Looking for new insert - Blaze King?

[TheAdmiralBurns]

Hello everyone!

This is my first post here. I just moved to a new home and am shopping for an insert. I have some experience with a free standing wood stove from my old home.

My new house has 3600 sq. ft, the downstairs where the stove will be is approx 2600 of that. I'm NOT looking for whole house heat, but rather supplemental heat downstairs. The existing fireplace is a masonry fireplace and the chimney is 30'

My question is as follows. I have always longed for the regulated, extended burn times offered by a Blaze King. I am planning to buy an Ashford 25 insert from Blaze King. That said, the more I read, based on posts on another forum, it seems that Blaze King inserts have nowhere near the extended burn times of their free standing stoves, and that most users are getting 10 hours, maximum, with 7-9 hours being more common (on low temp setting).

Given the fact that the primary reason I was looking at Blaze King was the extended burn times, I'm beginning to wonder if it is worth the additional maintenance of a catalytic when the burn times are perhaps not actually extended as compared with simple secondary burn systems. As an example, my wife loved the look of the Vermont Castings Montpelier 2.

I'd love to hear any feedback from Blaze King INSERT owners on this forum, which is perhaps a more experienced wood burning forum, regarding the real world burn times they are experiencing.

Thanks in advance for your comments, I'm very close to to "pulling the trigger" and just want to confirm that I'm making a good decision!

Best,
Burns

 

[stoveliker]

I don't have an insert.
But I can say this: with 30 ft of flue (get it lined with an insulated liner), you'll have too much draft. That'll cut into the burn time (too) - for any insert you put in.

So when planning for this, you will need to add at least 1 key damper. Possibly even two. That requires planning, for one, and even more for two dampers.

Also, if the flame visuals matter, any extended burn on a BK would give a poor show, as no flame will be visible. (Though the overdraft may change that to having always some flame - but this is a bad thing if you want extended times with low output.)

I would avoid any insert that's an easy breather in your case.

 

[kborndale]

BKs can get the long burn times when burning at a lower heat rate like you would do in the fall and spring. Once it's really cold outside and you have to turn the thermostat up high they don't get the same burn time. With any modern stove the most important thing is to have good dry wood which requires wood to have been split and stacked for at least a year.

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

Thanks for the replies.

I definitely understand the importance of dry wood and will be rotating and properly seasoning my wood. I just moved here so I ordered the first two cords already, seasoned from a reliable source. At the same time I'm stacking fresh cut wood for years to come.

I don't mind running it higher during the day for additional heat and to achieve the fire visual - I'm more interested in extending burn times for overnight. I used to struggle in my old house with my old stove. If I put enough wood into it for an overnight burn to stay toasty, I was always worried about the temps running away...having a thermostat device is very compelling to me in this regard.

Thanks for the note about key dampers - I'll discuss with the installer / dealer.

Which inserts are an "easy breather", which are not? Thanks.

 

[begreen]

BK stoves shine when the heat output is lower and running them low and slow is a win. They are well made and supported. However, 2600 sq ft is a large area, especially if high ceilings and large windows are involved. In that case, the end game is more heat. When pushed hard, the BK insert times come down to that of secondary burn stoves in the realm of 8-10 hrs. For that reason, an insert with an extra cubic foot of capacity could be a better fit. The Osburn 3500 has a 3.5 cu ft firebox and is an easy breather. That is, it will work on a shorter flue system of 12-13'. Many Canadian stoves (Regency, Pacific Energy, Osburn) can be considered easy breathing.

A 30' high flue is likely to be an issue for any insert due to extra strong draft. Here's a good thread on a fellow who lost his Regency insert due to overfiring on a tall flue, and how he eventually tamed it with a new PE Summit install.

Thread 'Initial Draft Readings for Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert - Cause for Concern?'

Oct 3, 2022

Hello.

I have all the instrumentation for the new Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert up and running. I have some initial readings from a fire today, just to see how things are woking. It is 50 degrees outside and no wind. With my prior installation my draft was very high (measured > 0.2) and contributed to the failure of my prior install.

