Major Chimney Problems. Conflicting Opinions. [Long Read]

[Charles1981]

I have been burning for three years. I always knew that maybe I didn’t have the best liner installed but when we first had the stove and liner installed I knew absolutely nothing about wood burning, stoves, and chimney setups. From this site I have learned that an insulated liner is key to a good burning experience. It seems most these days are installing flex liners as well.

So over time I have always known that the Installation I have may not be up to the best stands here but I did always figure that the installation was up to par to provide a safe burning experience. But now I have to second guess that.

We have a relatively new cinderblock with clay flue liner chimney system in our house that was purchased as a forclosure. It located central within the house. There is an upstairs flue and a down stairs flue (both separate and both clay lined).

The previous owners used a direct vent setup from the basement flue which is about 14x10inch or so. It is a very large clay lined flue. There was quite a bit of glazed creosote on the flue that we had swept off (it looked significantly clean after sweeping and could see most of the clay liner).

We purchased the stove from local store who used a licensed construction contractor to install almost all of their stoves. I had just started visiting this site and discussed with him installing a flex liner with insulated jacket. In his experience of 25 years installing chimneys he felt the flex liners were not as durable, and lesser quality than stainless steel liners and that the corrigations promoted creosote formation that brushes had difficulty getting. He also assured me that because we had a class A masonry chimney with clay flue liner in good shape that after sweeping the majority of the creosote out that he felt double wall or flex line was not necessary for an interior chimney. He seemed to make a good argument that the thicker SS rigid liner single wall would be ideal for longevity and durability.

So there is a 6 inch heatfab 304L Rigid stainless steel liner in place that is 25 foot approximately.

I sweep the liner every 3 months and get about 24-30oz of flakey ashy creosote for the past 3 years. So a total of 5 sweeps at this point. I just swept the chimney 2 weeks ago. Same situation.

Unfortunately I never checked AROUND the liner. The installer used some white batted insulation to block the top and bottom of the clay flue (kind of like a block off plate). The stove is 4.5 feet away from the chimney horizontally however and has a blockoff/pass through insulation wall that leads into the chimney. So I still don’t know if a steel block off plate is a necessity as the stove is 100% into the room it heats.

Well I swept the chimney 2 weeks ago and about 5 days ago an upstairs room that runs parrael to the chimney started to smell like some kind of burning. I run down to the chimney and see glazed black tar dropping from the side of the clay flue liner..NOT from inside the liner or even from the side of the liner. I used gloves and ran ALL the wood out of the firebox, shoveled all the coals out of the wood stove, shut it down. Called a different fireplace store, got a new chimney sweep recommendation and they came out today.

Here is where things get confusing for me.

The Chimney sweep claims that the entire chimney is black stove pipe. But clearly lables state it is stainless steel rigid liner. They say they don’t know what the installer was thinking installing black stove pipe for a liner….but I was like it says here it is a rigid stainless steel liner. He says nope its black pipe..??? But the sticker I showed him on the chimney says 6 inch heatfab 304L Rigid stainless steel liner.. I am kind of confused he doesn’t have a good answer.

The clean out T sits on the base of the fireplace (masonry). The new sweep says this is also not code. Probably as I have to prop the liner up with a wood block to get the T off so I can clean the flue out. When I do this the top of the liner pushes up at the top and the top block off plate is no longer on the top of the flue and therefore isn’t properly sealed at the top.

The chimney sweep runs a camera (his cell phone) down the liner. I just cleaned it and its immaculately clean. There are a few areas that look like possible rust? But you can’t really tell. There are also some areas that are screw holes that are visible without screws in them…But I’m not sure what is going on exactly.

The white insulation stuffed at the base of the chimney however is melted and turned into some weird hard candy like substance when sugar candy is made. Once it is pulled down you can see fluffy popcorn puffed creosote that is likely the chimney fire/creosote that caught on fire… but again this is all OUTSIDE the liner. The liner does move a bit and you can see some bends at some of the joints.. but it almost looks like the liner is lined by creosote now.

No obvious hole or disconnected site is seen. No obvious globs of creosote are noted dripping down the liner. It all appears to be collected along the old clay flue liner tiles.

