Japanese heat pump worth the extra cost ?

[RustyShackleford]

I'm trying to decide between two heat pumps with inverter compressors; either should be able to heat (and cool) my place without any backup (propane furnace or heat strips). One's a re-badged Midea for $3300 or so, the other is a Fujitsu for $5300. It's a pretty huge price differential. My HVAC friend, who's gonna help with the install and warranty, thinks the extra cost of the Fujitsu isn't justified (never mind the $8000 Mitsubishi).

Blueridge BMAH3618 36,000 BTU 18 SEER Ultra Efficient Ducted Heat Pump/Air Handler System

www.alpinehomeair.com

Fujitsu 36LMAS1 - 36k BTU Cooling + Heating - Multi-Position Air Handler System - 17.1 SEER2

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www.ecomfort.com

So I have a hunch - maybe it's not a new idea - and I'm wondering what my HVAC-savvy friends here think.

It seems a pretty widely-held belief that the Japanese manufacturers, primarily Fujitsu and Mitsubishi, are in a league of their own, as far as quality of manufacture. Many would argue that the big American name brands such as Carrier are comparable.

I'm wondering if the perception of quality is due to differences in how the products are installed. That is, it's hard for DIY'ers to purchase Fujitsu and Mitsubishi, or at least to purchase with warranty coverage. In contrast, the various re-brandings of the big Chinese manufactuers like Midea and Gree, brands like Mr Cool, ACIQ, and Blueridge, can be bought by any bozo. Thus the quality of the average install is far inferior for the Chinese-made brands.

So perhaps the quality of the equipment is not necessarily inferior. Or at least the difference doesn't justify the price discrepancy.

Note the fact that brands like Carrier are mostly installed by pros, and are perceived as being as good as the Japanese brands. And if I understand correctly, a lot of those units are now manufactured in China.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It might be compromises made to make them easier to install by the average homeowner also. Double flared fittings might be better than what Mr Cool uses, but you need a flare kit and you need to be able to charge the system.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

And Chinese manufacturing seems to be all over the place as far as quality goes.

 

[EbS-P]

It’s is the realm where one needs lots of data points. Did you post the question on hvac.com. If so not much discussion there. They like to solve problems over there not so much help navigating bug picture things. General consensus over there is DIY sucks we can’t help you. And the installer is just as important as the equipment.

So I looked up the Fujitsu system. Cooling COP at rated load is 3.3 at 100%. My 2009 system calculates out to 3.2 At 90% rated capacity Heating COP17 of my 2009 my system is 2.55 at 55% rated. Fujitsu is 2.2 at 100%. So all the efficiency is at part load. We knew that already.

COP cooling for the blue ridge is 2.9 and heating is COP17 is 2.5 at 83%.

The Fuijisu system is definitely more efficient but probably not enough to make up the price difference. Certainly one could spend the difference in cost on extra insulation and make up something but it’s a long ROI.

Last point, seeing brand new trane heatpump out back was a big selling point for me (and more so for our Realtor) when we bought this house.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yeah, the online HVAC forums are not very friendly places. I've tried hvac-talk.com, with little success. And of course stackexchange is effin' horrible. THIS forum is the best, thanks to you and others.

This job isn't exactly DIY (unlike the minisplit up in the moutains). My friend is a licensed HVAC man. But I'll do as much as I can.

The Fuijisu system is definitely more efficient but probably not enough to make up the price difference.

Well, if efficiency is the only advantage of the Fujitsu, then I don't care. Esp. as I'll be using the thing very little for cooling, until I get too old to chop firewood. The main reason I'd pay more is better build quality, specifically how long it keeps working well.

Last point, seeing brand new trane heatpump out back was a big selling point for me (and more so for our Realtor) when we bought this house.

Effect on re-sale value isn't really a concern for me at this point.

And, I REALLY want to put propane in the rearview ...

 

[EbS-P]

I think a good bit of it is risk Vs savings. I buy bagels mostly when they are on sale no risk save 30%. I did spend a lot extra on my dehumidifier. Like $1500 more for the newest most efficient top of the line unit. For something that will run as much as it does I did think it was worth it.

My biggest concern would be parts availability if something broke. Name brands you could call around and possibly get something fixed sooner. If my AC goes down in July or August 48 hours is all I could do before all 7 of us move in with my parents. Where you have another mini split and a wood stove you have a backup. Seems like Alpine honors warranties from what little I read. So you are probably just out the labor. And that probably only matters if you have to replace a compressor unit or and evaporator gets a leak. Both seem unlikely.

I really think the Mr cool approach to DIYing heat pumps is going have effects on the industry. One I don’t hold in very high regard. But it’s still a race to the bottom cheapest quote wins over a quality install. Trane still has compressor failures.


