Magic Heat mess

[sputnik378]

I just went through this entire thread and I'm convinced that I need a baffle now. However I think that I need to address other issues first as I have a lot of creosote buildup.

I think that my issues mostly stem from the fact that I have a magic heat installed. I guess I'm looking for all the recommendations from what appears to be a wise community. Hoping for some solid help and looking forward to making this Fisher a support efficient stove.

 

[bholler]

I just went through this entire thread and I'm convinced that I need a baffle now. However I think that I need to address other issues first as I have a lot of creosote buildup.

I think that my issues mostly stem from the fact that I have a magic heat installed. I guess I'm looking for all the recommendations from what appears to be a wise community. Hoping for some solid help and looking forward to making this Fisher a support efficient stove.

View attachment 310823 View attachment 310824 View attachment 310825 View attachment 310826 View attachment 310827 View attachment 310828 View attachment 310829 View attachment 310830

Get rid of the magic heat and flip the pipe over so it's right side up. A baffle will certainly increase the efficency of these stoves but it will still be miles away from a modern stove.

 

[coaly]

I just went through this entire thread and I'm convinced that I need a baffle now. However I think that I need to address other issues first as I have a lot of creosote buildup.

I think that my issues mostly stem from the fact that I have a magic heat installed. I guess I'm looking for all the recommendations from what appears to be a wise community. Hoping for some solid help and looking forward to making this Fisher a support efficient stove.

View attachment 310823 View attachment 310824 View attachment 310825 View attachment 310826 View attachment 310827 View attachment 310828 View attachment 310829 View attachment 310830

That is certainly a mess.

The object is keeping flue gases above 250*f all the way to the top. (While smoke is present) Below this critical temperature, water vapor from combustion condenses on pipe and flue walls allowing smoke particles to stick.

This forms pyroligenious acid, primarily wood alcohol and acetic acid. In liquid form this is harmless. When allowed to bake on flue wall this becomes the various stages of creosote.

The Magic Heat is dropping the inside flue gas temperature below the 250*f condensing point. The fluid is leaking out because the black connector pipe is upside down, allowing it to leak out of the joints. (3 screws are required at each joint)

Removing the Magic Heat will prevent most of the condensing, but you need a magnetic pipe thermometer to know what temperature the flue gases are.

A magnetic pipe thermometer reads the surface temperature. This will be about 1/2 the actual inside temperature. The safe burn zone will start about 250* which is actually 500* internal. This assumes cooling back down to 250* exiting at top. This is only required while smoke is present.

The thermometer will have the high safe zone about 500*f. This would be about 1000*f internal which is the constant temperature rating of Class A chimney. Chimney pipe is tested for up to 2100*f of 10 minute duration chimney fire.

A IR thermometer is a handy tool when installing a baffle. You should get one to monitor pipe temp as well as stove top. Remember the surface temperature you’re reading is about 1/2 the internal temperature of pipe or stove. Record these temps, then monitor with baffle installed to document the difference.

 

[sputnik378]

Get rid of the magic heat and flip the pipe over so it's right side up. A baffle will certainly increase the efficency of these stoves but it will still be miles away from a modern stove.

I was expecting that response. I am using the stove in a large open space and that's why we tried the magic heat. If I remove it, I am still concerned that there will be a fair amount of creosote buildup with the overall height (~20') and size (8") of the stack.
Is there a recommended way of cleaning creosote deposits that are likely stage 3 at this point as we've been using the stove daily for the last ~6 months? Note: It didn't start seeping like that until recently.

At this point, we just need to get through the winter and aren't able to replace this stove with a newer model.

With that in mind is there anything else that we can/should do to remedy our current issues and make the most of what we've got.

I was planning to remove the Magic Heat and put a blower fan near the stove instead of that as I'm still trying to circulate as much heat as possible.

 

[rtrev37]

I just went through this entire thread and I'm convinced that I need a baffle now. However I think that I need to address other issues first as I have a lot of creosote buildup.

I think that my issues mostly stem from the fact that I have a magic heat installed. I guess I'm looking for all the recommendations from what appears to be a wise community. Hoping for some solid help and looking forward to making this Fisher a support efficient stove.

View attachment 310823 View attachment 310824 View attachment 310825 View attachment 310826 View attachment 310827 View attachment 310828 View attachment 310829 View attachment 310830

That is certainly a mess.