My initial readings of draft after getting a ~3/4 loaded box up to a steady cruise, gas path temp at a steady 850ish degrees F about 7 inches up the flue, show that the draft still at 0.15, greater than the max recommended by Pacific Energy of 0.10...

• davidmsem
• Replies: 129
• Forum: Pacific Energy

 

[BKVP]

OP, is "downstairs" a basement? If it is, how will combustion air be made available for the insert?

To your question about burn times:

The SC25 and AF25 inserts are trapezoid in shape. This was done to maximize the amount of FBV. There are many other inserts that follow that same concept. In recent meetings with EPA to discuss FBV, industry was asked "do users have fuel of varying lengths in order to get as much fuel into the stove as possible?"

When you address burn times, there are those that consider a full load 3-4 pieces of wood. Then there are those (like we've had laughs about here) that play wood stove Tetris. Being in PA, you will have, hopefully, the benefit of good quality hardwoods. With higher density, your input of Btu's will be higher that say someone burning softwoods, like pine. Total Btu input divided by burn rate = burn time (=/- a bit for appliance efficiency). Ask the local dealer his or her experience.

To really get lots of heat into your home, you could also consider an insert that sits partially onto the hearth. We make the PI289 and KUMA and others also make what is termed a hearth heater. No only are they much better a radiating heat into the living space, but they will do a better job than a flush insert in the event of loss of power. Ours and other also have the benefit of a square or rectangular firebox. This would translate to a opportunity to load wood pieces all the same length and maximize FBV use.

Inserts are highly dependent upon fans to project warmer air further into the home.. The two BK's you mentioned do have dual fans and move a lot of air, the PI29 has a single fan, moves less air. All inserts that I know of can run without fans in the event of power outages.

None of the flush inserts would avail them selves to a kettle to warm food or add a steamer, whereas a hearth heater may.

Food for thought.....

BKVP

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

BPVP:

Thanks for the feedback. The "downstairs" is the ground floor. We do have a basement as well, temps are very stable down there.

I like the idea of a hearth heater and your statements make perfect sense, so thanks for putting it out there. That said, the wife acceptance factor (WAF) was MUCH higher on the Ashford 25...in brown enamel. In this case, aesthetics matter.

Your guess is right on the hardwoods, I have several acres worth of hardwood just begging to be cut and split.

Do you have any comments on the need (or lack thereof) for a key damper?

 

[BKVP]

BPVP:

Thanks for the feedback. The "downstairs" is the ground floor. We do have a basement as well, temps are very stable down there.

I like the idea of a hearth heater and your statements make perfect sense, so thanks for putting it out there. That said, the wife acceptance factor (WAF) was MUCH higher on the Ashford 25...in brown enamel. In this case, aesthetics matter.

Your guess is right on the hardwoods, I have several acres worth of hardwood just begging to be cut and split.

Do you have any comments on the need (or lack thereof) for a key damper?

If you follow my posts, I am consistent in responding to questions surrounding dampers of any sort.

Wood heaters are to be installed and operated "as tested" and "according to the Owner's Manual" per Federal regulations. We are being read by regulators.

I will say that there are thousands of our products installed on long chimney systems. Long being 30+ feet.

I'm fairly confident that in most instances our thermostat can control the draft often associated with long chimneys.

The complication with our units, strictly due to higher efficiencies is accumulation in the top most part of the chimney and cap. This requires regular maintenance or sweeping of the chimney. This can be costly and inconvenient at times.

Units that are less efficient have higher stack temperatures are therefore are most likely less prone to accumulation at the furthest end of the stack; all variables be equal.

Lots to consider and I'll advocate for plenty of consideration and review before making a decision.

More food for thought.

BKVP

 

[Dieselhead]

On reload I get into the .20s on my permanently mounted manometer therefore I run a key damper until stack temps (which influence draft) get under control. My stack is 25’.

 

[kborndale]

If I had a chimney that was over 25' I would definitely have a key damper. They are inexpensive and I'd rather be safe than sorry. Nothing worse than watching your stove hit 800 and continue to climb while there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

Thanks for the comments thus far.

