minisplit: big name or DIY-friendly ?

[RustyShackleford]

I want to install a ductless minisplit heat pump in a mountain vacation house that we recently acquired and which currently has only electric-resistance heat. I am a handy DIY person, and feel I can handle the whole install, except for the freon. But I'm not sure how to proceed.

I get the distinct impression that the big name brands, specifically Fujitsu and Mitsubishi, are of higher build quality. There is no question that the specs are superior, specifically efficiency (COP and HSPF) and cold-weather performance. And they are not that much more expensive (when bought from online outfits such as ecomfort) than the DIY-friendly brands such as MrCool and BlueRidge.

I've found an HVAC contractor in the area who is content to let me do all of the install except for the line-set (or the freon, if I install the line-set) and he'll come in and finish up, charging me for his time and any add'l freon he has to add. This sounds great, except a local friend, who also does HVAC (but doesn't want to travel to the vacation place), asserts that if I buy Fujitsu or Mitsubishi online, I will be SOL when it comes to warranty. Period. He really likes BlueRidge, and says they are very DIY-friendly (even the units w/o precharged line-sets), but their units seem far less efficient.

So I don't know how to proceed. Ideally, I'd find a licensed Fujitsu contractor, who'll buy and install the system but let me cut my costs by doing stuff like running the electrical (which I'm fully competent to do), mounting the outdoor unit, and planning the route of the line-set, drilling holes and maybe installing some conduit for it.

 

[peakbagger]

As I have stated before, there is rarely warranty service done on most name brand minisplits unless there was a design defect. This is from a few years ago when I was doing projects at hospitals when I asked techs they all were pretty clear that it was rare to have the units break down except from non warranty issues. The biggest issue by far is owner caused damage, followed by failure to clean the units. In the vast majority of cases, the service call was paid for by the client. I have heard from a few techs, including the ones that did my unit that they do not trust the long term tightness of ferrule type tubing fittings and brazed them but ultimately the tubing connections are mechanical flare fittings.

I have seen a lot of so called professional installations that are doomed to short service life, the outdoor units get stuffed in odd places where debris can build up or splash from roofs can kick up dirt into the outdoor unit. I know the preference is to just sit the outdoor unit on the ground on blocks to prevent possible vibration issues from a wall mount but that IMHO is big tradeoff. It usually gets the unit out away from the building into the splash zone off the roof and into the line of fire from lawn care (and snow pack if in snow zone). I much prefer then up off the ground on wall mount. They are in far less of the line of fire. Make sure the line sets are completely protected in a "gutter" from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit. Be aware that the foam insulation on the tubing as it passes through the hole in the wall can easily be chewed away leading to mouse highway into the structure. I have not found or seen a good solution to this issue. I used hardware cloth wrapped tightly around the foam.

There are videos on You Tube on how to clean the indoor air handlers. The trickiest part is disassembly.

 

[EbS-P]

So there are lots of online retailers that will sell you a name brand unit. I’d ask them how warranties are handled. But I will say MR cool seems to doing more online advertising. The price for a single unit really can’t be touched by a name brand installed or even commissioned by a pro. And MR cool warranties aren’t bad.

Mr cool 18k btu unit was 1/3 the cost of the lowest quote I got. Worst case scenario I think you install it all and it craps out and you can’t get any warranty. At which time you’ve done about 500-1000$ of work that won’t need to be done for a pro to come and install a name brand. It’s a gamble. Probably one id make at a vacation house or as a second heat source. Worst case loss isn’t going to make the home inhabitable. Loosing 1000$ sucks, so I haven’t looked at any retirement accounts this year and probably won’t next year either. Mr cool seems worth a shot. Costco had them for a while cheaper than anyone else.

As a second house, and I’m just guessing, that cost savings upfront will offset and efficiency gains by name brand units.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Okay, thanks guys.

Heard from local HVAC tech - the guy said he'd do the freon if I do the rest - and he can't get Fujitsu, but CAN get Daikan, which I gather is comparable quality to Fujitsu and Mistubishi. So maybe I can get the best of both worlds: top-level quality, warranteed, but install not too expensive since I mostly DIY.