The object is keeping flue gases above 250*f all the way to the top. (While smoke is present) Below this critical temperature, water vapor from combustion condenses on pipe and flue walls allowing smoke particles to stick.

This forms pyroligenious acid, primarily wood alcohol and acetic acid. In liquid form this is harmless. When allowed to bake on flue wall this becomes the various stages of creosote.

The Magic Heat is dropping the inside flue gas temperature below the 250*f condensing point. The fluid is leaking out because the black connector pipe is upside down, allowing it to leak out of the joints. (3 screws are required at each joint)

Removing the Magic Heat will prevent most of the condensing, but you need a magnetic pipe thermometer to know what temperature the flue gases are.

A magnetic pipe thermometer reads the surface temperature. This will be about 1/2 the actual inside temperature. The safe burn zone will start about 250* which is actually 500* internal. This assumes cooling back down to 250* exiting at top. This is only required while smoke is present.

The thermometer will have the high safe zone about 500*f. This would be about 1000*f internal which is the constant temperature rating of Class A chimney. Chimney pipe is tested for up to 2100*f of 10 minute duration chimney fire.

A IR thermometer is a handy tool when installing a baffle. You should get one to monitor pipe temp as well as stove top. Remember the surface temperature you’re reading is about 1/2 the internal temperature of pipe or stove. Record these temps, then monitor with baffle installed to document the difference.

I had a Fisher Stove for 15 yrs. I made effective modifications due to the love for the Fisher Stove. 4 yrs ago I replaced it with a modern stove with secondary burn but wish I would have made that change 19 yrs sooner. Regardless of your time in, going for a modern stove will out weigh the benefits a million times over Plus save on all the wood used on old stoves. My z fisher used 3-4 cords a yr. Modern stove only 1.5-2 cords a yr. Just saying…

 

[sputnik378]

I had a Fisher Stove for 15 yrs. I made effective modifications due to the love for the Fisher Stove. 4 yrs ago I replaced it with a modern stove with secondary burn but wish I would have made that change 19 yrs sooner. Regardless of your time in, going for a modern stove will out weigh the benefits a million times over Plus save on all the wood used on old stoves. My z fisher used 3-4 cords a yr. Modern stove only 1.5-2 cords a yr. Just saying…

I appreciate that, I really do. I'd rather buy a new stove, but it's just not in the cards at the moment. Sometimes you gotta run what you brung ya know! Starting a new business has me pretty tight at the moment. Also, we have plenty of wood where I'm at, and I don't mind the workout.

With that being said, my plan is:
I'm going to clean it out, flip the pipe, and remove the Magic Heat this weekend. I'm certainly open to suggestions while I've got the pipe apart to clean up the stage 3 deposits in the pipe. Chemicals or is fire simply the best solution?

I do have an IR thermometer, and I'll record the temps before and after, and then hopefully my final step will be to install a baffle.

 

[NickW]

Agree with @bholler & @rtrev37 100%!

Removing heat from the chimney pipe is a recipe for disaster.

Bought our current house in '03 with an old smoke dragon with a heat reclaimer. Went through 5-7 cord of hardwood each winter and couldn't keep the electric baseboards from kicking in. Had the brilliant idea to add a second one. Ended up with a couple of 'minor' chimney fires, then a serious one. Thankfully no damage. Following year I installed a secondary combustion stove with double wall pipe and immediately wished I had done it 15 years earlier. I now use about 4 cord total per year; around 2 3/4 hardwood and 1 1/4 softwood and only on the coldest windiest nights do the baseboards kick in in the morning (and hopefully that will change with the new damper I just installed).

 

[Piney]

I had a Fisher Stove for 15 yrs. I made effective modifications due to the love for the Fisher Stove. 4 yrs ago I replaced it with a modern stove with secondary burn but wish I would have made that change 19 yrs sooner. Regardless of your time in, going for a modern stove will out weigh the benefits a million times over Plus save on all the wood used on old stoves. My z fisher used 3-4 cords a yr. Modern stove only 1.5-2 cords a yr. Just saying…

I just went through this entire thread and I'm convinced that I need a baffle now. However I think that I need to address other issues first as I have a lot of creosote buildup.

I think that my issues mostly stem from the fact that I have a magic heat installed. I guess I'm looking for all the recommendations from what appears to be a wise community. Hoping for some solid help and looking forward to making this Fisher a support efficient stove.

