Manchester problems

[NMcowman]

Hi Folks, I'm in desperate need of some help from more experienced people. Have a Manchester. Stove works fine until I try to engage the cat (at the proper temp). Then stove goes black. No air flow. When I open the bypass to resuscitate the fire, I get a very frightening explosion in the firebox. It then works fine (without cat). Spoken with dealer, who spoke with rep, both useless.

If I clean the cats and reinstall, per manual, it might work for a little while (as it did when first purchased) but then problem quickly returns. Cats don't seem that dirty, but there is gray ash. I am careful to not stir ash up when operating stove.


Very frustrating to have this expensive stove that will not function. What am I doing wrong?

My setup: very tall insulated stack with one 45 turn at ceiling. Wood is pinon (standard in northern NM) that and has been drying in the New Mexico sun for two years.

 

[Kevin Weis]

I'm sure others will chime in here but right off could be not enough of a coal bed established before the bypass is closed. Or your primary air setting not open enough. This is with the idea that everything is good with your chimney set up and properly dried firewood which it sounds and looks like it is. That chimney should draw very well. Might want to check to make sure the primary air is actually opening when you activate it and there's not some adjustment issue there.

 

[ozarkoak]

I'm sure you know but the explosion is unburned wood gasses igniting all at once. When I accidentally snuff out my fire box I open the door prior to letting it ignite again to prevent that from happening. I dont think that its a good idea to let that happen especially in a soapstone stove. Don't want to blow out your glass either. No idea on the catalytic issue never used a stove with one of those.

 

[webby3650]

You are leaving the primary air on full when this happens? When you say the cats aren’t very dirty, are they partially clogged? The cats in these stoves have been a real problem.

 

[NMcowman]

I'm sure others will chime in here but right off could be not enough of a coal bed established before the bypass is closed. Or your primary air setting not open enough. This is with the idea that everything is good with your chimney set up and properly dried firewood which it sounds and looks like it is. That chimney should draw very well. Might want to check to make sure the primary air is actually opening when you activate it and there's not some adjustment issue there.

Thanks so much for this. The bed of coals variable is probably not a concern, as I usually have one, but I you are right: I do tend to have the air shut down considerably when I close the bypass. I tried to close the bypass with the air open, on your advice, and I did get more time before it went black, but it went black nonetheless. It bought me maybe 1.5 hours rather than 1.5 minutes. To truly test this, I will have to let it go cold (while it's 20 degrees outside), clean the cats again, and give it another shot. Thanks!

If it ever comes up, I cannot recommend the Hearthstone Manchester to anyone.

 

[NMcowman]

I'm sure you know but the explosion is unburned wood gasses igniting all at once. When I accidentally snuff out my fire box I open the door prior to letting it ignite again to prevent that from happening. I dont think that its a good idea to let that happen especially in a soapstone stove. Don't want to blow out your glass either. No idea on the catalytic issue never used a stove with one of those.

Believe me, I don't want this to happen! Once I see it going black, I open the bypass immediately to avoid this. But thanks. It is very scary.

 

[NMcowman]

You are leaving the primary air on full when this happens? When you say the cats aren’t very dirty, are they partially clogged? The cats in these stoves have been a real problem.

I have not been leaving the primary air on full. But that is the recommendation from above, and opening it further did seem to help. Is that your recommendation? The cats are fussy as all heck!

 

[John E. Law]

I know your wood is dry but maybe it’s the high sap or resin content in that wood is gumming up the catalyst. I’m not familiar with that kind of wood but in Western, NY I avoid burning any kind of pine in a fireplace or wood stove because it can leave a lot of sticky or tacky deposits inside the chimney or vent stack when those vapors or fumes cool on their way to the exit. Could get dangerous.

I have the same Manchester wood stove and I don’t always engage the catalyst. Maybe run it for a while without the catalyst engaged - like several hot burns for a few days. I may get roasted for this, but it’s a hybrid stove so you don’t have to engage the catalyst. It’s possible the deposits in and on the catalyst will burn off. Consider trying a different type of wood or when you burn wood that has sap - don’t engage the catalyst. Just some ideas from a short time owner of a Manchester but longtime owner of wood stoves and fireplaces. Good luck, I know it has to be frustrating.

 

[webby3650]

I have not been leaving the primary air on full. But that is the recommendation from above, and opening it further did seem to help. Is that your recommendation? The cats are fussy as all heck!

Typically, the primary air is left open for a bit after the bypass is closed.
I’m sure it’s been discussed, I didn’t read it all. Have you tested the moisture content of the wood on a fresh split? Not burning isn’t a complaint we’ve seen, quite the opposite… these hybrids tend to run away rather than smolder.

