Looking for a "soft" radiant stove - PE Summit, Jotul F600, or ???

[moosetrek]

As posted in my last topic, we have a new PE T6 that replaced an Englander 30NC. The 30 was too intense, and the PE is, after some frustration, followed by education, contemplation, and insulation, now heating our 900 sq ft home well. Though it's only 20 degrees at night, so a true test is yet to come. We expected more radiant heat than the Alderlea offers (or more correctly, we underestimated the feeling of a convective stove). The stove does exactly what it says, offers a great amount of gentle heat. I think we're looking for a little less gentle heat, but not the level of the Englander. I know this is sort of a goldilocks deal, but before we pursue returning a 580-lb stove with the associated financial hit, I figured I'd try to ask the right questions. I hate to even think about it, but that's just too much money to be unhappy with the purchase, and we plan to have this stove for a good 10-15 years including in a much larger house within a year or two - 2000 sq ft or so. Wood will be our sole heat source. After the excellent level of customer service from PE, we'd like to keep with that company if feasible, but have added a couple stoves for feedback and how they compare to the T6.

The stoves we would consider so far include:
1. PE Summit - does it have enough more radiant heat that it's noticeably more than the T6? If so, this is our #1 choice. No one has a model in stock, or hooked up.
2. Jotul F600 - can a small fire be liveable in warmer temps with it?
3. Lopi Liberty - probably the same as the Englander - steel stove, to intense radiant heat?

So far, we love the PE construction, burn times, and operation. I have read almost every thread and review I can find on the Summit, and the F600, etc. Hands down, the Summit is our preferred alternative to the T6, but only if, as a steel-clad stove, it will offer noticeably more radiant heat while not driving us out of the room like an all-steel stove. The Jotul also has a great reputation, and if the cast iron is a slower-to-heat-and-cool stove we would consider that too. We have a dealer that will work with us on the T6 toward either the Summit or the Jotul, but as mentioned we want to know better before we pursue this as getting a new stove is a pretty big deal to us and we don't have any ability to see them in action.

Thanks as always for the candid advice-

 

[fraxinus]

My own choice for a new stove came down to the PE T6 and the Jotul F600. The Jotul was my final choice and I am generally very happy with it. The F600 puts out a lot of radiant heat. If you like that sensation of baking on a cold day, it's a great choice. Jotul's instructions are very clear that the most efficient operation requires a stove top temperature of 400 to 600 degrees. Even at the lower end, that's a lot of heat. In a small area, a very well insulated house, or in the spring/fall seasons it may be too much for comfort. In a large open area, it would probably be fine. The only other thing I would add is that this stove really requires very dry wood, at least until you get the stove top up to a minimum of 400. I don't mean that you can then burn green wood, but you can add wood that is below the optimal 20% or less moisture content.

 

[summit]

I have had both in my house, and the PE is a far more "gentle" unit in that respect... The Jotul would cook me outta the room it was in, but the strictly radiant style of that stove didn't move alot of air around to the outer reaches of the house, wheras the PE's convective style kept the overall temp thru the house much more even... It would depend on the layout... If its a big open area (like my father's house, where my old F600 currently resides) then the Jotul is pretty effective... If its chopped up into hallways and several rooms (like my floorplan), the PE is the better choice...

 

[moosetrek]

Do you still get good radiant heat off the summit, or are the sides touchable at all times? That's I think the biggest thing we miss with the PE - it's nice to sit in the same room as the stove, but we would like a little more noticeable warmth off the sides (where my lazy chair is going...)

 

[Todd]

Lopi Liberty. It will be less intense than the NC-30. You will get both radiant/convective heat and they have that cool bypass for smokeless reloading and quicker start ups.

 

[Martin Strand III]

MooseT:

The "amount" of radiant heat you get from any stove is dependent mainly on two things:
1. The size of the stove (surface area of metal heated) - larger stoves can put out more radiant heat than smaller stoves and
2. Surface temperature of the stove - hotter surfaces give off radiant energy (a sine wave) of higher amplitude than cooler surfaces

If you want "less" radiant heat, choose a smaller stove (less surface area) or build a small (but 'hot') fire in a larger stove (cooler surface temperature).