View attachment 310823 View attachment 310824 View attachment 310825 View attachment 310826 View attachment 310827 View attachment 310828 View attachment 310829 View attachment 310830

Indeed. Flip the pipe over. Keep the creosote inside where it belongs. Run the fire hot once a day to keep the chimney clean (maybe twice a day with that thing on your chimney). Works for us since 1982. Same fisher, same chimney. House yet to go up in flames. Coldest day this winter so far -50c. Our fisher keeps us alive. We burn pine. It’s a creosote maker! Once you know what to do it’s no biggie. Maybe even with a heat robber on the chimney. IMHO. Ymmv.
PS. It’s true. The right modern stove is a different world. A convenient, efficient different world.

 

[brenndatomu]

Make sure you are burning DRY wood (internally) and take the MH out...add a pipe damper if you need it (tall chimney?) and then look up some of @coaly info on how to put a baffle plate in your stove...that should make for a nice running setup...oh, and the pipe must go male end down (or toward the stove) always!

 

[Piney]

yes. Pipe damper (I think op has one) is essential, useful and, frankly, safety gear on that stove.
Just about to open the damper here and reload the stove to get the burn back in the ‘zone’
.
Excellent point on the damper I think.

 

[Piney]

I was expecting that response. I am using the stove in a large open space and that's why we tried the magic heat. If I remove it, I am still concerned that there will be a fair amount of creosote buildup with the overall height (~20') and size (8") of the stack.
Is there a recommended way of cleaning creosote deposits that are likely stage 3 at this point as we've been using the stove daily for the last ~6 months? Note: It didn't start seeping like that until recently.

At this point, we just need to get through the winter and aren't able to replace this stove with a newer model.

With that in mind is there anything else that we can/should do to remedy our current issues and make the most of what we've got.

I was planning to remove the Magic Heat and put a blower fan near the stove instead of that as I'm still trying to circulate as much heat as possible.

We tried all the blower fan things. Best thing turned out to be a ceiling fan running in reverse on low. Ymmv.
PS if you grow frustrated and decide to give up on the stove, and decide to visit Alaska, we can always meet you on the side of highway on the way to take it off your hands!

 

[bholler]

Indeed. Flip the pipe over. Keep the creosote inside where it belongs. Run the fire hot once a day to keep the chimney clean (maybe twice a day with that thing on your chimney). Works for us since 1982. Same fisher, same chimney. House yet to go up in flames. Coldest day this winter so far -50c. Our fisher keeps us alive. We burn pine. It’s a creosote maker! Once you know what to do it’s no biggie. Even with a heat robber on the chimney. IMHO. Ymmv.
PS. It’s true. The right modern stove is a different world. A convenient, efficient different world.

The heat robbers are absolutely horrible devices which force you to run the stove incorrectly. They should absolutely never be used. Just set up and run the stove properly.

 

[Piney]

The heat robbers are absolutely horrible devices which force you to run the stove incorrectly. They should absolutely never be used. Just set up and run the stove properly.

Good to know. Thanks!! Maybe there is a reason that, in all my born days, I’ve never seen one on a stove anywhere around here. They’re a mystery to me. Except for the info you just shared.

 

[Frankdozer]

Indeed. Flip the pipe over. Keep the creosote inside where it belongs. Run the fire hot once a day to keep the chimney clean (maybe twice a day with that thing on your chimney). Works for us since 1982. Same fisher, same chimney. House yet to go up in flames. Coldest day this winter so far -50c. Our fisher keeps us alive. We burn pine. It’s a creosote maker! Once you know what to do it’s no biggie. Maybe even with a heat robber on the chimney. IMHO. Ymmv.
PS. It’s true. The right modern stove is a different world. A convenient, efficient different world.

Can you tell me about burning pine? Here in Western Maine we strictly burn hardwood which I have to purchase every spring. A few might burn pine but I don’t know them. But I have huge pine trees on my property I’m going to cut down to expand the yard. Tried burning dry pine but it seems to burn really hot and fast. In Grandma, that would mean constantly feeding the stove.