 

[NMcowman]

Good news! Thanks to assistance from this forum, I've had excellent performance from my Manchester after months and months of absolute frustration and completely useless dealer and factory reps. Y'all made it happen. I was on the edge of giving up on ever using the cat. For a week straight now, I have enjoyed factory-spec performance! Thank you hearth.com folks. I hope these tips help the next newbie Manchester user:

Tips for Making your Fussy Manchester Work (starting with a baseline of sparkling clean catalytic inserts):

1) This is key: Keep the air open generously during, and for several minutes after, shutting the bypass (engaging cat). I was not doing this. This may be the most important thing I learned here. I don't recall this being the manual, but maybe it is.

2) Before shutting bypass (engaging cat), run stove hot (gauge deep in the silver zone) for a long time (1.5 hours). This is not just a matter of waiting for temp gauge to hit the designated zone. Once it's been running hot for awhile, I find I can wait just 10-15 minutes before engaging bypass after refilling the firebox.

3) Form the rock-solid habit of engaging bypass every single time you open the stove. Easy to forget when you're new.

4) My wood was absolutely dry, but I did notice, as one of our forum members mentioned, some burning sap on a particular type of log in my pile that was naturally full of resin (or whatever). I now save those for the regular fireplace I use just for show.

5) When I light the fire, I use only a small, golfball size, ball of brown shopping bag. No more. I take the time to make and use lots of small kindling. This reduces any chance of ash.

6) Every action within the firebox needs to minimize disturbing ash. No poking or pushing ash around. Do not disturb! Ash is the enemy!

 

[fldivemaster16]

Good news! Thanks to assistance from this forum, I've had excellent performance from my Manchester after months and months of absolute frustration and completely useless dealer and factory reps. Y'all made it happen. I was on the edge of giving up on ever using the cat. For a week straight now, I have enjoyed factory-spec performance! Thank you hearth.com folks. I hope these tips help the next newbie Manchester user:

Tips for Making your Fussy Manchester Work (starting with a baseline of sparkling clean catalytic inserts):

1) This is key: Keep the air open generously during, and for several minutes after, shutting the bypass (engaging cat). I was not doing this. This may be the most important thing I learned here. I don't recall this being the manual, but maybe it is.

2) Before shutting bypass (engaging cat), run stove hot (gauge deep in the silver zone) for a long time (1.5 hours). This is not just a matter of waiting for temp gauge to hit the designated zone. Once it's been running hot for awhile, I find I can wait just 10-15 minutes before engaging bypass after refilling the firebox.

3) Form the rock-solid habit of engaging bypass every single time you open the stove. Easy to forget when you're new.

4) My wood was absolutely dry, but I did notice, as one of our forum members mentioned, some burning sap on a particular type of log in my pile that was naturally full of resin (or whatever). I now save those for the regular fireplace I use just for show.

5) When I light the fire, I use only a small, golfball size, ball of brown shopping bag. No more. I take the time to make and use lots of small kindling. This reduces any chance of ash.

6) Every action within the firebox needs to minimize disturbing ash. No poking or pushing ash around. Do not disturb! Ash is the enemy!

I am also new owner of a Manchester stove(Oct 23) and I have found this info helpful but I have a few questions for the people commenting here as you seem to be a well knowledgeable group.

With my Manchester we have on and off experienced a little bit of wood burning smell. It is usually once I have activated the bypass and closed the air down for long slow burns. Most commonly at night or when we leave and come back and notice the strong smell. I was in touch with my dealer and installer and the only thing that they guessed is that I’m not leaving the bypass off long enough after loading even though the stove has a large bed of hot coals and is well in the catalyst range causing an excess buildup of smoke. Does that sound right to you guys? My 2 areas of concern that smells smoky are the side loading door and if I need to tighten the door somehow and at the collar connecting to the single walled pipe. I noticed today that there seems to be some soot on the black pipe at the collar. (Second photo)
For reference my stove set up is as follows. I have an external cinder block clay tile lined chimney that was lined with 17’ of stainless flex liner. Stainless tee that is connected to 3’ single walled black pipe to the stove with 2 45° elbows.

Your 6th point you talk about not disturbing the ash. I didn’t see anything directly in this thread unless I missed it. Every morning I open my ash pan door and grate and stir the coals and ash around to deposit the prior days ash in the ash pan below. Is this something I shouldn’t be doing? I don’t think I have any issues with the catalyst because of it. Also to note my stove has been running nonstop since end of October other than being off for the week of Thanksgiving travel. We haven’t needed to relight it but 2 or 3 times. Every morning we have had a decent bed of coals to reignite the next load even without kindling.

Thanks in advance for any advice you guys have for me.
Ke
NMcowman- When you were having trouble with the stove getting smothered out the only thing you should do is open the bypass to allow smoke to escape and slowly add air by opening the air control to allow it to light back up or until it clears up. If you have hot coals that you can’t see and open a door and add air quickly the unburned smoke gas could light off all at once giving you that explosion type of ignition-that is also know to fire fighter as a backdraft. If done on a large scale like when fire fighters enter structures on fire or break to many windows before ventilating the roof to allow smoke gasses to escape the building can explode. Sounds like you don’t have that problem anymore but be careful to not allow too much oxygen in all at once if that happens again in the future.

