Looking to buy my first stick-wood boiler

[Kelster]

Hello Y'all,
First time in this forum. We are about to take possession of an acreage/woodlot and are planning to install a centrally located stick-wood boiler as our primary heat-source.

We're planning a main house and several outbuildings and we have lots of Poplar to clear, so a wood boiler seems like the logical and simplest choice.

So far I'm thinking a Garn WHS boiler might be the most efficient unit out there and I like the thermal storage concept, but how does one correctly size a system with thermal storage in mind?

I'm wondering if anyone on this forum has experience with the Viessmann Pyromat solid wood boilers?
http://www.viessmann.co.uk/en/industry_commerce/products/Biomass_boilers/Pyromat-ECO.html

Thanks in advance,
Kelly B.

 

[bigbobs]

Are they available on this side of the pond?

 

[hobbyheater]

Welcome to the Hearth!
Have used a Jetstream with 1046 imperial gallons of well insulated storage for over 30 years. We live on northern Vancouver Island so our heating season is a long shoulder season. If we get winter, the large storage lets us go 40 hours between firings and at times I wish that there was another 500 gallons of storage.
I think the Garn is just an awesome boiler, simplicity, efficient and has a excellent track record.
Know nothing about the other boiler that you're asking about.
Good luck.

 

[Kelster]

Are they available on this side of the pond?

Hey Bob,
I spoke with a fellow today at FINK Machine in Enderby, BC who can provide a Viessmann Pyromat, but their smallest unit (30 kW) is around $20k by the time you pay for the exchange and freight. That makes a Garn 2000 at $19,000 competitive. I'm thinking that either boiler is going to be out of range of our budget.

 

[Kelster]

Welcome to the Hearth!
Have used a Jetstream with 1046 imperial gallons of well insulated storage for over 30 years. We live on northern Vancouver Island so our heating season is a long shoulder season. If we get winter, the large storage lets us go 40 hours between firings and at times I wish that there was another 500 gallons of storage.
I think the Garn is just an awesome boiler, simplicity, efficient and has a excellent track record.
Know nothing about the other boiler that you're asking about.
Good luck.

Thanks for the feedback on the Jetstream. Our property is on Parker Lake in the Big Lake area - East of Williams Lake, BC so we could see a few days or weeks of -40C at times. I think having a large thermal battery makes a lot of sense which part of what attracted me to Garn - plus they are used all over Alaska. I wonder if you could achieve the same result by using a smaller less expensive boiler and adding external storage??

 

[hobbyheater]

wonder if you could achieve the same result by using a smaller less expensive boiler and adding external storage??

Looked you up at Parker Lake on Google. There should be no shortage of firewood in your area!
Many on here have used smaller, less expensive boiler with two 500 gallon propane tanks for storage with great success. If you can do the installation yourself, there are savings to be had.

 

[maple1]

I wonder if you could achieve the same result by using a smaller less expensive boiler and adding external storage??

You absolutely can. Then you can bring modularity into the picture with respect to where you put your boiler & where you put your storage. You could do storage in multiple tanks.

Keep reading, it's all here. Might be scattered a bit, but it's here.

 

[hobbyheater]

If your starting from scratch with your buildings look at radiant heat as there are big advantages to be had with it over baseboard systems !

 

[stee6043]

If I were starting anew I would look no further than a Garn. For me, one house no outbuildings, I'd probably get the Garn Jr.

I'd also echo the above comment about radiant heat. You can't beat it in terms of efficiency and comfort (I'm told/read).

 

[Kelster]

I really like the Garn, but have trouble with the $20k price tag for the WHS 2000 + installation
We will definitely be going with radiant heating everywhere possible - thanks hobbyheater.

 

[hobbyheater]

(broken link removed)

Gord Bullen operates this company out of Blind Bay on Shuswap Lake. I would suggest giving him a call (he's very helpful) and has sold boilers all over the province. He will be able to tell you what he has sold in your area and can probably set you up to see several different systems.

 

[Kelster]

Thanks Hobbyheater. I appreciate the referral.
I have contacted Gord already and I plan to spend some time to layout my buildings and hydronic system to see if Gord can help me with the design.