I have called the installer. He is coming out next week to pull the liner and check it for problems. Then I am having the sweep company come out and both mechanically and chemically clean the liner. But I still don’t have a good answer as to WHY so much creosote is forming outside of the liner. The sweep company seems to want to blame it all on the use of BLACK STOVE PIPE but the Installer is pissed that they claim he installed black stove pipe when the stickers on it even say rigid ss liner.

He is still backing up his belief that I don’t REALLY need an insulated flex liner in an interior chimney and that rigid single wall ss is still ideal and more durable. He isn’t mad. He is going to pull the liner for free, but Its also pretty clear that unless I am missing something the sweep company doesn’t seem to be able to differentiate black stove pipe from stainless steel rigid lining? Or are they the same somehow?

Ultimately I feel I am going to need to get a 3rd opinion. I am sure I am going ot have to get a CSIA sweep out but there aren’t many in close proximity and the CSIA website referred me to a stove company who then referred me to a sweep who isn’t CSIA registered who came out and didn’t send the owner but a rather very young person who seemed to know what they were talking about. Except when I challenged them if the liner was SS.

I don’t know how smoke is escaping the liner which is the only possible way I can see for what is happening to occur. I will post pictures of everything I have.

1) Is my Heat Fab SS Rigid pipe SS or black pipe?
2) Code to have 6inch Rigid SS single wall in a class A Chimney that is 14x10inch?
3) Why is the liner clean but so much creosote forming OUTSIDE?!?! (Hopefully when the original installer pulls the entire liner we can get to the bottom of this better, but the cell phone down the liner didn't reveal anything other than a few screw holes...is this enough to do it?
4) Code to have the T clean out sitting on the masonry floor? The sweep seemed to feel this was a major problem.
5) 3rd opinion necessary? Neareast CSIA is about 40 miles away so It may be a pain to get them out.
6) any other questions you have for me you wish answered I would be more than happy to answer.

Again sorry for a long winded post. Just stressed, frustrated, ect. Not happy about the 300$ electric heat bills we will get over the next 2-4 weeks as we get this sorted out, but better than having a burnt down house.

 

[Charles1981]

here are a couple more photos of liner and the globs of creosote dripping on the masonry floor

 

[bholler]

Ok
1. yes it is ss from what i can see but i cant see all of it
2. Do you have 2" of clearance from the outside of the masonry structure and any combustible materials? If not which most do not your liner needs to be insulated. It does not have to be flex you can insulate the rigid.
3. My guess is that it was not cleaned properly before the liner was installed but if he used screws to fasten the sections together they will fail and the liner will separate. they should be rivets. The liner could be compromised somewhere though. And yes it looks like you had a fire between the old liner and the new one which is very dangerous. Also he used fiberglass insulation which is not to code
4. Not that i know of many times that tee is buried in a chimney so there is no access there. But i would not recommend lifting it up just vacuum the tee out
5. Yes i would From the work the first guy did i would not trust him at all. The second guy could be right i have seen guys use stainless where visible but black pipe inside. But i doubt it in this case because if he had done that he would not be coming back

 

[Charles1981]

As for the combustibles around the masonry chimney. It is surrounded by blown in cellulose insulation...which i ibelieve isnon combustible? but maybe not. I will have to get up into the attic and dig around the chimney and see if there is anything else against the cinderblock chimney.

The masonry chimney sure seemed immaculately clean when it was swept. Unfortunately I never took before/after shots 3 years ago.

The installer said the insulation was code. The chimney sweep said: This is white insulation so its code...if he used pink it wouldn't be. I don't know what that means. I know frequently everyone says fiberglass insulation is not code, but now I have 2 parties both saying that is code. I lean towards this not being code but neither party seems to be the most knowledgable.

I really feel like it is SS all the way up. It looks like stainless steel. But the sweep company sure was adamant the entire chimney was black pipe...but there is still the stickers on it that say otherwise...

 

[mol1jb]

I'll be honest that I don't know much about chimney installs but this whole story sounds a bit fishy. For example if the insulation is rated to major heat specifications, why is it melting around the pipe. Why is there a connection of 2 chimney pipes instead of 1 solid run of pipe the whole way. They make liners in all different lengths so connecting 2 would not be necessary and as bholler pointed out may fail in the future. If this installer were coming back to my house to make some fixes I would be keeping a very close eye on his work.