 

[NYLuke]

I am also new owner of a Manchester stove(Oct 23) and I have found this info helpful but I have a few questions for the people commenting here as you seem to be a well knowledgeable group.

With my Manchester we have on and off experienced a little bit of wood burning smell. It is usually once I have activated the bypass and closed the air down for long slow burns. Most commonly at night or when we leave and come back and notice the strong smell. I was in touch with my dealer and installer and the only thing that they guessed is that I’m not leaving the bypass off long enough after loading even though the stove has a large bed of hot coals and is well in the catalyst range causing an excess buildup of smoke. Does that sound right to you guys?

Your 6th point you talk about not disturbing the ash. I didn’t see anything directly in this thread unless I missed it. Every morning I open my ash pan door and grate and stir the coals and ash around to deposit the prior days ash in the ash pan below. Is this something I shouldn’t be doing? I don’t think I have any issues with the catalyst because of it. Also to note my stove has been running nonstop since end of October other than being off for the week of Thanksgiving travel. We haven’t needed to relight it but 2 or 3 times. Every morning we have had a decent bed of coals to reignite the next load even without kindling.

I am new to the Manchester myself this year, and yes, I've experienced the exact same thing. The cat probe has to be buried in the designated range before engaging the cat to eliminate that smoky smell.

Additionally I noticed that the I get the smell faster and it is stronger when I haven't cleaned the fly ash off the cats in a while. I have found that when there is buildup on the cats, the smoke builds up in the stove, tends to dampen the fire just a little and I get the smoke smell faster.

As for the fly ash, I noticed that if the stove isn't drafting hard, the ash doesn't tend to take off as much when I am disturbing the coals and forcing the ash through the grate. So I typically only do this, same as you, in the morning after an overnight burn, but I've cleaned/ vacuumed the cats at least once every 3 weeks since October. That said, I do notice a significant performance increase and elimination of the smoky smell after I clean the catalyst of fly ash. When I start to get it again, I know its time to clean the cats.

I think the biggest learning curve I had to get past was to disregard the cat temp probe provided on my stove. At least in my case, I dont think it was calibrated correctly. It signals that the cat can be engaged well prior to when I found that it should. I placed a stove temp on the outside of the stove next to the cat probe and now only engage when the temp on the exterior of the stove is at a minimum of 325 or even better 350. This typically means the cat temp probe on my stove is buried, either at the edge of or just into the overfire range . This also seems to eliminate the smoky smell you are mentioning. Vacuuming the cats and engaging when hotter should help to almost eliminate the smell you are experiencing. It has for me.

Be well and be warm!

 

[Bill S]

Woah! That woodpile is looks mighty close to the stove.... It might be within spec but not a safe distance!

Otherwise - lots of great strategies to get the Hearthstone to perform at it's best. Definitely run it hot, then engage the cat, then run it hot so it can "burn off." Then damp as you might with the primary air but don't deprive it of O2. I clean my cats every 3 weeks of the fine gray "fly ash" - easy to do and worth the 5-10 minutes (it takes).

 

[fldivemaster16]

Thanks for the warning. I move the rack.

How long do you let the stove cool down before you clean your cats? We are using the stove constantly so I’m curious if you try to clean them off when the stove is at all still warm or if you wait until it’s cold? Any suggestions on a good ash vacuum?

I had looked into the blower for the unit but for this year it is cost prohibitive. So this is my solution and I may not get a blower as this seems to be working nicely. It’s a 3 speed. Off, 1 fan, or 2 fans. 😆 By adding the timer that it’s plugged into I run the fans for usually the first 4 hours at night when I head to bed and then it turns off to not cool the stove off to much. $10 for each fan and maybe $15 for the timer (I had already owned that)

Anyone put the blower kit on their stove after not having one? Was it worth it?

 

[Bill S]

fldivemaster16 - those are cool little fans and I applaud your use of the timer - very "elegant" as they say in engineering circles (not that I'm in that circle). Re: cat cleaning - I do it in the morning when my stove is 100 - 150 sometimes 200 degrees. I open the door, scoop out the ash, make a little (often not too little) pile of coals and I put my ash bucket top over them. I usually don't even need gloves - out comes the cotter pin, baffle and then I use a flashlight to shine on the cats, my trusty oooold Electrolux to gently vacuum the cats - VERY gently. And then everything back together, throw on some kindling and viola' the fire continues. Except for the vacuuming, I can do it without looking! Nice clean cats really make the stove work as it should. After a few weeks, they still work, just not as robustly (if that's a word). I make sure I'm vacuuming only the fly ash on the cats and keep the vacuum isolated for the rest of the day. Never a problem.

Thanks for moving your wood pile. A long time ago I did some chimney sweeping. One customer had wood that close and it was charred! Ready for ignition. Also, I was a volunteer fire fighter - stoves too close to combustibles really do ignite the combustibles! That and some good roaring chimney fires. Stay safe!