Unfortunately though, Daikan doesn't seem to support wifi control (control when not at the house) which is show-stopper for wife :-(

BlueRidge's top products are made by Gree, which I gather is pretty good quality, so maybe that's an answer.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Sorry about spazzy formatting. Can't seem to fix it ...

As I have stated before, there is rarely warranty service done on most name brand minisplits unless there was a design defect. This is from a few years ago when I was doing projects at hospitals when I asked techs they all were pretty clear that it was rare to have the units break down except from non warranty issues.{/quote]
Which would argue in favor of getting the top-performing/top-reliability Fujitsu (or Mitsubishi) and keeping my fingers crossed.

they do not trust the long term tightness of ferrule type tubing fittings

You mean the push-to-connect ones (like Sharkbite plumbing fittings) ? My local HVAC friend swears by them, not because he doesn't know how to make a good flare, but because they allow free rotation - which rotation that takes place while bending and running the lineset (esp. while installing the indoor unit) stresses flares - he says.

I much prefer then up off the ground on wall mount.

Definitely intend to do this. The ground is very sloped where I want to put outdoor unit. And I think it gets lots of snow.

 

[peakbagger]

The ferrule style fittings are not shark bite. Swagelock is the primary ferrule type fitting. A back nut is slid over the tube, then a tight fitting metal ring is slid over a clean piece of tubing, then the backnut is tightened. The ring is shrunk down over the tube for good. I agree the Sharkbites can rotate but I have not seen them used in industry.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I've also heard an argument that because something like Fujitsu has so much better specs, that it's more highly-engineered, thus more complex to diagnose and repair. Kinda like a Lambroghini versus a Subaru.

 

[peakbagger]

I tend to disagree, with Chinese clone equipment, the reason for the cheap price is cheap components and shortcuts in construction plus disregard of patents and other IP. Very few techs troubleshoot beyond hooking up a set of gauges to see if there is refrigerant in the lines and a making sure the indoor and outdoor coils are not clogged. If you have looked inside even the name brand units, they sure are not designed to be worked on. Even if someone did want to work on them, good luck buying parts for a China clone unit.

My guess is if you are buying multiples of the same low cost unit, just buy a spare and sit it on a shelf, that is effectively what the HVAC dealer does, they work with a regional distributor that has inventory and when a current model does break down, the distributor will pull a spare off the shelf and deliver it to the tech.

There is also psychology in play with a consumer, when the AC goes out in a hot stretch cost is usually less important than getting it going. The tech inevitably gives the owner a choice after he has done the basic unit and refrigerant check, he can either order in a replacement outdoor unit or he can convince the owner that a typical HVAC unit life is 5 to 10 years and he can put a new unit in that he has sitting on the shelf in the shop. For most folks they will take the new unit, charge it on the credit card and worry about paying the card off later.

Folks forget, first cost is only part of purchase, with power costs going up and things like time of use power rates, the cost to operate a unit over its lifecycle makes putting in the most efficient unit possible with the longest potential life the best long term purchase.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

You just made a very strong argument for insulating the snot out of the place so the choice of heating/cooling is an afterthought.

 

[begreen]

Some of the Chinese brands are sold with precharged linesets and quick connect fittings. Mr. Cool is an example. For what is being described I think that's the way I would do it. That said, Daikin is a top-quality Japanese brand that has been making mini-splits for a long time. Their unit should work out well.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Some of the Chinese brands are sold with precharged linesets and quick connect fittings. Mr. Cool is an example. For what is being described I think that's the way I would do it. That said, Daikin is a top-quality Japanese brand that has been making mini-splits for a long time. Their unit should work out well.

All of the MrCool DIY units have heating performance that rolls off significantly between 17 and 5 degrees, providing inadequate heating at low temps. One of their non-DIY models heats well at low temps, but is as expensive as comparable Fujitsu and Mitsubishi models, and it's not clear the warranty picture is any better.

Daikin looks great performance-wise, and I gather is comparable to Fujitsu and Mitsubishi in build quality. Daikin is the only one of the three that the small jobber (who I've approached about working with my DIY'ing everything but the freon) can source. But, it has no option for remote (from miles away) control; for an often-unoccupied place in a cold climate, this could be invaluable for avoiding pipes freezing.

