Initial Draft Readings for Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert - Cause for Concern?

[davidmsem]

Hello.

I have all the instrumentation for the new Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert up and running. I have some initial readings from a fire today, just to see how things are woking. It is 50 degrees outside and no wind. With my prior installation my draft was very high (measured > 0.2) and contributed to the failure of my prior install.

My initial readings of draft after getting a ~3/4 loaded box up to a steady cruise, gas path temp at a steady 850ish degrees F about 7 inches up the flue, show that the draft still at 0.15, greater than the max recommended by Pacific Energy of 0.10. Metal temperature across the face just above the door in the 550 degrees F neighborhood.

The 0.15 in-col of water reading is with the air inlet FULLY CLOSED and the damper FULLY CLOSED.

I imagine with colder days and a full packed box the draft might increase even more.

Should I be concerned? I was really hoping to be able to drive the fire to a "stall" with the new damper, or at least down to within spec of 0.1 in-col of water. While this might be "better" in terms of control I am concerned. Those who warned the Pacific Energy Summit would also breathe easy were spot on.

Thoughts and opinions appreciated.

Additional thoughts/information:
1) It appears the air inlet really does not close as far as I'd like (see picture, she's alive). I've seen folks modify the inlet lever to close further. Any thoughts/opinions on this?

2)) There is a photo of my selected location for the Magnehelic. As far as DEPTH of the probe, the reading does not change from just inside the flue wall to the probe being 4" in, well behind the damper. As such I think I will be getting better and more accurate reading than I feared. I will switch to the surface mounted fitting for simplicity (won't need to remove probe for cleaning). I was worried the air velocity rushing around the damper near the flu wall would result in a skewed measurement. This is the NOT the case and will simplify the draft sensor install.

3) The remote temperature sensor is working 75' away and up one story in the home with no issues. Appreciate this recommendation from @bholler . You have eliminated my early trips downstairs to see what's going on with the fire.

 

[begreen]

850 is high for a constant flue exhaust reading. The damper and air supply may need to be closed down earlier to keep this temperature down.

Was the boost air port closed off as discussed last spring?

 

[Todd]

Before messing with the primary air inlet maybe close off the unregulated boost air in the lower front of the fire box below the door.

 

[davidmsem]

850 is high for the flue exhaust reading. The damper and air supply may need to be closed down earlier to keep this temperature down.

Was the boost air port closed off as discussed last spring?

My apologies for not remembering what the boost air port is. I know of two ports on this unit, one in the front being the primary, and input to the upper chamber to feed the secondary burn. My recollection is that people who change the secondary burn seriously affected the mixture between primary and secondary and things did not work out well.

My apologies for not recalling. I am really trying hard to get this right and appreciate the help.

 

[davidmsem]

Before messing with the primary air inlet maybe close off the unregulated boost air in the lower front of the fire box below the door.

I'm completely showing my ignorance, and I thought I had learned everything about this box, but I'm not aware of where the unregulated boost air is located. When you say quote lower front of firebox below the door " I do see a hole there underneath a cover. Isn't this simply where the primary air enters? So instead of messing with the lever you're just saying close the hole where the primary ear comes in? I apologies if I seem dumb on this one.

I had an old boss who said there are no stupid questions, just stupid people that ask questions. My apologies.

 

[davidmsem]

850 is high for the flue exhaust reading. The damper and air supply may need to be closed down earlier to keep this temperature down.

Was the boost air port closed off as discussed last spring?

Yes @begreen , I'm learning but believe 400 to 600 is the sweet spot for flue exhaust temp (going by memory and trying to make this instinctive). I know the sensor is supposed to 18" up the flue and I'm much short of that. That said, I can't believe the temp in the flue will drop much if any over another 10" or so, especially with a blanketed flue and the flue surrounded by insulation above the block plate.

So yes, I'm concerned as are you.....can't image what the temps were in my old unit without dampened airflow.

 

[Todd]

I'm completely showing my ignorance, and I thought I had learned everything about this box, but I'm not aware of where the unregulated boost air is located. When you say quote lower front of firebox below the door " I do see a hole there underneath a cover. Isn't this simply where the primary air enters? So instead of messing with the lever you're just saying close the hole where the primary ear comes in? I apologies if I seem dumb on this one.