Hotter surfaces, compared to cooler ones, with higher amplitude energy waves tend to heat air molecules easier which accounts for the more rapid creation of convection heat from most (comparatively hot) metal stoves; sometimes called "indoor weather". So with a hot metal stove, you get the "double whammy": more radiant heat and more convection heat.

That's the story and I'm sticking to it.

Aye,
Marty

 

[Pagey]

Lopi Liberty. It will be less intense than the NC-30. You will get both radiant/convective heat and they have that cool bypass for smokeless reloading and quicker start ups.

+1. The Liberty is a damned fine, quality heating machine. It will be more convective than radiant, as it is fully jacketed with side and rear heat shields. I'm using it's little brother, the Endeavor. Compared to a pure radiant stove, the Lopi models are definitely more for convection. If you want to move that convection further and/or help it along, add the blower. We just did, and I'm in the process of "beta testing" it now. You can get pretty low clearances with the Liberty as well, in case that's an issue with you.

 

[iceman]

you lmow i have followed both threads...... but one more suggestion before you give up on the t6........... why dont you put a kettle or teapot on top of the stove... if you have it going hot enough now,, adding humidity to the house will give you that "warm" feeling.... i often take humidity for granted .. until i ask myself why does it feel "cool" in the house but the thermostat is at 74? sure enough my humidifier is empty and so are my kettles! i usually have 2 kettles directly on my stove.... once you bring up the humidity you will feel a lot warmer... so before you throw in the towel on the t6 run it with kettles/tea pot on the stove so you can get more humidity in the air... my area for the stove to heat is ~2500+ sq ft and with running a humidifier 24/7 + filling 2 kettles about everytime i load the stove up - generally keeps my house between 35-45 % humidity ... and of course when it is 45-55% (from cooking which will also get temps to 78-80) i have to open windows as it is just unbearable... i mean its just so hot even my mil from florida was reaching to open a window and where she stays there is a pellet stove in her area and when she visits the temp is 78-80 of dry heat! so again humidity makes a huge difference.... but try not to go above 50% unless your house is real drafty if it is well insulated "tight" like recently built homes are keeping it above 50% for extended periodes of time can allow mold to grow ... but if the house is just average on insulation you shlnt have a problem, once again i try to keep mine 40-50% but its so hard as my stove is 60' from the farthest room ..... but as i recall you are looking for more punch and this will def make the area around the stove feel a lot warmer... and you will also be able to use the convection of the stove for better whole house heat

and if that fails any one of the stoves you have listed are exceptional and have good reviews....... but if you like pe why would leave--- if it were me i would get the summit

 

[moosetrek]

Thanks for the suggestions - I stopped at a shop to look at the Liberty, but they were out. They did have a quadrafire 5700, which is also jacketed. Maybe I'm just being too picky and need to grab a couple more beers and sit in front of the dang one we got!

 

[begreen]

Do you still get good radiant heat off the summit, or are the sides touchable at all times? That's I think the biggest thing we miss with the PE - it's nice to sit in the same room as the stove, but we would like a little more noticeable warmth off the sides (where my lazy chair is going...)

Go ahead and move the chair near the stove. That is one of the advantages of the T6. You can have a chair close by and not worry about it spontaneously combusting. Try it and I think you'll find the heat, just right.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Thanks for the suggestions - I stopped at a shop to look at the Liberty, but they were out. They did have a quadrafire 5700, which is also jacketed. Maybe I'm just being too picky and need to grab a couple more beers and sit in front of the dang one we got!

I understand your frustration. But, I think before you buy another stove you need to nail down all the problems you have with your current setup. Otherwise you may run into the same problem again.