 

[Charles1981]

I guess what do you mean by a connection of 2 different pipes? The entire chimney would appear to be 4 feet lengths of stainless steel rigid liner except from the stove to the clean out T which IS black pipe (about a 4 foot horizontal run).

I take it there is not 25 foot sections of solid rigid liner is there? Aren't most liners that aren't flex liner a combination of multiple liner pieces? These are 4 foot sections so there are about 6 sections of 4 foot stainless steel liner. I may be missing something but i can't find anything longer than 4 feet and it is approved for wood burning.

Regardless the liner has to be pulled. He has agreed to come out and do that because he is concerned about what happened. He does seem like a nice guy, but I too feel like there is NO ONE in the area that really knows what the heck they are talking about completely either.

Then we will get the chimney cleaned. The company has an actual flu camera that can go down the chimney but doesn't fit in the liner. So we will start fresh.

My plan is to demand a double wall flex liner with insulation jacket from the installer and go from there. This was what I wanted originally. But the installer felt all of that was unnecessary and made the SS Flex liners seem of poor quality to rigid stainless steel. That said his install failed me so I am not particular to that anymore. But the liner has to be pulled first to get a good look at whats going on. And the chimney needs to be deep cleaned.

I will post some pictures soon. I just crawled out of the attic and have pictures of the chimney as it passes through the attic and roof.

 

[Charles1981]

Ok so I crawled into the attic.

On one side there is brick face that is in the living room. Behind this you can see some other block material that then makes an L around the side of the cinderblock chimney but not all the way. Unfortunately there is a hole (LOL) that you can stick the broom handle through and touch the cinderblock chimney with throughout this L of some other brick and mortar material. That being said all of these pictures are of the side of the 2nd upstairs flue that has NEVER been used. The SS liner is on the far side where I just cant physically crawl to.

On the other side (where we smelled burning) there are studs/struts? that only have at most about 1 inch between it and the cinderblock chimney. Where the hole is there is plywood board up against the 2nd layer of brick and mortar material and blown in insulation over that some of which I was seeping away to see what was up against the chimney. So I take it there is certainly not 2 inches of non-combustible material against the chimney.

There also is some strange plastic material along the room that appears corrugated that I have no idea what the heck that is. Maybe some of you can identify it?

Also the chimney passes through the roof...which is plywood base... Does that negate 2 inches of dead space around it as well? And there are roof trusses butting up against the cinderblock chimney as well.

Here is who has looked at the house and/or chimney:
House inspector (before Purchase) - Creosote, call a sweep, went into attic for 20 minutes. Didn't bring up any concerns.
Chimney Inspector (Before Purchase) - Chimney looks brand new almost, just needs a crown and new flashing around where it passes through roof. Didn't crawl into the attic though.
Stove installer - Recommended a sweep to clean the chimney and look at it as well.
Original Sweep (installer recommendation)- Chimney looks great, just gatta get the creosote out. swept the crap out of it and said good to go.
Installer installed stove and liked the original sweeps job.
New sweep company - Can't seem to ID black pipe from stainless steel which was their big concern, but otherwise wants to do a mechanical and chemical sweep which does not seem out of reason. Didn't make any comments about the masonry chimney other than the creosote lining it.

So a long string of "professionals" each leaving to me wonder if anyone in the area can really accurately give me a straight answer or is knowledgeable fully of the situation, how to diagnose it, and how to fix it.

I called my local fire department to come out and take a look and guess what.. the lady on the phone was rude and said they don't send their firemen out to inspect chimneys or installs and wouldn't let me talk to someone else. I had to call another townships fire department who didn't want to get involved but has told me to call back my townships FD and ask for the voicemail of the Fire Marshall because the next door township was more than happy to send a fireman out but they can't because they don't have jurisdiction. The other fire department had no idea why mine would speak to me and refuse to send someone out to look at what could have been a chimney fire (albeit nothing technically caught of fire that is visible other than the creosote.) She just kept telling me if there was an active fire to call 911 lol but other than that if there was no active fire they would not send anyone out.

This whole experience has been very disheartening.

 

[Charles1981]

Here is an image of the living room side. But this is the upstairs flue. No real concerns. The right side of the image is where the pictures are coming from. The left side next to this flue is where the problem flue is comming from the basement. The patch you see in the ceiling looks to be where that weird plastic crap up against the roof was installed.

