the market was there, someone would fill it.

It doesn't take rocket science to burn a stove hot. It does take some engineering to control combustion in a way that it can be used without burning the house down. Burning a stove wide open will keep the chimney from getting plugged with creosote, but creates other problems. Controlling the burn so that the house will stay comfortable through a wide range of outdoor temperatures, have a longer burn time, burn cleanly without plugging the chimney with creosote, without much effort, and to do it all safely is where the difficulty factors in. Most stoves fail at providing the exact amount of heat needed for a house at any given time, in particular on the coldest days of the year, and during those "shoulder" weeks where the house needs heat, but not much. I say let the engineering continue.

 

[Todd]

Does the Sedore even have a UL listing or has it been run through the EPA test? Not legal to install without I believe.

 

[TMonter]

too many stove today are over engineered and don’t need to be so finicky, but we as consumers think everything needs a microprocessor to controll it, and a catlyst to reburn the smoke.

Engineering doesn't mean electronic control. I've done engineering on 1903 HRT riveted drum boilers to improve combustion without adding any electronic controls. Properly engineered stoves are a good thing, not only are they safer and lower emissions, but they burn longer and more reliably.

 

[daleeper]

I wonder how many 'true' downdraft wood stoves (not boilers or furnaces, but stoves) are being marketed today... ones that actually burn off volatiles through the coals?

Anyone have a list... and/or links to flow diagrams or construction details? (Bonus points for leads to multi-fuel units).

I know of only two at the moment... the Sedore and the Dante... but neither are very well promoted or documented.

In my wildest dreams, I imagine designing and building a downdraft gasifier wood stove... not something to hide in the basement or outdoors, but one you wouldn't mind in your living room.

It's just a late winter pipe dream... but it's been hounding me for a number of years now.

Thanks.

Peter B.

-----

burning the volatiles thru the coals without adequate O2 will result in incomplete combustion & lots of CO[clear & odorless] in the exhaust. a simple analysis of the "smoke" exhaust for CO will tell the real story of efficiency from the sedore which i have yet to get a reply on. ehhausting CO thru clear smoke from chimney is a great idea= the neighborhood wont complain for a while anyways. methane from wood pyrolisis will not combust fully with inadequate O2.

Pook,

I've seen you post this a few times in relation to downdraft stoves, and I need a little education. Is this strictly a function of the airflow within the stove specific to downdraft designs, or will high CO exhaust occur in any stove that is starved for air? For example, when in the shoulder season, and the air supply is cut down, and the fire is smoldering? Of course this creates extra smoke/creasote, but does it also elevate CO levels in the exhaust?

Thanks.

 

[TMonter]

Of course this creates extra smoke/creasote, but does it also elevate CO levels in the exhaust?

Yes. But combustion temperature is also an issue. CO has a "Sweet Spot" between 800 and 1300 degrees for formation. Temperature and O2 content play a large role in its formation.

 

[bwolfe1]

Downdraft or cross draft stoves don't have to be finicky? One just has to do things differently than conventional stoves, like starting the fire differently, and the operation is also different but once you get the hang of it, its easier than the others. If the fire doesn't go the first time you just throw in more kindling and try again. No pulling out everything and starting from scratch. Certian downdraft crossdraft stoves, that have a 12 plus hour burn time on one load, and there's no need to start them except when the heating season starts. All the finicky stoves I have are collecting dust in the shop where they belong. Too many stove today are over engineered and don't need to be so finicky, but we as consumers think everything needs a microprocessor to controll it, and a catlyst to reburn the smoke. How about htis novel idea, burning the fuel before it gets to the stack to achieve that perfect burn? If a product is simple, and works great the way it is, then leave well enough alone, and keep the over engineers away. I've had barrel stoves that would kick the chit out of most I see today, and I don't think we need rocket scientests to redesign stoves that already work great?

Above quote snipped some.

If the barrel stoves worked so well, where are they now? For some reason, insurance companies and inspectors don't seem to like them. I haven't seen any company emulate them with a manufactured and marketed stove that they have spent the money to ul list and epa test. Vogelzang has a stove kit, but nobody else is selling anything like a barrel stove. If the market was there, someone would fill it.

It doesn't take rocket science to burn a stove hot. It does take some engineering to control combustion in a way that it can be used without burning the house down. Burning a stove wide open will keep the chimney from getting plugged with creosote, but creates other problems. Controlling the burn so that the house will stay comfortable through a wide range of outdoor temperatures, have a longer burn time, burn cleanly without plugging the chimney with creosote, without much effort, and to do it all safely is where the difficulty factors in. Most stoves fail at providing the exact amount of heat needed for a house at any given time, in particular on the coldest days of the year, and during those "shoulder" weeks where the house needs heat, but not much. I say let the engineering continue.