I had an old boss who said there are no stupid questions, just stupid people that ask questions. My apologies.

I’m not 100% sure if that’s the boost air but it sounds like it. Begreen would know for sure since he has a PE. But yeah try blocking that hole with something like aluminum foil or a screw or bolt. Most of the primary air should come down in front of the glass.

 

[brenndatomu]

I imagine with colder days and a full packed box the draft might increase even more.

Correct

My apologies for not remembering what the boost air port is. I know of two ports on this unit, one in the front being the primary, and input to the upper chamber to feed the secondary burn. My recollection is that people who change the secondary burn seriously affected the mixture between primary and secondary and things did not work out well.

My apologies for not recalling. I am really trying hard to get this right and appreciate the help.

I had another brand stove that tended to run hot, I experimented with it and ended up blocking 50% of the secondary air, 50% of the primary air, and would block the boost air port off after the fire was well established. That worked well...made it go about 25% (+) longer on a load of wood too...plus more heat to the house.

 

[bholler]

Hello.

I have all the instrumentation for the new Pacific Energy Summit LE Insert up and running. I have some initial readings from a fire today, just to see how things are woking. It is 50 degrees outside and no wind. With my prior installation my draft was very high (measured > 0.2) and contributed to the failure of my prior install.

My initial readings of draft after getting a ~3/4 loaded box up to a steady cruise, gas path temp at a steady 850ish degrees F about 7 inches up the flue, show that the draft still at 0.15, greater than the max recommended by Pacific Energy of 0.10. Metal temperature across the face just above the door in the 550 degrees F neighborhood.

The 0.15 in-col of water reading is with the air inlet FULLY CLOSED and the damper FULLY CLOSED.

I imagine with colder days and a full packed box the draft might increase even more.

Should I be concerned? I was really hoping to be able to drive the fire to a "stall" with the new damper, or at least down to within spec of 0.1 in-col of water. While this might be "better" in terms of control I am concerned. Those who warned the Pacific Energy Summit would also breathe easy were spot on.

Thoughts and opinions appreciated.

Additional thoughts/information:
1) It appears the air inlet really does not close as far as I'd like (see picture, she's alive). I've seen folks modify the inlet lever to close further. Any thoughts/opinions on this?

2)) There is a photo of my selected location for the Magnehelic. As far as DEPTH of the probe, the reading does not change from just inside the flue wall to the probe being 4" in, well behind the damper. As such I think I will be getting better and more accurate reading than I feared. I will switch to the surface mounted fitting for simplicity (won't need to remove probe for cleaning). I was worried the air velocity rushing around the damper near the flu wall would result in a skewed measurement. This is the NOT the case and will simplify the draft sensor install.

3) The remote temperature sensor is working 75' away and up one story in the home with no issues. Appreciate this recommendation from @bholler . You have eliminated my early trips downstairs to see what's going on with the fire.

View attachment 299826 View attachment 299827 View attachment 299828 View attachment 299829 View attachment 299830

You got it down allot. Did you close off the holes in the damper plate at all?

 

[davidmsem]

You got it down allot. Did you close off the holes in the damper plate at all?

Yes. Here is a look bottom up after installation. I did listen to your suggestions!

 

[begreen]

I expect the flue temp to be higher due to the proximity of the probe to the flue outlet, but maybe 100-150º higher than 18" above the stove.

What is the stove temperature in the front corners above the door? Give yourself time to learn more about burning in the insert. You will find you have more control by shutting down the air sooner and packing the firebox tighter with big splits and smaller ones fitted between them.

For changes, start with closing off the boost air port. You definitely don't need this with such strong draft. If that is insufficient, then slightly bending the air intake stop tab to let it close a bit more would be the next step. But don't rush it. Do things one step at a time and then burn for a week or so to note the change. Blocking the boost air may be sufficient.

There are some old threads that have pictures of the boost air intake hole. It is about front center underneath the ashlip and to the left of the air intake control.

 

[davidmsem]

I expect the flue temp to be higher due to the proximity of the probe to the flue outlet, but maybe 100-150º higher than 18" above the stove.

