Looking for the best match for my large room - wood stove with high efficiency...

[Bigg_Redd]

www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200362037_200362037

 

[begreen]

He has a hot water boiler system. Usually that means plumbing and no ductwork.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

He has a hot water boiler system, no ductwork.

Looks like he needs ductwork then

 

[rsilvers]

I have AC ductwork - but there are five air handlers, some in the attic.

So what about a wood / coal boiler - could I stick one before my oil boiler to pre-heat the water?

There is this, but it is not enough BTU to tear out the oil unit that I have.

http://www.yukon-eagle.com/FURNACES/POLAROILWOODGASWOOD/tabid/56/Default.aspx

 

[Seasoned Oak]

ID be careful of the math for Geo thermal as well. Good friend of mine got it put one in to replace an oil fired unit and one of the requirements was to upgrade his existing level of insulation. The Geo system did make some improvement over his previous oil bills but how much of that came from the insulation upgrade and how much from the Geo system he will never know. Might have been better off to do just the insulation.

 

[begreen]

AC ductwork would not be appropriate for this task and it is in the wrong location. I mentioned a wood boiler a couple times already. A good system is not cheap, but could possibly be sized to handle both the house and the guest house, depending on their proximity. The Yukon system link is for a furnace not a boiler. Think Garn or EKO. We have a boiler room forum here for that discussion.

 

[rsilvers]

The Geo system did make some improvement over his previous oil bills

I would hope and assume there is a massive improvement over the oil bills. I am forecasting $550 savings per month. A smaller house would be less of course. I don't think that is the question so much as how many years the difference in the energy bills take to pay for the installation.

If my system was $90,000 and I saved $550 per month, then that is about 14 years to pay for itself.

 

[Creekheat]

$100,000 for geothermal after a 30% tax credit?
That's almost hilarious. I need to start selling swampland. Lol don't walk, run from whoever gave you that quote.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I would hope and assume there is a massive improvement over the oil bills. I am forecasting $550 savings per month. A smaller house would be less of course. I don't think that is the question so much as how many years the difference in the energy bills take to pay for the installation.

If my system was $90,000 and I saved $550 per month, then that is about 14 years to pay for itself.

Like i said be careful of the math. Some installers want you to super insulate the house first. Gee, if you could do that(and thats not easy in an existing home), you would not need central heat at all. And if you do any insulation upgrades at all ,you will never know just how much that Geo has really saved you. The reality is often not as rosy as the estimates.

 

[Grisu]

You have 6 months to figure out the true costs of each system. I would get quotes in for a wood boiler as well as price out the geothermal. Any idea how much oil the previous owner used? And how much electricity for the A/C? Also don't forget that the $70,000 difference between a boiler and a geothermal could be invested e. g. at a 3% annual return after inflation. So you need to save more in the neighborhood of $100,000 in energy cost to break even.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The good news is you already have the most expensive to operate heating system fuel (besides electric resistance) known to man. Just about anything you do should save you money.

 

[rsilvers]

$100,000 for geothermal after a 30% tax credit?
That's almost hilarious. I need to start selling swampland. Lol don't walk, run from whoever gave you that quote.

No one quoted me. My house has 11 tons of AC now. Lets say it is $9700 per ton and I get 9 tons for the new system, then that is $87,000. I get a tax credit of 30%, so that is like another $13,000 savings. So $74,000 in the end.

 

[rsilvers]

Propane is 30% more than oil now.
Propane is 6% more than electric where I live, and my mother a few years ago spent a lot converting her home from electric to propane. Propane was half the cost like 1-2 years ago.

 

[rsilvers]

If I were putting in another boiler - coal seems better. It is cheaper than wood, more compact, less likely to get ripped off on the purchase, and doesn't need to dry for two years. On the downside, I hear the dust and ash are bad.

 

[rsilvers]

Also don't forget that the $70,000 difference between a boiler and a geothermal could be invested e. g. at a 3% annual return after inflation. So you need to save more in the neighborhood of $100,000 in energy cost to break even.

The state gives 7 year 0% interest loans on geothermal up to $25,000.

 

[rsilvers]

What about air source?

http://www.mitsubishipro.com/media/226460/h2i_brochure.pdf

The downside is less efficient and no 30% tax credit. The upside is it may cost - I am guessing, $25,000 less to install.

If the tax credit is worth $12,000 to me, then air-source is like $13,000 less in the end. Not sure geothermal is enough more efficient to ever make up that $13,000.