I’m not promoting the barrel stove as an engineering marvel, but just comparing simplicity with complexity. I apologize for the four letter words, but I was a bit irate about folks on the site ripping old Dick Gallien, without even knowing him or his situation, or his stove?
The stove does control the desired temperature well simply by reducing the air in. This does not mean that it’s plugging up the stack because even at the reduced level there is still a lot of air going in. I’m not going to go into detail of how the stove works because nobody believes it anyway. What I can say is that the smoke and gasses are pulled through the coals which are extremely hot and doesn’t go to the secondary chamber until they are light enough to be sucked under the cast baffle which separates the front chamber from the rear. It also puts out an amazing amount of radiant heat when you want or need it and very little when you don’t all by controlling the air intake. It’s just that simple from an operational standpoint. What it does internally is the same as catalyst stoves, only it does it with out the catalyst. This in my opinion is a remarkable engineering accomplishment. I am not at all against engineering; I’m just against the engineering that makes a woodstove into a finicky beast which needs constant attention to achieve comfortable temperatures, and stating that there are some that aren’t finicky.
I also want to make folks aware that it real easy to pick out the bad points of any device, but if the good outweigh the bad then its probably better than most? As an engineer myself I’ve been trying to figure these stoves out myself for almost six years, and still haven’t come up with a scientific explanation that makes sense in my logical brain. When I do I’ll be sure to share it but until then I’m going to just enjoy it knowing that it is truly an engineering marvel which makes it very unique and one of kind. Seeing is believing, and if you don’t believe what I’m saying then try to keep an open mind a make the effort to see one in action before making any judgements.

 

[bwolfe1]

Does the Sedore even have a UL listing or has it been run through the EPA test? Not legal to install without I believe.

Yes the stove has ULC Approval, no epa certification. This has not been a legal problem as the air intake ratio is enough to make testing not required and it is also a furnace, not designed to heat one room. The stove is made for heating a entire home or other building/facility. Again seeing is believing and I do believe there is one close to you?

 

[bwolfe1]

Ray, we should clarify......

Only newer dutchwests - and only the non-cat cast ones - are downdraft. Many other Dutch models are cat or updraft (steel inserts, etc.). In general the other models have had very few problems, but there are a lot of folks who had a tough time with the newer ones. There are hundreds...if not thousands of posts on these forums dealing with the problems and solutions.

Many experienced burners here - including those who had other VC models for 20 years, have have problems with the newer models - some of these folks ended up selling them and replacing with other VC models or even other brands.

We also have some wiki entries and even a video by Tradergordo on proper operation of these stoves. They run completely differently from updraft models, so some education is in order.

Craig,
When you say downdraft do you mean the tube type air systems that burn from the top down? In my opinion wood stoves are finicky critters that all have some sort of learning curve some steeper than others..
Lots of helpful people here and I try to contribute if possible. I have noticed some do tend to bash some products and some are very biased because they own a certain stove.. To each his own is my policy.. It doesn't matter what brand or style of stove you have what matters is we're all about alternative heating ..
One final thing is that there isn't a day yet since I've found this site that I haven't learned something! This site would have been great 20 yrs. ago when I fought this stove unfortunately I didn't have the net til 5 yrs. later..

Thanx for a great site!

Ray

Ho-ray for Ray as I agree with his optimistic view.
Thanks

 

[bwolfe1]

too many stove today are over engineered and don’t need to be so finicky, but we as consumers think everything needs a microprocessor to controll it, and a catlyst to reburn the smoke.

Engineering doesn't mean electronic control. I've done engineering on 1903 HRT riveted drum boilers to improve combustion without adding any electronic controls. Properly engineered stoves are a good thing, not only are they safer and lower emissions, but they burn longer and more reliably.

Bingo, I agree whole heatedly.

 

[bwolfe1]

Burning the volatiles thru the coals without adequate O2 will result in incomplete combustion & lots of CO[clear & odorless] in the exhaust. A simple analysis of the “smoke” exhaust for CO will tell the real story of efficiency from the sedore which I have yet to get a reply on. exhausting CO thru clear smoke from chimney is a great idea= the neighborhood won’t complain for a while anyways. Methane from wood pyrolisis will not combust fully with inadequate O2.

Pook,
I’ve seen you post this a few times in relation to downdraft stoves, and I need a little education. Is this strictly a function of the airflow within the stove specific to downdraft designs, or will high CO exhaust occur in any stove that is starved for air? For example, when in the shoulder season, and the air supply is cut down, and the fire is smoldering? Of course this creates extra smoke/creasote, but does it also elevate CO levels in the exhaust?
Thanks.
Yes. But combustion temperature is also an issue. CO has a “Sweet Spot” between 800 and 1300 degrees for formation. Temperature and O2 content play a large role in its formation.
Pook, Please tell me how I can get this test done? If its fairly inexpensive, I’d be happy to do so? Please also explain wood pyrolisis? I don’t have a good understanding of this?
Thanks
Bruce

 

[bwolfe1]

Pook,
I appreciate the info and I'm looking for Monoxer at the present time as I'm curios myself. One thing I can say is that the stoves are pulling in a lot of air as you can hear its suction. I realize this is pretty crude but that's all I can say about the air intake right now. After five years I'm still trying to figure out these stoves, as it seems to be PFM? When I get some results form the testing I'll post them?