What is the stove temperature in the front corners above the door? Give yourself time to learn more about burning in the insert. You will find you have more control by shutting down the air sooner and packing the firebox tighter with big splits and smaller ones fitted between them.

For changes, start with closing off the boost air port. You definitely don't need this with such strong draft. If that is insufficient, then slightly bending the air intake stop tab to let it close a bit more would be the next step. But don't rush it. Do things one step at a time and then burn for a week or so to note the change. Blocking the boost air may be sufficient.

There are some old threads that have pictures of the boost air intake hole. It is about front center underneath the ashlip and to the left of the air intake control.

Thank you.
Stove temp in the corners was 550ish.

I've seen the hole under the ashlip. I thought that connected to the airflow from the lever on the front. Does the air that is controlled by the lever in front run someplace else other than that hole in the front? I'm a little confused about this area of the stove. I'll fish around and maybe find something if it's hard for you to clarify. No worries.

 

[bholler]

Yes. Here is a look bottom up after installation. I did listen to your suggestions!

View attachment 299844

I remember seeing that pic at some point now. You may be able to control it now by shutting down early. If not a restrictor at the top may be needed. But I would work on limiting air coming into the stove before going that route. Others here will know more about that than me

 

[stoveliker]

I've been following you a bit, and I have to give you a pat on the back. You are in much better shape. Maybe not "there" yet, but it's impressive where you are now. Persistence and study pays of.

I do think there is a fair temperature difference between 18" above and where you're at with the temperature gauge. And the "shut down earlier" will be very effective; slowing the avalanche of heat/burning is much easier when done early on. It'll be a learning curve though (too early and you smother things).

I don't know what to think of the draft gauge data - not my expertise.

 

[davidmsem]

@begreen , I went back through earlier threads where you talked about modifying the boost air hole or vent as it's called sometimes. Well in one of your responses to me you said something like you have to use a mirror to see it. Broke out the wife's Estee Lauder mirror and I think I found it!!

Please let me know if you agree. I see a whole where as the lever moves from high to low the hole is closed, and another porthole that is just always opened. Have I located this properly based on the photos?

One photo you see what I believe is the boost air as you call it, round hole completely open. In the other one you can see the lever closing over the large opening for the controllable primary air flow. Do I have it?

 

[EbS-P]

For some corroborated temps. I can’t run my insert and keep it under 900 degrees right at the appliance connector. Full closed position damper (but no added plate to it) I get nice secondary flames not lazy ona full load but not blowtorch. Top center of the insert peaks at 575 or 600. 100 degrees lower on the front corners. I’m not saying that I’m not still over drafting but I’m not concerned with operating at these temps. I’d like to drill a hole in my F400 adapter and measurement flue temps for that stove that I believe is dialed in well.

At least you now can be informed what it’s doing on the coldest windy days.

 

[davidmsem]

I've been following you a bit, and I have to give you a pat on the back. You are in much better shape. Maybe not "there" yet, but it's impressive where you are now. Persistence and study pays of.

I do think there is a fair temperature difference between 18" above and where you're at with the temperature gauge. And the "shut down earlier" will be very effective; slowing the avalanche of heat/burning is much easier when done early on. It'll be a learning curve though (too early and you smother things).

I don't know what to think of the draft gauge data - not my expertise.

Thank you. I don't like losing, and I've lost with the prior install and the problems that existed while I was asleep at the switch. Trying to keep eyes wide Open and get the optimum install I can. As far as the draft gauge data, it revealed I need to keep the pressure sensor below the damper. Additionally I have a wonderful easy installation based on measurements today, surface mounted port that does not stick into the chamber.

Trying to drive things to the end zone without completely alienating everyone on the website. This has been an amazing resource for me over many many years.

Correct

I had another brand stove that tended to run hot, I experimented with it and ended up blocking 50% of the secondary air, 50% of the primary air, and would block the boost air port off after the fire was well established. That worked well...made it go about 25% (+) longer on a load of wood too...plus more heat to the house.

Thank you. What did you use to block off the hole? I have some 1800° felt that might go in there but I'm not sure if that is too porous.

 

[brenndatomu]

What did you use to block off the hole?

A wad of aluminum foil...then I worked it into the hole and got it so that it was a custom made plug of sorts...easy to remove but would stay in place well too. Mine was fairly easy to access underneath...