 

[JP11]

starting from scratch... for sure plan your radiant well.

the ability to use low temp water can't be overstated. The bigger 'swing' you can take your storage from high to low temp limits will make your storage MUCH more usable. It's all in the math!

think about your project from start to finish. where is the wood coming from? where will it be limbed, bucked, split, dried, stored, loaded. where will you haul the ash.

every time you handle the wood.. it 'costs' more. time is money and effort. that effort will last LONG after your boiler install. Your labor is the same as insulation.. it lasts the longest and if you pay attention to the details, you won't waste for decades and kick yourself.

JP

 

[hobbyheater]

Thanks Hobbyheater. I appreciate the referral.
I have contacted Gord already and I plan to spend some time to layout my buildings and hydronic system to see if Gord can help me with the design.

One of the problems you are going to encounter if you have to hire a contractor to do the installation, is finding a contractor that understands the concepts of gasification, heat storage, and even the principal of boiler return water protection. A small example of this is three local installations done by three different contractors. All three installers went to a local plumbing wholesaler to get a mixing valve for return water protection. Each time they were sold an anti-scald valve. This valve although sounds the same, works in reverse to the proper boiler protection valve.
If you have to hire someone to do the installation, a Garn again may become more attractive because of its much more simple plumbing requirements.

 

[hobbyheater]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/long-time-coming-installed-a-lopper-drummer-45-boiler.121101/

This is a tread from several months ago. this boiler is similar to the Pyromat.

 

[Kelster]

One of the problems you are going to encounter if you have to hire a contractor to do the installation, is finding a contractor that understands the concepts of gasification, heat storage, and even the principal of boiler return water protection. A small example of this is three local installations done by three different contractors. All three installers went to a local plumbing wholesaler to get a mixing valve for return water protection. Each time they were sold an anti-scald valve. This valve although sounds the same, works in reverse to the proper boiler protection valve.
If you have to hire someone to do the installation, a Garn again may become more attractive because of its much more simple plumbing requirements.

Thanks Allan,
I read with interest the recent article on the BTEC website on Protecting wood-fired boilers from low water temperatures and was wondering if a thermal clutch was required with a Garn - there's a direct connection between the thermal storage and the combustion chamber, so I can't see how it would be required.

 

[Kelster]

starting from scratch... for sure plan your radiant well.

the ability to use low temp water can't be overstated. The bigger 'swing' you can take your storage from high to low temp limits will make your storage MUCH more usable. It's all in the math!

think about your project from start to finish. where is the wood coming from? where will it be limbed, bucked, split, dried, stored, loaded. where will you haul the ash.

every time you handle the wood.. it 'costs' more. time is money and effort. that effort will last LONG after your boiler install. Your labor is the same as insulation.. it lasts the longest and if you pay attention to the details, you won't waste for decades and kick yourself.

JP

Good thoughts JP,
I agree that a wider delta-T is a smart design choice from the aspect of reduced pumping energy making the best use of your thermal storage, but I guess the rub is the cost - larger delta-T requires more heat transfer surface area, but if it's just more plastic pipe, that shouldn't be a big hit. It's those bigger towel warmers and sexy euro-convectors that cost.

 

[Kelster]

Have any of you guys done a variable speed pumping with residential hydronic systems? We used variable frequency drives all the time with commercial systems and the payback and protection they provide will pay for a better quality motor in short order. I'm just not sure the returns would be there for a small 1 to 1.5 hp circ pump.

 

[Kelster]

One of the problems you are going to encounter if you have to hire a contractor to do the installation, is finding a contractor that understands the concepts of gasification, heat storage, and even the principal of boiler return water protection. A small example of this is three local installations done by three different contractors. All three installers went to a local plumbing wholesaler to get a mixing valve for return water protection. Each time they were sold an anti-scald valve. This valve although sounds the same, works in reverse to the proper boiler protection valve.
If you have to hire someone to do the installation, a Garn again may become more attractive because of its much more simple plumbing requirements.