I'm curious about "High Efficiency Fireplaces" such as those from Ventis or Valcourt. How does these compare with wood burning inserts given a "retrofit" situation like mine?

Thanks.

 

[crstrode]

Admiral Burns;

My desires for an insert was very similar to yours. Auxiliary and backup heat being the primary. My house is an old drafty one with very high vaulted ceiling on the main floor, and a daylight walkout basement downstairs, Not really a basement, since only one wall is partly below ground level. Existing masonry fireplaces on both levels had not been used by the previous two owners. Chimney is about 30 feet from basement floor level.

Floor area downstairs is about 1300 ft. Upstairs about 2600

Downstairs is where we put the insert. The Blaze King Sirocco (SC25) went in about 4 years ago. I burn mostly Ponderosa pine. Why, you may ask? Living in a Ponderosa Pine forest leads me to that as my fuel of choice . . .

I LOVE the Blaze King Sirocco insert! It is beautiful, puts out a lot of heat, and is easy to operate. A full load of pine will burn all day and keeps the basement warm and toasty - great for the dog and my cold blooded better-half. I must go upstairs for an occasional respite from the tropical temps down here. 8 hours is about the length of a typical load, after that time I just open the damper, open the cat bypass, turn off the fan, and put a few logs onto the red-hot coals.

The next morning, even though the fire appears to be completely out, merely loading it up again with some logs will bring it back to life in short order without kindling.

As some others have noted, the fire box volume of the Blaze King inserts is much less than the free-standing stoves. This (and only this) is what accounts for the lower burn times. The trapezoidal box shape, does indeed make it easier if log lengths are at the optimum 16-18 inches. I, however, do not let that stop me from using wood 20-24 inches in length. These longer ones are reserved for reloads and are easy to stick into the front side of the firebox onto an already blazing fire.

As a kid, I was charged with keeping the stoves and fireplaces burning in a big old farmhouse . This included daily removal of ashes, chopping and splitting many MANY cords of wood, and ricks upon ricks of kindling. Catalytic stoves and inserts are wood misers and squeeze every possible BTU from the fuel. Ashes still need to be removed, however it is much MUCH less frequent than with a wood gobbling fireplace.

The Blaze King is NOT a high-maintenance appliance. Don't believe what anti-catalytic whackos would have you believe. I have dismissed suggestions of a catalytic stove in the past, but now I would not consider anything else!

Again - buying the Sirocco insert has been a real stroke of luck. it is uncommon for a blind hog like me to stumble onto such a perfect acorn

 

[BKVP]

Completely different products. First, we must define fireplace. Industry informed EPA that "fireplaces" are not heaters. They are decorative and used on special occasions. EPA accepted that then made it clear in order to not be regulated for emissions, they would define "fireplace". This includes no ability to adjust burn rate, no efficiency calculations nor BTU's. Also a minimum square inches of glass doors (if so equipped). Literature must not suggest that a fireplace is a heater.

Then you have fireplaces that do have variable burn rate, efficiency and BTU's calculations etc. These are termed "wood heaters" and are tested using U.L.127 test method (safety) and M28R (emissions). Some of these have the ability to duct heat into other rooms, almost always have glass doors for viewing and tested using all Class A chimney systems.

Fireplace Inserts are placed inside either a masonry fireplace or inside a factory built fireplace. With vast improvements in emissions reductions, they have become very efficient and as such generally require a liner or insulated liner in order to operate to peak performance.

U.L. Standards Committee has only recently addressed the need for standards using masonry chimneys in connection with solid fuel heaters. This new, just published standard is U.L.1390 and in the next 12-24 months, you will see fireplace inserts touting compliance with U.L. 1390.

U.L. 1391 is in process. It is a standard to instruction installers on the proper installation of solid fuel heaters in connection with factory built fireplaces. As a member of the U.L. Standards Committee, I believe there are yet significant issues that need to be addressed before the standard is drafted, circulated for peer review and published.

If I missed something you were looking for in particular, just post your question and I'll try my best.