I would have to start taking out wall and ceiling dry wall probably at this point upstairs and down stairs to start getting an Idea of whats going on around all the blown in insulation ect.

 

[mol1jb]

The plastic pieces in between your roof joist are vent baffles to keep the attic ventilated and make sure insulation doesn't block up that space. Where abouts in MI do you live? My parents live in Flint and my dad burns every winter in his fireplace insert. If you are close to them I could ask him for the name of his sweep.

 

[Charles1981]

My concern with that explanation is it is nowhere else in the attic. Just there. And it just so happens that in the picture of the living room hearth that the patch you see in the ceiling is exactly where that baffle is installed. But maybe? Its only at most a 4x4 or 5x5 section. And only around the front portion of this chimney.

 

[Charles1981]

Ill take the name of his sweep but flint is about 75 minutes away. And If I call a another party out at this point its going to be someone CSIA certified... I guess as a tie breaker opinion?

 

[Charles1981]

Ok well this thread reads more like a journal so sorry, but just wanted to keep everything updated.

I called the fire marshal and spoke to him in person. He won't send someone out to look at all, but did recommend I contact the county building department. They wont come out but recommended Doctor Flue as the people to call to come out. The company and all of its sweeps are CSIA certified at least and they sound professional and at least have an answering service to pickup your phone when you call. They are going to inspect the liner, chimney, and get into the attic and looked at the area I have taken photos of and write up a report with pictures as well.

After they take a look then I will probably have the installer pull the liner next week and go off of the recommendations of this company as they seem to be the most qualified.

 

[woodhog73]

Sorry to hear about all of these issues.

My guess is the fire department doesn't want to assume the liability if they inspect the system and something happens down the road. Too bad they were rude though. Isn't the marshall an elected position? You could remember that when it comes time to vote. Sorry off topic.

I have nothing of value to help but have been reading your post and just feel bad your dealing with this. I hope you get reimbursed from the installer your cost of having the new inspection done.

Good luck and hopefully you get it sorted out

 

[Corey]

Will throw out a few quick thoughts...

1) Is my Heat Fab SS Rigid pipe SS or black pipe?

Your '5518.jpg' photo seems to show pipe which is substantially black on the outside...though there is a small band of silver appearing at the bottom. I suspect there is so much creosote on the outside, it may look like black pipe...but actually stainless underneath? I believe there is also an animal called 'black stainless steel' pipe (duravent?)... though that doesn't seem to be an issue here. Either way, a quick test with a magnet would put this to rest...304 is austenitic stainless steel and not magnetic...plain black pipe is magnetic. Grab one of those stove-top thermostats and see what happens.

2) Code to have 6inch Rigid SS single wall in a class A Chimney that is 14x10inch?

I think some are going to come back and argue no...at least not without a full insulating jacket, but I don't think it's the root cause of the issue here.

3) Why is the liner clean but so much creosote forming OUTSIDE?!?! (Hopefully when the original installer pulls the entire liner we can get to the bottom of this better, but the cell phone down the liner didn't reveal anything other than a few screw holes...is this enough to do it?

I doubt 'a few screw holes' would be enough to let so much creosote out...especially considering the flue is generally under negative pressure and would want to pull air in through the hole, though they may be indicative of other symptoms. Generally, I think only 3 screws are required per joint. If 'a few' are missing...ie 3 from one joint, this could create a huge problem. (see below)


4) Code to have the T clean out sitting on the masonry floor? The sweep seemed to feel this was a major problem.

Again, I don't know on code, but I would tend to agree...anything which requires you to lift the entire rigid liner up/down for each cleaning would be a huge issue in my book. Every up/down cycle is putting a lot of bending on each/every joint, possibly loosening screws. Further, there is a great risk you could lift the liner up for cleaning and when it settles back down, the top would get hung up. Now you're stretching the liner out and it could slip apart at a joint with already missing, or loose screws.

If the pipe slips apart, you'd be dumping a huge amount of smoke into the cool space between the liner and the clay flue, which would creosote things up just like you see.

5) 3rd opinion necessary? Neareast CSIA is about 40 miles away so It may be a pain to get them out.