 

[Piney]

I will. Short form: it does burn hot but spruce vanishes up the chimney even faster. Today I loaded the stove 7 hours ago with a full but not crammed firebox (only two layers of split pine) and I’ve got only a thin bed of coals (we call that ‘down to sparks’) now. It’s -10c and I ran the fire accordingly. I could have added wood an hour or so ago but I wasn’t motivated, it being so warm outside. The 2000sq ft split level house is warm despite the snow on the roof getting thin but it’s obvious that the fire should have been built up earlier. I attached a poor pic of the ‘sparks’.

Accordingly some people still use home made stoves that take longer pieces of wood. They get longer burns. But you can’t buy those and, well, ‘insurance companies’. You know.
When it’s -30 or below reloads every 4-6 hours are the norm. In the shoulder seasons 5-7 hours. Sometimes 8. (At -50 it’s 3 unless you have another stove to bring on-line and then you are back to 5-6 hours). 3 hour burns with a full firebox are so harsh people can damage their stoves.
I CAN go 12 but creosote builds up - hence the hot fire once a day to clean the chimney (which can become a light (or worse) chimney fire if you go too long between burns). But regular hot, short, burns aren’t a danger just because they scrub out the pipe. You can hear the pipe expand and the creosote tinkle down like rain on to the baffle where it reburns.
But even burning hot once a day may leave you with a chimney that must be cleaned a few times every winter with a Grandma. Mind you, when I clean it’s just to remove ash from the elbow where our pipe turns to go out the wall. There is never creosote to clean. It’s burned away (the hot fire trick works). Though chimney cap screens will plug up sometimes.
We use a Grandma so we know how this goes. The baffle mod helps.
Neighbours who use Rsf energy or Pacific Energy stoves stay clean. They sweep their chimneys twice a year. Inside chimneys fare better than through the wall. You do get a bit of roller coaster heat rather than the long even burns of hardwood but we only have pine, spruce and poplar here so pine is forced upon us.
If you clean your own chimney you can burn pine. Or it can be used conveniently in the shoulder seasons I suppose. It so normal to burn pine here that here we don’t really know what to say about how it is different.
If you need long burns with hardwood then pine would annoy you. Out here most outfits have someone in the house all the time so reloading every 4 or 6 hours is not an issue.
Ash builds up quickly.
You must have a chimney damper. Sometimes, during periods of extreme cold, people can have so much draught their fires can get away from them. This is when a damper saves you - as does knowing to put one or two fewer pieces of wood in to the firebox when reloading during such conditions.
But all stoves are different, all chimneys are different and all burning habits are different. So, off the top of my head, all this is what comes immediately to mind.
Rambling words but does that do it for you?
Any specific questions?
Ps: ymmv. Other users may have more to say. I’ve been loading pine in stoves since 1967 but that doesn’t mean I do it ‘right’. If there is a ‘right’.

 

[Piney]

the wife says just mix a piece or two of pine in with the good stuff. Or square it all in to Timbers.
So there is that. FWIW

 

[sputnik378]

Couple of things:

First of all, great community! Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated.

The Magic Heat came with the stove, and I thought I'd give it a dance because I have such a large open space to heat. When it's running it does warm up the space quickly. The main issue with it was that it was a really old unit, and both ends were tapered so you had to run the pipe upside down like that and use an adapter (real dumb). I knew it was wrong, but I tried it anyway.. I pulled the MH off yesterday and straight-piped it. So far all is well, and I came to the same conclusion as Piney about getting a fan. I'm going to put a tower fan next to the stove and I'm sure that will give the same or better output than the MH ever did.

The full stack height is about 18' with 10.5' of that being 8" stove pipe.

I do have a damper about 18" up from the outlet on the stove.

We burn mostly pine, some aspen, and cottonwood because it's what we've got in Colorado. I do have some scrub oak that I throw in at night a round usually gets us through until early in the AM. I've grown up burning these woods, and we always just burn it out once or twice a week and always clean it in the spring.

Now that I fixed the pipe, I'm certainly looking forward to welding a baffle in there. One question I had about the baffle being will it make it harder to burn with the doors open? One thing I like about the 8" pipe and the double doors is that you can have an open fireplace whenever you want and we do enjoy that from time to time. I was wondering if a baffle would push more smoke out the front ever? @coaly I am guessing it'll work fine, but I figured you'd know definitively.

 

[bholler]

Couple of things:

First of all, great community! Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated.