Additionally, I was also frustrated with the Intrepid (I had several threads on this subject), but I kept tinkering, I kept asking questions, and after a BUNCH of different setups I have finally got it producing decently. And if I can tighten up the window in the kitchen a little more it should do even better.

So, yeah, grab a beer, sit in front of the stove and watch it burn. Feel the air move (cuz, it's going somewhere). where is the heat going? Where are the drafts coming from? What is the blower doing? Set a fan on low and put it in different spots in the room and around the stove.

But, just buying another stove won't solve the problem. What will you do if you buy another stove and the same problem happens again?

 

[Bigg_Redd]

As posted in my last topic, we have a new PE T6 that replaced an Englander 30NC. The 30 was too intense, and the PE is, after some frustration, followed by education, contemplation, and insulation, now heating our 900 sq ft home well. Though it's only 20 degrees at night, so a true test is yet to come. We expected more radiant heat than the Alderlea offers (or more correctly, we underestimated the feeling of a convective stove). The stove does exactly what it says, offers a great amount of gentle heat. I think we're looking for a little less gentle heat, but not the level of the Englander. I know this is sort of a goldilocks deal, but before we pursue returning a 580-lb stove with the associated financial hit, I figured I'd try to ask the right questions. I hate to even think about it, but that's just too much money to be unhappy with the purchase, and we plan to have this stove for a good 10-15 years including in a much larger house within a year or two - 2000 sq ft or so. Wood will be our sole heat source. After the excellent level of customer service from PE, we'd like to keep with that company if feasible, but have added a couple stoves for feedback and how they compare to the T6.

The stoves we would consider so far include:
1. PE Summit - does it have enough more radiant heat that it's noticeably more than the T6? If so, this is our #1 choice. No one has a model in stock, or hooked up.
2. Jotul F600 - can a small fire be liveable in warmer temps with it?
3. Lopi Liberty - probably the same as the Englander - steel stove, to intense radiant heat?

So far, we love the PE construction, burn times, and operation. I have read almost every thread and review I can find on the Summit, and the F600, etc. Hands down, the Summit is our preferred alternative to the T6, but only if, as a steel-clad stove, it will offer noticeably more radiant heat while not driving us out of the room like an all-steel stove. The Jotul also has a great reputation, and if the cast iron is a slower-to-heat-and-cool stove we would consider that too. We have a dealer that will work with us on the T6 toward either the Summit or the Jotul, but as mentioned we want to know better before we pursue this as getting a new stove is a pretty big deal to us and we don't have any ability to see them in action.

Thanks as always for the candid advice-

If you're building a new house in 2 years and plan to transplant the stove, I'd continue tightening up your place and gutting it out with the T6.

FWIW - I live in a milder climate (but it's still plenty miserable) and my Spectrum Classic can run me out of my mid-80s, no insulation in the vaulted ceilings having 1350 sq ft house and it's 2/3s the size of the T6/Summit.

 

[moosetrek]

I guess I should clarify- the windows and insulation have, I believe, fixed the problem. The T6 offers plenty of heat for the house (at this point). I'm really trying to find a stove that will offer more radiant heat, which is what we want more of, but still not be completely overkill. We looked at a Quadrafire 5700 yesterday that was burning in the store; it has jacketed sides but there was still a more noticeable heat off the step-top. I think the lack of radiant heat on the T6 is due to the complete encapulation in cast iron, even the top with the trivets closed. I wasn't sure if the summit, with exposed steel top, was a slightly more radiant stove, but the consensus seems to be they are the same. So I think we're considering the 5700, as the T6 is just not making us as happy (though heating the place quite well now) as I'd hoped. And we're sizing the stove for approximately 2000 ft sq, 15-20 ft ceilings, assuming we can figure out how to build our log home in the next year or two; in a slightly colder and snowier climate. Any feedback on the Quad 5700? Seems a beast of a stove, and I love the deep firebox for NS loading.