Get as many as you feel comfortable with, but you only need one 'right' opinion. I guess the big kicker to me would be to pull the liner back out. Every joint should look like your '5518.jpg' photo... black pipe with an abrupt transition to shiny stainless steel metal. If / when you find one joint with no screws and that shiny band is dull/creosoted metal which looks like it's been exposed to the creosote both inside and out, that will be the culprit showing where the liner pulled apart.

6) any other questions you have for me you wish answered I would be more than happy to answer.

Keep us posted on what you find.

 

[bholler]

As for the combustibles around the masonry chimney. It is surrounded by blown in cellulose insulation...which i ibelieve isnon combustible? but maybe not. I will have to get up into the attic and dig around the chimney and see if there is anything else against the cinderblock chimney.

Cellulose is not non combustible it cant be in contact without an insulated liner in there by code.

The masonry chimney sure seemed immaculately clean when it was swept. Unfortunately I never took before/after shots 3 years ago.

If it was then the liner is compromised somewhere. But there is allot of burnt creosote in the smoke chamber to which makes my think it was not cleaned properly. But i could be wrong i am not there to see it.

The installer said the insulation was code. The chimney sweep said: This is white insulation so its code...if he used pink it wouldn't be. I don't know what that means. I know frequently everyone says fiberglass insulation is not code, but now I have 2 parties both saying that is code. I lean towards this not being code but neither party seems to be the most knowledgable.

If it was the right insulation it would not melt.

I really feel like it is SS all the way up. It looks like stainless steel. But the sweep company sure was adamant the entire chimney was black pipe...but there is still the stickers on it that say otherwise...

I would guess that it probably is but again i am not there to see it.

 

[bholler]

http://www.rumford.com/code/clearances.html

Here is the aplicable code that requires the 2" for interiour chimney which i thought yours was but if it is exterior then it only needs 1" But you say the insulation and trusses are in contact wich is enough to require an insulated liner.

I take it there is not 25 foot sections of solid rigid liner is there? Aren't most liners that aren't flex liner a combination of multiple liner pieces? These are 4 foot sections so there are about 6 sections of 4 foot stainless steel liner. I may be missing something but i can't find anything longer than 4 feet and it is approved for wood burning.

Correct rigid liners are in sections but they need to be riveted together not screwed

My plan is to demand a double wall flex liner with insulation jacket from the installer and go from there. This was what I wanted originally. But the installer felt all of that was unnecessary and made the SS Flex liners seem of poor quality to rigid stainless steel.

Well you absolutely do not want double layer flex unless you are referring to the preinsulated stuff with an inner wall then insulation then the oouter wall. The 2 ply smooth interior stuff is junk in my opinion. Regular corrugated light wall is fine but we use heavy wall flex liners for wood. It is smooth wall and is as durable as rigid with out the danger of seams failing. But since you already have rigid assuming it is stainless i would just have it pulled cleaned up screws replaced with rivets then insulated and reinstalled.

 

[Charles1981]

Thanks for all the feedback.

The sweep company that sent the young man out that thought the entire chimney was black pipe is sending the owner out to take another once over Monday. I will see if he will look in the attic as well.

Then Tuesday the CSIA company will be out to do their own take and they have promised to take a look at the masonry chimney for sure and seem competent.

So I will come back and update this thread when I know more info.

you all have given me a lot of material to come with a big list of questions to ask.

 

[bholler]

I will say regardless of the clearance issue i would insulate the liner anyway. It really does help with performance as well

 

[Charles1981]

It is getting pulled and I will insist no matter what, new liner, old liner flex or rigit (although at this time we aren't a big fan of having rigid and having joints that can fail) but we will discuss it further with the CSIA company and ensure what goes back in is insulated

What is the material in the insulation blankets that go around the flex liners / any liner made of?

 

[bholler]

What is the material in the insulation blankets that go around the flex liners / any liner made of?

Mineral or ceramic wool

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Charles, this sounds like a stressful experience, sorry to hear about your travails. I got the feeling that I was going down the same road when I had four different installers come out to discuss what they would do for my install. That was when I really discovered this site, and decided that I'd rather listen to the folks here who are really only doing it for the love of the game. So, I did it myself rather than trying to tell some installer that I was paying a couple of grand how to do their job (and we all love that, don't we). Get the magnet to check out the rigid pipe (stainless won't stick to the magnet), rivet and insulate it, cut it to the right length to get the T where it should be, or just ditch it on CL and go for a good insulated flexible liner and stop worrying about joints except at the top and bottom.