 

[ABMax24]

Cut a new plate for your flue damper, cut it to fit closer to the ID of the pipe.

 

[ABMax24]

For some corroborated temps. I can’t run my insert and keep it under 900 degrees right at the appliance connector. Full closed position damper (but no added plate to it) I get nice secondary flames not lazy ona full load but not blowtorch. Top center of the insert peaks at 575 or 600. 100 degrees lower on the front corners. I’m not saying that I’m not still over drafting but I’m not concerned with operating at these temps. I’d like to drill a hole in my F400 adapter and measurement flue temps for that stove that I believe is dialed in well.

At least you now can be informed what it’s doing on the coldest windy days.

I know we've discussed this before, but you've got to be blowing almost half of your heat up the flue with those temps.

IIRC your 1800i has the stainless sheet below the stove top?

 

[davidmsem]

After finally locating what is referred to as boost air (thank you @begreen ) I was able to plug the port via method I found on another thread. I misunderstood boost air to simply be the controllable primary inlet.

It appears that blocking the boost air makes a significant change in performance. While yesterday flu temps reached around 850 while cruising, temps with the boost air port blocked were around 550 when cruising. That's really huge. It ran fully choked primary lever, as well as the damper closed, to achieve these lower numbers.

You will see from the picture the fire behaves very differently, and had very little secondary burn compared to yesterday's fire. I'm not sure if this is an issue or not. The fire seemed to creep along slowly, even some white smoke covering at the bottom of the firebox. One might extrapolate much longer burns with this approach. Since it's all new I'm not sure if this is dialed too far back.

I could not take many draft readings (see issue below) , but the two I could get were oddly similar to yesterday, 0.14in-col. perhaps the draft remains the same but it is coming through the secondary air port, I believe Pacific Energy calls it EBT. So while the draft numbers were the same performance seem very different.

Face temperatures with boost air plugged were 100 cooler, 450ish. Another improvement.

Another change I made was mounting the flush mounted static pressure fitting on the flu pipe. This created a problem either because it is directly mounted and there is heat transfer, or the type of metal. It was such great heat transfer to the fitting that the heat resistant tubing melted. Limiting my ability to take readings on draft. Any suggestions on how to remedy the tube melting are appreciated.

 

[begreen]

Good deal. Blocking the boost port often solves the strong draft issue. You are on the right path. Make no more hardware changes for at least a few weeks. Instead, experiment with timing of the air control and position, size of the wood loads, etc. As the season progresses so will your learning. You may not need to close the air control all the way now, especially during the shoulder season. The fires you are burning now will be different from when it gets cold and below freezing and the insert is burning full loads of fuel. Once you get it dialed in and the timing right, it will be like running on cruise control. Good instrumentation helps a lot. I run our stove pretty much exclusively on flue temp with an occasional sanity check of stove top temp.

 

[davidmsem]

Good deal. Blocking the boost port often solves the strong draft issue. You are on the right path. Make no more hardware changes for at least a few weeks. Instead, experiment with timing of the air control and position, size of the wood loads, etc. As the season progresses so will your learning. You may not need to close the air control all the way now, especially during the shoulder season. The fires you are burning now will be different from when it gets cold and below freezing and the insert is burning full loads of fuel. Once you get it dialed in and the timing right, it will be like running on cruise control. Good instrumentation helps a lot. I run our stove pretty much exclusively on flue temp with an occasional sanity check of stove top temp.

Thank you so much! No more changes unless warranted after weeks and the cold sets in.

I'm shooting for flu temperatures of 400 to 600. Do you feel this is appropriate? Additionally is there a face temperature range that you tried to run in? These will be helpful metrics for me to steer toward. For the past 7 years I've had no ability to control these so unaware of what numbers are good metrics.

 

[begreen]

With a full load of fuel on a cold day, it may read hotter. A flue temp so close to the flue collar may read in the 7-800º range for a short time when the fire is starting, but it should settle down to something in the 600-700º range once the air has been shut down and the stove is cruising with a nice secondary burn.

 

[stoveliker]

Persistence --> progress. Again.

Keep us updated with a summary of statistics/data I know you (engineer) will be collecting.
It'll be a good resource for others too in the future.