I guess like Grisu said I need real quotes after I get the previous-owners energy bills.

 

[Grisu]

The state gives 7 year 0% interest loans on geothermal up to $25,000.

That would still be $50,000 from your pocket that you could not invest to earn you a return.

I am just suggesting to take your time and go about this more analytical. I am sure many places would be happy to give you a free quote for the respective systems (wood, coal, geothermal) after which you have some hard numbers to base your decision on. Right now, a lot seems to be just rule-of-thumb guesses. The problem is for systems of that size just being a bit off can make a difference of a few $1000. Knowing the heating and cooling consumption of the previous owner could go long way. If you don't have those numbers, maybe calling the power and oil companies will fix that. Worth a try.

 

[rsilvers]

I just did some math, and whatever dollars spent on oil - heat pump would be 20% less dollars on electricity. And whatever dollars spent on oil, geothermal would be half that on electricity (at my rates and with my location factored into the heat pump).

So then it comes down to system cost.

There is no no-brainer here except to favor buying houses with natural gas, all else being equal.

 

[Ashful]

Some crazy numbers being thrown around here. A few of my neighbors have geothermal, and houses equal to or larger than the OP, and I've not heard any numbers nearly that high. They just drilled wells last week for the new house they're building behind me, and the guy across the street put in a new geothermal system (previously oil) just last summer.

Boilers? Wood furnaces? I thought the idea was to provide some living room ambiance, while putting a dent in the oil bill. I was out bucking and splitting today. About four hours work, and only 1.5 cords processed and stacked. The mud didn't help. In any case, if I'm going to work that hard for my wood, I want to look at a fire. No sense hiding it in the basement.

With a space this size, throw in a wood stove (or two), and start pumping BTU's into your living space. I think I heard mention of 5 or 6 heating zones, so you won't have much trouble with one end of the house going cold while the stove is warming the other end. We currently have 9 zones, with the wood stoves at either end of the house doing the heavy lifting in two of those zones, and contributing significant heat to a third zone.

 

[rsilvers]

Some crazy numbers being thrown around here. A few of my neighbors have geothermal, and houses equal to or larger than the OP, and I've not heard any numbers nearly that high. They just drilled wells last week for the new house they're building behind me, and the guy across the street put in a new geothermal system (previously oil) just last summer.

If I need, say, 9 tons, then that is 175 * 9 for feet of drilling. So I would need four holes that are 400 feet deep each. That is $30,000 in drilling not counting any pipe or lining. Isn't the pipe another $20 per foot? So $60,000 so far. Then there is the heat pump. Then there are all the new radiators and air handlers.

 

[Ashful]

If I need, say, 9 tons, then that is 175 * 9 for feet of drilling. So I would need four holes that are 400 feet deep each. That is $30,000 in drilling not counting any pipe or lining. Isn't the pipe another $20 per foot? So $60,000 so far. Then there is the heat pump. Then there are all the new radiators and air handlers.

Guy across the street is heating and cooling 6500 sq.ft. of typical 1986 vintage construction. He switched from ASHP with oil to geothermal last summer, and I think his entire SYSTEM cost (with drilling) was under $30k.

But we're off topic. Didn't you come here asking which stove to buy?

 

[rsilvers]

He had ASHP so maybe that means that he had all of the proper radiators and air handlers already. So probably he just had to drill 3 holes and get a new heat-pump that was an easy swap for the previous one, connecting to the same refrigerant lines and AC.

I would need five new air handlers, all new radiators, and more drilling than him, and am not already plumbed for the refrigerant lines.

 

[rsilvers]

I am going to get a stove or two for sure but I need to measure the fireplace.

 

[begreen]

If my system was $90,000 and I saved $550 per month, then that is about 14 years to pay for itself.

That seems to suppose heating 12 months of the year. There would be no saving at all for at least 6 months a year and reduced savings for another 2-4 months.

 

[rsilvers]

Oh yeah - that is why I had earlier came up with closer to a 20 year payoff. I forgot to calculate it correctly this time. And as Grisu says, the payoff is even longer if you factor in that the $50,000 could be invested. For example, if I just kept oil and threw in a Soapstone stove, I could take that $50,000 difference and buy a Vanguard Energy Index fund, and have my money grow as oil and gas prices rise in the future. That may actually work out better in the end than getting geothermal.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundId=5480&FundIntExt=INT