 

[EbS-P]

All of the MrCool DIY units have heating performance that rolls off significantly between 17 and 5 degrees, providing inadequate heating at low temps. One of their non-DIY models heats well at low temps, but is as expensive as comparable Fujitsu and Mitsubishi models, and it's not clear the warranty picture is any better.

Daikin looks great performance-wise, and I gather is comparable to Fujitsu and Mitsubishi in build quality. Daikin is the only one of the three that the small jobber (who I've approached about working with my DIY'ing everything but the freon) can source. But, it has no option for remote (from miles away) control; for an often-unoccupied place in a cold climate, this could be invaluable for avoiding pipes freezing.

My feelings are that I would not want to rely on a internet connection for freeze protection. Set the minisplit to a low but safe value and then rhe baseboard heat 5 degrees lower than the minisplit.

How many hours a year is the temp below 17? Yeah it rolls off and yes that’s when you need the most heat. But I really think a correctly sized unit with a backup heat source is the way to go. Any heatpump that is correctly sized for normal temps will not have the capacity near or below record cold temperatures. I wast not really happy the Mr Cool s minimum output. It was much higher than the others.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

All of the MrCool DIY units have heating performance that rolls off significantly between 17 and 5 degrees, providing inadequate heating at low temps. One of their non-DIY models heats well at low temps, but is as expensive as comparable Fujitsu and Mitsubishi models, and it's not clear the warranty picture is any better.

Daikin looks great performance-wise, and I gather is comparable to Fujitsu and Mitsubishi in build quality. Daikin is the only one of the three that the small jobber (who I've approached about working with my DIY'ing everything but the freon) can source. But, it has no option for remote (from miles away) control; for an often-unoccupied place in a cold climate, this could be invaluable for avoiding pipes freezing.

I see you’re based out of NC. I assume that the vacation home is somewhere close. How often are you going to be below 17 degrees?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Why not winterize the pipes before you leave? It doesn’t take long for you to refill the water heater and a drained pipe doesn’t freeze.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Set the minisplit to a low but safe value and then rhe baseboard heat 5 degrees lower than the minisplit.

Maybe so. The Fujitsu doesn't really seem to support wifi either, and I really like it.

How many hours a year is the temp below 17? Yeah it rolls off and yes that’s when you need the most heat. But I really think a correctly sized unit with a backup heat source is the way to go. Any heatpump that is correctly sized for normal temps will not have the capacity near or below record cold temperatures. I wast not really happy the Mr Cool s minimum output. It was much higher than the others.

That's another advantage of the big-name units. Check this Fujitsu out: https://ashp.neep.org/#!/product/51830/7/25000///0 . Maintains full output down to 5 degrees, yet can go down to 2800 btu/hr at 47 degrees - that's less than a friggin' hair dryer ! So I believe I can have the best of both worlds, if I go with a hgh-end unit. Yet it's only $2200 not that much more than a comparable MrCool or BlueRidge. But no warranty, Hence my conundrum.

 

[RustyShackleford]

I see you’re based out of NC. I assume that the vacation home is somewhere close. How often are you going to be below 17 degrees?

One issue with this (also with the suggestion to drain the pipes) is that we're going to be renting the place out; not sure how much, but it's got to be at least some for the first two years, because we bought it partially with a 1031 rollover, so have to treat it as investment property for the first two years of ownership. And it's in the mountains near a ski resort, so I imagine a lot of mid-winter rental. Can't really expect renters to refill water-heater and pipes, nor expect them to be cold when temp drops below 17 degrees.

 

[EbS-P]

One issue with this (also with the suggestion to drain the pipes) is that we're going to be renting the place out; not sure how much, but it's got to be at least some for the first two years, because we bought it partially with a 1031 rollover, so have to treat it as investment property for the first two years of ownership. And it's in the mountains near a ski resort, so I imagine a lot of mid-winter rental. Can't really expect renters to refill water-heater and pipes, nor expect them to be cold when temp drops below 17 degrees.

Even the NC mountains don’t have real winters

If it will be used as a rental even part time reliability is probably worth it. You can even deduct the cost of furnishings (so I heard somewhere). I need to talk my parents into 1031. Turn down seem more important do dehumidification than heat.