BKVP

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

Then you have fireplaces that do have variable burn rate, efficiency and BTU's calculations etc. These are termed "wood heaters" and are tested using U.L.127 test method (safety) and M28R (emissions). Some of these have the ability to duct heat into other rooms, almost always have glass doors for viewing and tested using all Class A chimney systems.

That is the sort I intended to ask about. Are these designed to work with an existing masonry fireplace or a new build only. What would be the disadvantage as compared to an insert?

 

[BKVP]

Fireplace inserts are intended to be used in fireplaces. Generally, inserts go into existing masonry fireplaces and sometimes, with manufacturers approval, factory built fireplaces.

Fireplace inserts are vastly more efficient than regular masonry or factory built fireplaces. Disadvantages of inserts are:
1) Appearance as most open faced fireplaces are nice looking.
2) Inserts typically result in shorter lengths of fuel.
3) If blowers are included they can be loud.
4) Costly due to need for liner (insulated adds more cost. Plus labor to install.)
5) Reduced viewing area as glass doors are smaller.

Keep in mind, fireplaces pull all the air from the living quarters and the chimney socks it in for combustion and outside it goes.

If you need a Fireplace insert, then you need decide upon which type. Flush mounted or extended (called a hearth heater). Flush inserts benefit mostly with the use of blowers, which when power goes out, don't work; good reason to buy a generator.

Hearth mounted heaters (wood and pellet both) protrude out in front of the face of the Fireplace to provide radiant heat. This design is beneficial during power outages.

 BKVP

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

So just so I'm clear - if I were looking at a zero clearance high efficiency fireplace, I would need to have my existing fireplace ripped out and there would be some kind of rebuild process to install the zero clearance high efficiency fireplace. Is that correct?

If so I can only imagine significant additional expense.

Thanks

 

[begreen]

Yes, replacing a fireplace is a costly process. A good EPA ZC fireplace is not cheap and the infrastructure work can double the costs or more depending on how it is finished out. Total costs in the $10-15,000 range are not uncommon. That said, a full masonry fireplace replacement can be very labor intensive and expensive too.

What is currently in the house, ZC fireplace or a masonry fireplace? What are its dimensions? (pictures welcome)
Would a freestanding stove be an option so that the fireplace remains untouched?

 

[jbart]

My PI29 gets 17-18 hour burn times with ash. That is not even dialed back all the way. Temps right now are in the mid to low 20s during the day and I am seeing 13-14hr burns keeping a 1400 sqft house at 71 at the opposite end of the house and 77 in the main stove room. I have a 17ft chimney. 1970s build so insulation is fair but not stellar.

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

I have an update. I ended up doing some additional research and finally deciding on the Ashford 25 insert, and it was installed yesterday. I only have 24 hours experience with this insert (I've owned three different stoves in the past at other homes). Prior to install I had very low expectations because I had seen some mixed reviews. I'm just going to speak for myself here. Keep in mind that my expectation going in was just a "supplemental" heat source.

I am thrilled with two things in particular. First, the amount of heat I'm getting out of the insert. Second, the nice overnight burn I had last night. This house is 3600 sq. ft. not including the basement, and for the last 24 hours I've been keeping the whole house adequately warm on this insert. I've had the HVAC off since yesterday at approximately 2pm, so almost 24 hours now. Last night temps got down to about 15 F outside my house and are currently around 25-30 this afternoon. The main living area is at 74. The "other side" of the main floor is between 64-68...but it's 64-68 wood heat, and it's perfectly adequate for our needs. I'm wearing a t-shirt and I'm comfortable. The upstairs even is at 65, which is just fine especially during the day. This is just far beyond what I anticipated.

Last night at 10pm I filled the firebox and turned the thermostat down low (not all the way down though, it was within the "active" zone) and this morning at 7:30am I had orange coals and some larger pieces of wood around 10x4", glowing orange, with the stove putting out good heat and the room at 70. I was not expecting actual 25 hour, or even 15 hour burns...this is all I need, a good overnight burn with an easy start in the AM.