I'd stop listening to the people who don't know what they are doing, and they are telling you who they are by doing stuff like using "white" fiberglass that melts, putting your T on the hearth, not correctly insulating the liner, ignoring code clearances, not correctly fastening the joints of the pipe, incorrectly identifying product (if they don't know the magnet trick to ID stainless, I wouldn't want them near my stuff). I know you have already invested money in these people, but you can and should stop throwing good money after bad. But, really, what's the worst that can happen? The house burns down with you and the family in it?

 

[Charles1981]

The information is good/great here but I can't go to my insurance company and use this place as a reference as to why my install job is better than a licensed company. My wife also doesn't trust me or want to trust me when it comes to properly installing something related to fire. I do a OK job with dry wall, tiling, installing the wood flooring in our house, fixing plumbing but I don't do a great job. Its good enough. And if something like that screws up the house doesn't burn down.

So regardless of whether or not I think I could do a better job it still has to be someone who is liscened and insured. But then that doesn't mean you are getting someone who whats whats for either. But then at least there is someone other than myself that could be held responsible rather then it all falling on myself.

I see many people here installing their own setups. And I know why. Its almost half the price. 800 vs 1600$. But I always think in the back of my mind what happens if ultimately it falls upon their install job?

And ultimately this still happeend because while I was cleaning out the liner every 3 months I never pulled down the insulation to see if smoke was accumulating OUTSIDE the liner...Maybe this was a problems going on since installation, or maybe when I swept the liner 2 weeks ago I finally popped enough rivets or dislodged the liner enough that this all came flaring up in a very short period of time. I just don't know.

Someone has to clean the darn chimney out though after the liner is pull and that won't be me. It is a mess up there.

 

[yooper08]

Man, that's gotta be frustrating.

I will say this though, you're on the right path w/ Doctor Flue. I've had Dr Flue out to my house before to inspect my masonry chimney once I got serious about adding my insert, and I thought they were excellent. They'll do a thorough job and tell you all that you need to know. The owner burns, the two guys that came to the house burned, and they're all certified, so they know what they're talking about. Given your experience so far, I'd only listen to what these guys have to say.

And as a matter of fact, I'm thinking about having them do an install. Debating whether or not to do it myself, but if I had someone do it for me, I'm having them do it. So if you're looking for someone to reline your chimney, ask them about it while they're there and they'll assess what all needs to be done and give you a quote.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

The information is good/great here but I can't go to my insurance company and use this place as a reference as to why my install job is better than a licensed company. My wife also doesn't trust me or want to trust me when it comes to properly installing something related to fire. I do a OK job with dry wall, tiling, installing the wood flooring in our house, fixing plumbing but I don't do a great job. Its good enough. And if something like that screws up the house doesn't burn down.

So regardless of whether or not I think I could do a better job it still has to be someone who is liscened and insured. But then that doesn't mean you are getting someone who whats whats for either. But then at least there is someone other than myself that could be held responsible rather then it all falling on myself.

I see many people here installing their own setups. And I know why. Its almost half the price. 800 vs 1600$. But I always think in the back of my mind what happens if ultimately it falls upon their install job?

And ultimately this still happeend because while I was cleaning out the liner every 3 months I never pulled down the insulation to see if smoke was accumulating OUTSIDE the liner...Maybe this was a problems going on since installation, or maybe when I swept the liner 2 weeks ago I finally popped enough rivets or dislodged the liner enough that this all came flaring up in a very short period of time. I just don't know.

Someone has to clean the darn chimney out though after the liner is pull and that won't be me. It is a mess up there.

Fair enough, this work is not for everyone (it is really hard, dirty, dangerous, expensive to make mistakes, etc.), and while cost was an important factor, I had the strong feeling that I was going to get into a situation like yours based on my interactions with potential installers. Good luck getting this all worked out, I hope one of the certified folks come over and clean this whole mess up for you so you can get burning again.

 

[Woody Stover]

If it's HeatFab 304, I would use it, rivet it like bholler said, and insulate it. I would also put the stove closer to the fireplace, and get rid of the long horizontal section if possible.