 

[begreen]

We have a local neighbor that was an early adopter and put a Fujitsu 1 ton mini in their old farm house about 12 yrs ago. I was visiting them during a particularly bitter cold snap. It was 16º outside and the Fuji was quietly purring away. The house was a cozy 72 inside. That impressed me. I recommended Fujitsu to a friend and he put in 2 in his house several years ago and has been very happy with them.
As for wifi, would a Nest thermostat or the like solve that issue?

 

[RustyShackleford]

We have a local neighbor that was an early adopter and put a Fujitsu 1 ton mini in their old farm house about 12 yrs ago. I was visiting them during a particularly bitter cold snap. It was 16º outside and the Fuji was quietly purring away. The house was a cozy 72 inside.

Can you say, how big and well-insulated was this place ?

 

[begreen]

Can you say, how big and well-insulated was this place ?

Small, older farmhouse, guessing 800 sq ft. ? Not super insulated.

 

[semipro]

As for wifi, would a Nest thermostat or the like solve that issue?

And probably a better solution in the long run since they can be easily integrated with Smart Home systems. The Ecobee has worked well for us.

 

[peakbagger]

Down at -17F no minisplit is going to be putting out any more than nameplate. One ton is 12,000 Btu/hr. That is not a lot of heat on a -17 F day. At best, the efficiency will be 1.0 the same as electric heat. A typical home with oil heat may have 85,000 btu/hr oil boiler and on a -17F day its going to be running fairly steady. Dont guess do a manual J Load calculation and install enough heat for the worst case.

As I mentioned before a friend of the family was winding down his long term business of selling and servicing Monitor Vented Kerosene heaters. His daughter was helping him but they figured that the demand was not there, once minisplits got popular in Maine, the phone started ringing when folks with minisplits discovered when got much below zero that the quality and quantity of heat put out by minisplit just was not enough for the house. He had a barn full of Monitors he had removed from homes that were in big demand so he started rebuilding them with what parts he could find on the market as Monitor went out of business years ago. He also sells new Toyostoves that burn K-1 as well as low sulfur heating fuel. Both brands are slick rigs, to someone nor famliar with the, they look a pellet stove with just one hole drilled through the wall for a combined air intake/exhaust. Most of them have remote bulk tank with lift pump to supply the units. The do need annual cleaning and services especially if there are pets in house. but they serve the cold weather heating needs while the minisplit serves the demand for temps over 10F where the COPs are higher.

With renters I probably would just install electric baseboard for the cold weather, if they are paying the electric bills they will figure out that the minisplit is the way go except during very cold weather.

 

[SpaceBus]

If I were in your shoes, especially looking at the potential for renters, I would get the Daikin or Fujitsu. I'm sure the Chinese units are probably fine 90% of the time, and their stellar warranty makes up for the other 10%, but when you have paying customers the most reliable unit is the best choice. How much does the amazing warranty matter when you need to replace an outdoor unit in the middle of your peak rental season? Since you are talking about short term/seasonal rentals, the higher efficiency is even more important. I doubt you are going to be billing the customer for the power they used, so the most efficient option saves you the most money.

Having the electric resistance heat for back-up is also pretty nice and it can take over in the night on the coldest days of winter and your renters will never know.

 

[RustyShackleford]

And probably a better solution in the long run since they can be easily integrated with Smart Home systems. The Ecobee has worked well for us.

I don't think a Nest or an Ecobee (or any other 3rd-party thermostat) can be integrated with a minisplit.

But the dual-fuel heat pump in our primary residence has a failing fossil fuel kit (a PCB in the furnace that decides when to switchover between the heat pump and the furnace). I picked up an NIB Nest for $50, so I'm going to use it and ditch the PCB. So I'll learn stuff about the Nest.

 

[EbS-P]

I don't think a Nest or an Ecobee (or any other 3rd-party thermostat) can be integrated with a minisplit.

But the dual-fuel heat pump in our primary residence has a failing fossil fuel kit (a PCB in the furnace that decides when to switchover between the heat pump and the furnace). I picked up an NIB Nest for $50, so I'm going to use it and ditch the PCB. So I'll learn stuff about the Nest.

I think they should be. Unit just needs the call signal and a temperature of the tool so not can ramp up and down.

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