The Magic Heat came with the stove, and I thought I'd give it a dance because I have such a large open space to heat. When it's running it does warm up the space quickly. The main issue with it was that it was a really old unit, and both ends were tapered so you had to run the pipe upside down like that and use an adapter (real dumb). I knew it was wrong, but I tried it anyway.. I pulled the MH off yesterday and straight-piped it. So far all is well, and I came to the same conclusion as Piney about getting a fan. I'm going to put a tower fan next to the stove and I'm sure that will give the same or better output than the MH ever did.

The full stack height is about 18' with 10.5' of that being 8" stove pipe.

I do have a damper about 18" up from the outlet on the stove.

We burn mostly pine, some aspen, and cottonwood because it's what we've got in Colorado. I do have some scrub oak that I throw in at night a round usually gets us through until early in the AM. I've grown up burning these woods, and we always just burn it out once or twice a week and always clean it in the spring.

Now that I fixed the pipe, I'm certainly looking forward to welding a baffle in there. One question I had about the baffle being will it make it harder to burn with the doors open? One thing I like about the 8" pipe and the double doors is that you can have an open fireplace whenever you want and we do enjoy that from time to time. I was wondering if a baffle would push more smoke out the front ever? @coaly I am guessing it'll work fine, but I figured you'd know definitively.

Burning the chimney out is a chimney fire and is very dangerous. A hot fire once a day absolutely is not the proper way to burn. Run the temp up every time you load the stove to the top of the operating range on your pipe thermometer. Then you can shut it back and run anywhere in the operating range.

And absolutely do not weld in the baffle it will expand and cause either warping of the baffle or cracked stove sides

 

[Piney]

Yes. Every time you burn. I always do that but I guess I tend to think of it as a morning thing as I peg the needle very carefully then where as the other times I run it up to the top but don’t obsess like in the AM. But you are correct. It absolutely shouldn’t only be once a day. I would go edit my comments but they’re too old and I can’t. .

 

[Piney]

Couple of things:

First of all, great community! Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated.

The Magic Heat came with the stove, and I thought I'd give it a dance because I have such a large open space to heat. When it's running it does warm up the space quickly. The main issue with it was that it was a really old unit, and both ends were tapered so you had to run the pipe upside down like that and use an adapter (real dumb). I knew it was wrong, but I tried it anyway.. I pulled the MH off yesterday and straight-piped it. So far all is well, and I came to the same conclusion as Piney about getting a fan. I'm going to put a tower fan next to the stove and I'm sure that will give the same or better output than the MH ever did.

The full stack height is about 18' with 10.5' of that being 8" stove pipe.

I do have a damper about 18" up from the outlet on the stove.

We burn mostly pine, some aspen, and cottonwood because it's what we've got in Colorado. I do have some scrub oak that I throw in at night a round usually gets us through until early in the AM. I've grown up burning these woods, and we always just burn it out once or twice a week and always clean it in the spring.

Now that I fixed the pipe, I'm certainly looking forward to welding a baffle in there. One question I had about the baffle being will it make it harder to burn with the doors open? One thing I like about the 8" pipe and the double doors is that you can have an open fireplace whenever you want and we do enjoy that from time to time. I was wondering if a baffle would push more smoke out the front ever? @coaly I am guessing it'll work fine, but I figured you'd know definitively.

We can run the doors open with a baffle but open very slowly. We have the screen for when it’s a real fire but cooking hotdogs over coals is also a thing. Without the baffle it seems to be a better fireplace with less of a learning curve. But it’s doable.
Our baffle is ‘loose’ and sits on braces that run across from brick top to top.

 

[coaly]

Set the baffle on bricks on the side walls. By sliding bricks forward and back, you can raise and lower the front of baffle plate. Start with the opening the exhaust must pass through being the same square inch opening as the 8 inch round pipe, or 50.24 square inches. If there are any smoke roll in issues, drop the front of plate very little opening the exhaust area. This lets more heat up, increasing draft, evacuating the smoke up the flue. Never decrease the opening smaller than the outlet/ flue square inch area. There are some here that have reduced chimneys down to 6 with added baffles without issues. All depends on elevation, outdoor temperature, chimney height and pipe configuration.

You should be able to slowly close the flue damper with fire established and doors open with screen in place. When smoke forms at top of door opening, open slightly to evacuate smoke. This becomes your only control in Fireplace Mode. They are not considered a radiant heater in Fireplace Mode.