Last question for you why does ASHP.NEEP not list these units as qualified for the the tax credit in the south?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

My biggest concern would be parts availability if something broke. Name brands you could call around and possibly get something fixed sooner. If my AC goes down in July or August 48 hours is all I could do before all 7 of us move in with my parents.

I bet that ranks as one of your parent’s concerns too! Lol

 

[RustyShackleford]

Where you have another mini split and a wood stove you have a backup.

Yes, I have those for backup.

Seems like Alpine honors warranties from what little I read.

Yes, my HVAC contractor friend is a big fan of Alpine and of Blueridge (despite realizing it's a re-branded Midea).

Another factor though, there's another re-branded Midea, brand name ACIQ, that's clearly the identical unit to the Blueridge I linked (the specs are the same down to the last btu/hr).

ACiQ 3 Ton 18 SEER High Efficiency Central Heat Pump System | Inverter | Extreme Heat

ACiQ's Central Series split systems give you the latest intelligent heat pump technology and superior comfort, all at a reasonable cost. The ACiQ single zone series ACiQ-36-AHB / ACiQ-36-HPB system includes a state-of-the-art, variable, inverter heat pump condenser, paired with a highly...

hvacdirect.com

BUT, the warranty is 12 years (instead of 7). So wondering whether to go that way, with him having had such positive experiences with Alpine and warranty. He suggests calling that site and asking for tech support and see what kind of vibe I get.

Last question for you why does ASHP.NEEP not list these units as qualified for the the tax credit in the south?

Beats the hell out of me. I think for the "south" it simply needs to be EnergyStar, which it's not. And yet, I'm going to stop burning propane, a fossil fuel. It's ridiculous.

 

[begreen]

What would make it worth the extra cost for me besides better performance is increased reliability and good part support 5-10 yrs later. Lord knows what our relations with China will be then.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Will there be a China as we know it in 5-10 years? I’m not confident we’ll recognize it.

 

[EbS-P]

Will there be a China as we know it in 5-10 years? I’m not confident we’ll recognize it.

If things go south we will be a world of hurt. Their economy too. Look at the largest export markets. I Don’t see why Hong Kong is even counted as an export country. The US is 3 times larger market than the next country. Japan and South Korea, both would choose US over China.

I get they are trying to expand borders and influence but I don’t see how continuing to escalate be your posturing gain them much. Our economy needs them. It’s no accident that all these heat pumps are made over there.

 

[fbelec]

if you research all of those brands you will probably find that most of them are made in china. i wire samsung and so far no problems with the units. i think it is 4 or 5 years now and we don't have any issues. we use to install daikin but had so issues not much and the gree is the same unit with different badging. i wouldn't trust a trane as far as i can throw it. fix them quite a bit

 

[RustyShackleford]

if you research all of those brands you will probably find that most of them are made in china.

The so-called Japanese brands such as Fujitsu and Mitsubishi, you mean ?

 

[RustyShackleford]

I've also just realized that for these split centrally-ducted systems with variable-speed compressors, of all the various brands I've checked, the indoor unit only has 3 or maybe 4 fan speeds, not variable like a mini-split.

Makes me wonder, because if you ramp back the refrigerant flow (from compressor) and keep the fan speed constant, you lose latent capacity, right ?

 

[EbS-P]

I've also just realized that for these split centrally-ducted systems with variable-speed compressors, of all the various brands I've checked, the indoor unit only has 3 or maybe 4 fan speeds, not variable like a mini-split.

Makes me wonder, because if you ramp back the refrigerant flow (from compressor) and keep the fan speed constant, you lose latent capacity, right ?

Yes. That’s why I asked earlier. For green grass climates I really think this is or can problematic especially if you oversize your equipment to meet a larger heating demand than cooling.

Like right now my ac is cycling some but the dehumidifier is running a lot. It’s not an easy problem to figure out. Goes back to my recommendation of a two stage system.

 

[begreen]

The so-called Japanese brands such as Fujitsu and Mitsubishi, you mean ?

Or Korean brands such as Samsung, LG?

 

[farmwithjunk]

I've also just realized that for these split centrally-ducted systems with variable-speed compressors, of all the various brands I've checked, the indoor unit only has 3 or maybe 4 fan speeds, not variable like a mini-split.

Makes me wonder, because if you ramp back the refrigerant flow (from compressor) and keep the fan speed constant, you lose latent capacity, right ?

Looks like Mr Cool has an 8 speed air handler for their ducted 4/5 ton units. I didn't check their 2/3 but probably the same.