 

[snowtime]

Well I think your fooling yourself if you think you can get a stove to be efficient and heat 2 very different size homes. I would stick with the T6 and see if you can get it working even better because your next stove might not work in the new house either and you are just wasting money.
I live in a log home in real cold country. You mentioned that your T6 glass faces a big window or wall of glass. I am thinking if you turn the T6 so its not facing that wall of glass you will be surprised at what a difference it makes. Its like some stoves in uninsulated basements, most of the heat goes to heating the concrete not the house. You can also set your T6 in the new house so its not wasting heat through a glass area. Also most heat their homes by reaching 700 or 750. Have you tried consistent temps over 800. Even the sides of the T6 start putin out some serious heat.

 

[moosetrek]

I appreciate the suggestions- as mentioned, I have fixed the heating problem. House is well in the 70s with no problems, and I think the next cold snap will not impair that. The problem now is we just plain don't like the convective heat it puts out. We miss radiant heat, and while i understand that the T6 will generate some, running it at 800 to get a radiant heat from the cast sides is great in -10 or -20, but does nothing for the 20 degree evenings we have now - having it at 85 in the room just so we can feel radiant warmth while reading by the stove is overkill. We're looking for something that will give more radiant heat at lower temps, but still crank the BTUs at higher ones. There is no way to move or turn the stove in its location - and it's no longer necessary after covering the windows. The next house will be designed and built around a big wood stove, we don't plan to need a different from whatever we end up with here.

I guess we figure we have a lot of money tied up in something we don't enjoy, and while getting the house warm is the final goal, I could do it more cheaply with a high-efficiency furnace. We like wood heat for the same reasons everyone on here does, and kind of want a woodstove that feels more like a woodstove. I,m sure we'll take a hit on the return, sale, trade etc., that's the price we pay for our folly... Research after the fact is always expensive. But at least we'll have a stove that will make us more satisfied when we look at it (and it's the center of our home).

Nothing at all against the T6, it's an amazing stove; just not really our cup of tea. That said, we're looking for ideas or experiences on other big stoves that are not quite so convective. Thanks all and warm wishes-

 

[snowtime]

Well I think I have figured out what you want [I hope]. The issue is soft radiant. Its well known thats exactly what a Soapstone stove is. I would try to find a local shop with soapstone. They are beautiful stoves and might just be what you are looking for. Good luck.

 

[begreen]

Well, you may break Carpneil's and my record for exchanging stoves . Just kidding.

I think something like a Jotul F600 or a Quadrafire Isle Royale is what you are looking for.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Well, you may break Carpneil's and my record for exchanging stoves . Just kidding.

I think something like a Jotul F600 or a Quadrafire Isle Royale is what you are looking for.

Blaze King or an Equinox.

 

[PapaDave]

MooseT:

The "amount" of radiant heat you get from any stove is dependent mainly on two things:
1. The size of the stove (surface area of metal heated) - larger stoves can put out more radiant heat than smaller stoves and
2. Surface temperature of the stove - hotter surfaces give off radiant energy (a sine wave) of higher amplitude than cooler surfaces

If you want "less" radiant heat, choose a smaller stove (less surface area) or build a small (but 'hot') fire in a larger stove (cooler surface temperature).

Hotter surfaces, compared to cooler ones, with higher amplitude energy waves tend to heat air molecules easier which accounts for the more rapid creation of convection heat from most (comparatively hot) metal stoves; sometimes called "indoor weather". So with a hot metal stove, you get the "double whammy": more radiant heat and more convection heat.

That's the story and I'm sticking to it.

Aye,
Marty

Marty,
Good story. You SHOULD stick to it.
Not to jack the thread, but I can't help but notice your avatar. Are those Landseers? We've got a big black baby that's almost 10.
Sweetest dog I've ever had, and LOVES the water.