Good advice Allan,
I think I know enough to guide a contractor and the wholesaler to what I want. The trick is to find one that will cooperate and do what's asked rather than make their own judgement calls at your expense.

 

[maple1]

Have any of you guys done a variable speed pumping with residential hydronic systems? We used variable frequency drives all the time with commercial systems and the payback and protection they provide will pay for a better quality motor in short order. I'm just not sure the returns would be there for a small 1 to 1.5 hp circ pump.

Grundfos Alpha = variable speed pump, self controlled by inlet/outlet pressure differential sensing.

IMO should be standard equipment for hydronic heat distribution - mine is no comparison to the way the 15-58 it replaced operated. Speeds up with more zones open, slows down with less. Uses way less electricity. Win all around.

My loading unit pump though is still a 15-58 3 speed - it sees a more or less constant load compared to the distribution pump.

 

[Kelster]

Grundfos Alpha = variable speed pump, self controlled by inlet/outlet pressure differential sensing.

IMO should be standard equipment for hydronic heat distribution - mine is no comparison to the way the 15-58 it replaced operated. Speeds up with more zones open, slows down with less. Uses way less electricity. Win all around.

My loading unit pump though is still a 15-58 3 speed - it sees a more or less constant load compared to the distribution pump.

Thanks Maple1,
Did you go with 2-way thermostatic radiator valves in each zone as well? I'm thinking that Oventrop or Danfoss TRV's could be the simplest way to go and give individual control at each zone, terminal unit, convector, radiator, towel bar, etc.

 

[JP11]

Good thoughts JP,
I agree that a wider delta-T is a smart design choice from the aspect of reduced pumping energy making the best use of your thermal storage, but I guess the rub is the cost - larger delta-T requires more heat transfer surface area, but if it's just more plastic pipe, that shouldn't be a big hit. It's those bigger towel warmers and sexy euro-convectors that cost.

That was my line of thinking.. just a percentage more pex used, planning to use the radiant water down as low as possible. I use mine for DHW.. so that's my low limiting factor. I kind of wish I had planned a bit different and used water from lower in the tanks for in concrete radiant. However.. with my plumbing setup it would have been ripping everything out and re plumbing.

Hindsight is 20.20 I lived in the house 4 years before I put in a wood boiler. I didn't know about, and my plumbing contractor didn't ask me. Not saying I would have chosen zone valves and variable speed pumps at that time.. but it's awful expensive to throw away stuff and 'do over'

JP

 

[Kelster]

That was my line of thinking.. just a percentage more pex used, planning to use the radiant water down as low as possible. I use mine for DHW.. so that's my low limiting factor. I kind of wish I had planned a bit different and used water from lower in the tanks for in concrete radiant. However.. with my plumbing setup it would have been ripping everything out and re plumbing.

Hindsight is 20.20 I lived in the house 4 years before I put in a wood boiler. I didn't know about, and my plumbing contractor didn't ask me. Not saying I would have chosen zone valves and variable speed pumps at that time.. but it's awful expensive to throw away stuff and 'do over'

JP

I expect you may be correct in that DHWT is the short straw. I doubt that tank manufactures (e.g. Bradford White) are design their indirect tanks with extra heat exchanger material to allow, lower flow, lower delta-T's. Iv'e just started looking at indirect tanks so I'm open to some learning here.

 

[maple1]

I started out with a sidearm HX for my DHW.

I added a FPHX a couple months ago. Just left the sidearm there & put the FPHX in series.

What a difference.

FPHX is the way to go to heat your DHW with wood in the non-heating season - when heating it is not quite so crucial since there is (most) always a good supply of hot water to heat it with.

 

[Kelster]

I started out with a sidearm HX for my DHW.

I added a FPHX a couple months ago. Just left the sidearm there & put the FPHX in series.

What a difference.

FPHX is the way to go to heat your DHW with wood in the non-heating season - when heating it is not quite so crucial since there is (most) always a good supply of hot water to heat it with.

Excellent suggestion Maple1,
I guess the cost add for the FPHX would be offset by the savings on the cost of the DHW storage tank, but I guess there's now another pump, which requires more electrical and controls.

Kelly