You'd lose capacity but wouldn't you gain efficiency extracting all the energy from the coil?

 

[farmwithjunk]

Yes, I have those for backup.

Yes, my HVAC contractor friend is a big fan of Alpine and of Blueridge (despite realizing it's a re-branded Midea).

Another factor though, there's another re-branded Midea, brand name ACIQ, that's clearly the identical unit to the Blueridge I linked (the specs are the same down to the last btu/hr).

ACiQ 3 Ton 18 SEER High Efficiency Central Heat Pump System | Inverter | Extreme Heat

ACiQ's Central Series split systems give you the latest intelligent heat pump technology and superior comfort, all at a reasonable cost. The ACiQ single zone series ACiQ-36-AHB / ACiQ-36-HPB system includes a state-of-the-art, variable, inverter heat pump condenser, paired with a highly...

hvacdirect.com

BUT, the warranty is 12 years (instead of 7). So wondering whether to go that way, with him having had such positive experiences with Alpine and warranty. He suggests calling that site and asking for tech support and see what kind of vibe I get.


Beats the hell out of me. I think for the "south" it simply needs to be EnergyStar, which it's not. And yet, I'm going to stop burning propane, a fossil fuel. It's ridiculous.

That 12 year warranty doesn't count if self installed. Not sure what is required for the 12 year warranty but kind of misleading with the fine print. I think Mr Cool's warranty is applied for self-installed.

The HVAC centered forums say they are all junk for the most part but can't provide direct expereince. I wonder if its because it cuts into their business and shows that hardware is marked up considerably? Reading actual comments from homeowners and them having their name brand units fail multiple times within so many years really doesn't make a case for the name brand units being far more reliable. I understand that most hardware is covered for 5-10 years but when that doesn't include labor or refrigerant thats kinda worthless in my opinion.

 

[RustyShackleford]

Yes. That’s why I asked earlier. For green grass climates I really think this is or can problematic especially if you oversize your equipment to meet a larger heating demand than cooling.

I guess I'm in a green grass climate, like you, being in central NC. The various calculators such as https://hvac.betterbuiltnw.com/ do give me pretty much equal heating and cooling loads though.

Goes back to my recommendation of a two stage system.

Dang, I think I missed that. Not in this thread. Hate to ask this, but can you point me to what you said or repeat it ? Thanks. I can't quite figure out how to tell if heat pumps are one- or two-stage.

 

[ShaneMac]

Looks like Mr Cool has an 8 speed air handler for their ducted 4/5 ton units. I didn't check their 2/3 but probably the same.

You'd lose capacity but wouldn't you gain efficiency extracting all the energy from the coil?

Do you need a special thermostat to handle the 8 speeds on air handler?

 

[farmwithjunk]

Do you need a special thermostat to handle the 8 speeds on air handler?

I think it's automatic but a quick look at their manual and it might have dip switches for additional settings.

 

[ShaneMac]

I'm looking at a Moovair/Midea system now. My house calls for 2.5 and rather not over size plus my ducts won't support 3 ton very well. Limited me to Midea, Fujitsu and Mijitsu, the 7k/9k premium compared to the midea is not worth it to me. I will miss the fully communication but I'm ok with that for the cost. Would like a slow speed for the air handler but does not look possible. Too bad the unit does not support 3 fan speeds on 24v, the ecobee supports it

 

[Highbeam]

Parts availability? Who cares? I don’t think anybody is fixing these things. They get replaced unless it is very easy like a control board swap.

 

[EbS-P]

I'm looking at a Moovair/Midea system now. My house calls for 2.5 and rather not over size plus my ducts won't support 3 ton very well. Limited me to Midea, Fujitsu and Mijitsu, the 7k/9k premium compared to the midea is not worth it to me. I will miss the fully communication but I'm ok with that for the cost. Would like a slow speed for the air handler but does not look possible. Too bad the unit does not support 3 fan speeds on 24v, the ecobee supports it

Fan speed is critical for proper dehumidification. These single fan speed units paired with variable speed compressors will be fine for heat but I don’t see how they will dehumidify properly under partial load. But if you are person that opened the doors and windows as soon as it’s cooler outside than inside maybe you really don’t care to keep inside humidity under 59%. But again I’m in one of the most humid regions of the US. My dehumidifier is running a lot this time of year.

 

[begreen]

Parts availability? Who cares? I don’t think anybody is fixing these things. They get replaced unless it is very easy like a control board swap.

This might be true for a homeowner installed inexpensive Mr. Cool, but that's definitely not the case for a good central hvac system. There are various parts that can fail overtime that are worth fixing. In addition to control valves, relays and valves go occasionally and are relatively easy to replace.