So I'm VERY pleasantly surprised at the performance, and both my wife and I love the appearance (we got the brown enamel).

We will see what happens if it drops below 10 degrees outside but, again, it's a supplemental heat source so I'm already way beyond my expectations. Even at very low temps, I could run the insert higher. Bizarre, I'm heating my 3600 sq. ft. house primarily on a wood burning insert. I guess my insulation must be pretty good (I do have blown in up in the attic), the house was built in 1989.

Yesterday when the installer was finishing up I mentioned that I wasn't expecting it to even heat the whole first floor, and the installer firmly disagreed and encouraged me that with the fairly open floor plan I was going to get a lot of heat. True.

So thanks for your help here. The biggest concern I have at the moment is hoping I dont' do something stupid to mess up the cat.

 

[GG Woody]

Yep. My Sirocco 30.2 is advertised as 30hr burn, I've never tried, don't need to. I figured if I could get a 12hr burn I would be happy. I have never turned it more than about half way down and have never not had coals when I check it at 12hrs. So nice to sleep all night, and super nice to come home from work to a stove still pumping out heat.
If the cat lasts a couple years I'm more than happy.

 

[stoveliker]

Nice to hear all is well!

Regarding the cat, if you make sure you use dry wood (because wet wood causes cool water vapor), if you open the bypass for a few minutes before opening the door (so the cat can cool down a bit before it sees cool room air), and if you are not overdrafting (sucking flames into the cat) - which I think you are not based on your achieved times - , and you keep your door gasket tight (so it does not leak in cool room air), then all should go well with your cat.

Enjoy!

But: pics, or it didn't happen
(We like to see pics of a burning stove or insert here!)

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

Nice to hear all is well!

Regarding the cat, if you make sure you use dry wood (because wet wood causes cool water vapor), if you open the bypass for a few minutes before opening the door (so the cat can cool down a bit before it sees cool room air), and if you are not overdrafting (sucking flames into the cat) - which I think you are not based on your achieved times - , and you keep your door gasket tight (so it does not leak in cool room air), then all should go well with your cat.

Enjoy!

But: pics, or it didn't happen
(We like to see pics of a burning stove or insert here!)

Sure I'll get some pics and upload. One thing that is confusing is that during the first "cycle" the cat seemed to go orange very quickly with the damper open. Just now I reloaded on a bed of hot coals and the needle spent a lot of time just "kissing" the edge of the red / active zone before finals going up to almost "12 o'clock"..is that normal? It does seem like I need to get the fire REAL hot before the cat activates.

How do I keep from over drafting / sucking flames into cat? I had been told that running the stove "wide open" with the cat engaged was just fine. Is that not correct? Thanks, pics to come.

 

[stoveliker]

I don't know why your cat on a hot reload doesn't glow quickly. But your cat does not need to glow to be active.
They are normally hyperactive when new (so glowing quickly and pegging out the cat gauge at the max). After a cord or so it should behave normally.

But back to the reload, maybe your flue was so cold that draft was not great anymore when you reloaded, so the fire did not take off as quickly as a "bright kindling flame"-draft-inducing cold start?

Overdrafting: Normally running wide open is fine with the bypass closed. The thermostat should control that. Unless your flue is drafting too much (is too tall).

I do see some flame going behind the side of the screen sometimes. But so far things are fine.

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

 

[TheAdmiralBurns]

I don't know why your cat on a hot reload doesn't glow quickly. But your cat does not need to glow to be active.
They are normally hyperactive when new (so glowing quickly and pegging out the cat gauge at the max). After a cord or so it should behave normally.

But back to the reload, maybe your flue was so cold that draft was not great anymore when you reloaded, so the fire did not take off as quickly as a "bright kindling flame"-draft-inducing cold start?

Overdrafting: Normally running wide open is fine with the bypass closed. The thermostat should control that. Unless your flue is drafting too much (is too tall).

I do see some flame going behind the side of the screen sometimes. But so far things are fine.

Well thanks for bringing it to my attention. I think it is a tall chimney, around 25 feet. Hopefully I didn't overdo it already.