 

[summit]

Do you still get good radiant heat off the summit, or are the sides touchable at all times? That's I think the biggest thing we miss with the PE - it's nice to sit in the same room as the stove, but we would like a little more noticeable warmth off the sides (where my lazy chair is going...)

sorry, been busy last few days: yes you still get radiant heat, from the top, and the front... the sides not so much... you can touch the sides, but you would not want to hold your hand there more than a couple seconds.. but as far as the radiant heat, the front and top is mostly where you get that.
My dog will lay in front of that thing, and after a while get up an come over for a pet. His fur gets so warm its almost uncomftorable to pet him. The marble hearth in front is not something you wanna stand on in your bare feet for too long when running it full bore. However, we can still hang in that room and not be blasted out (even though is approaching 80+ at times inside the 16x24 living room area.. we have two archways and an open doorway that lead to the rest of the house from there, makes a nice convection to the rest of the home) wheras with the Jotul running hard, it got uncomftorable because the room is not huge and you were always w/ 8 ft or so of the thing.... Not to knock the Jotul, but it needs a larger room to reside in.. burn times were @10-12 hrs topped out (like my summit).. it works well for my father, as it is an open downstairs with a center chimney. The Kitchen, LR and DR are all open to each other with on 1 wall where the stairs are. That thing is positioned on an angle to the stair wall in the middle, so its able to be an effect 280 degrees of open space to blast out the heat all over.

 

[Hogwildz]

So the 30 was too much heat, the T6 is not strong enough heat. Man, make up your mind. Gonna call you Goldilocks for now on.
Do you have a blower on the T6? Maybe that will make up for the lack of "feeling" the heat, as it will put some serious hot air off the stove.
Might be something to consider before you go buy yet another stove. You wanna feel that heat, sit in front of that glass and you'll feel it. Put you SPF 90 on first.
Instead of jumping from stove to stove, wasting money, try and make what you have work for you first. With the 30 you could have bought the side shields which might have lessened the overpowering heat also.
Take some Ritalin, do a lil more research and experimentation before jumping ship a third time to go buy another stove.

 

[moosetrek]

Well I think we're going to try the blower. Our dealer has graciously offered to swap for a Summit if we pay shipping, but I think if the T6 with a blower won't do it then neither will a Summit. The T6 was heating OK until this past weekend when we had a couple breezy days (30-40 mph). The wind coming through the windows was too much for the hot air off the T6, and we were having a hard time keeping it up to temp at 30F outside (15F with wind chill). Fixing the windows is not an option for about 2 yrs, so not much we can do about it as we need to be able to open them. The stove runs great, I can see the heat waves off the top and it'll hit 750 easy. Only other issue is it doesn't seem to hold a burn @650 very long (1 hr tops), but I think might be too little hardwood or too small of splits. I checked the door and tightened the latch as suggested since it almost failed the dollar bill test on the top latch side.

Based on consensus here, the blower seems to help immensely and we'll give it a try and see how much difference it makes. If it works as suggested, we should be OK and really enjoy the stove. If it's still not keeping up, we'll go from there...!

 

[begreen]

Put some clear plastic over the windows if they are that leaky and caulk all the way around the window trims with a clear caulk. Gotta stop leaking like a sieve.

FWIW, I'm not convinced that a blower on the stove is going to make a big difference. There's simply too much leakage.

 

[summit]

I think we talked on the phone 2day... 'bout a blower for your T6, I think it'll go a long way 4 you... and also look into doin something 'bout those windows... sux to throw your $ out them things heating a drafty house.

 

[begreen]

Sorry Summit, didn't know you were the seller. For us, running the blower to our T6 doesn't make a dramatic difference. It could just be the layout of the place. With an open floorplan, at 40 degrees it does help bring up the whole house temperature quicker, just not hugely so. I tried it this weekend and found that it brought the house up 4 degrees in temp (66 to 70) in 30 minutes instead of what usually takes about an hour. But you could be right if circulation is what they need. It may work better on the Summit where the little side blocks direct the output more over the stovetop, but it doesn't increase the stove's btu output which is what is being lost. That is more heat to replace what is being blown right out of the house.

Give me a day with a caulking gun and some clear plastic and I bet I could affect a major change.