Moisture Content Test, 10/29/15 thru 4/29/16 versus 4/29/16 thru 10/29/16

[TedyOH]

So, first I'd like to say that I'm sure Spring / Summer will win, but by how much? This experiment will take a year to complete. The first measurement will be in 6 months, I will split the split with a wedge on 4/29 so I get as close to center as possible... Now on to the testing media....the wood is from an Ash tree that fell to the EAB. As you can see in the pic, it's the center of a 28" round. The dates on the wood is the time frame the wood will be fully exposed to the elements, stacked on top of my oak, starting today, uncovered. The black line is where I split the split to get the moisture % and the 2 equal test subjects (which I thought was high MC for a elevated off the ground ash trunk) I will knock the snow of the split when it gets covered, only fair since nothing will be covering the other piece during the summer. The 4/29 - 10/29 split I vacuum packed and have in the basement, so no moisture will be lost, I'm concerned about that sealed piece getting moldy, if I notice mold I will toss it in the freezer. Now for the "why / who gives a sh..." I feel deep freeze winter extracts a lot of moisture from a split, I want to know how much. I also want to know how much more moisture the summer sun removes. I also picked ash because I need firewood for next year, only split oak and bitternut this year. I also want to know how good of a stacking / staging area I have for seasoning. The pic of the split on the stack show NSEW, the date is facing due south, my stacks run west to east, NNW prevailing winds. My prediction for the 4/29 MC reading is going to be 25% and for the 10/29 reading it will be 18%. Any other guesses?

 

[Wood Duck]

I am not sure why you vacuum packed a piece rather than simply measuring the moisture content now. Another thing to consider is that the best data is an average of numerous measurements, rather than one carefully controlled measurement. Why not measure the center moisture content of ten splits now, ten in six months, and ten in six months after that?

 

[TedyOH]

I am not sure why you vacuum packed a piece rather than simply measuring the moisture content now. Another think got consider is that the best data is an average of numerous measurements, rather than one carefully controlled measurement. Why not measure the center moisture content of ten splits now, ten in six months, and ten in six months after that?

I did measure it, both pieces or halves measured at 53.5% today at 5pm - I sealed it because I want to test that split after it's exposed to the elements but not exposed until 4/29/16 to 10/29/16. It is as close to identical to the piece I set out to dry today so I had to seal the split to preserve it's moisture content, it will be opened come 4/29 and tested on 10/29 for moisture content. My goal is to see the different seasoning effects on wood, comparing to fall and winter to spring and summer.

 

[jatoxico]

I applaud your enthusiasm but I have to say you seem to setting up to get the result you want. Your initial statement from the previous thread that I differed with was that you felt that drying conditions in the dead of winter were equally good as dead of summer. That is simply untrue as any of the university and other professional studies have shown.

Now a small split sitting on top of a stack for 5 months may in fact reach its EMC in your selected time period in any given year. Hell it's 70 here today. The general statement regarding winter/summer stands but there are many variables out of control due to climate.

Weigh your split or as Wood Duck says a couple splits, every month, keep temp records and then do the same for some summer splits. BTW moisture meters are inaccurate if the wood is cold and will read false low.

 

[Woody Stover]

drying conditions in the dead of winter were equally good as dead of summer. That is simply untrue

You don't need sun, but there's no substitute for heat to get those molecules moving.

 

[paul bunion]

I still suggest you get a scale. A decent one is the same price as a moisture meter. Although your test subjects might have a consistent moisture content throughout when you split them, they will dry unevenly. A scale will account for the unevenness because you are sampling the entire piece. The weight loss overall will give you an accurate picture. Using a scale you can also inspect your test subjects whenever you want, it's a non destructive test. And you can easily calculate the current moisture content just knowing the starting content (which you have), starting weight and current weight. It lets you see how things are going at any time without destroying your test subjects.

 

[TedyOH]

I applaud your enthusiasm but I have to say you seem to setting up to get the result you want. Your initial statement from the previous thread that I differed with was that you felt that drying conditions in the dead of winter were equally good as dead of summer. That is simply untrue as any of the university and other professional studies have shown.

Now a small split sitting on top of a stack for 5 months may in fact reach its EMC in your selected time period in any given year. Hell it's 70 here today. The general statement regarding winter/summer stands but there are many variables out of control due to climate.

Weigh your split or as Wood Duck says a couple splits, every month, keep temp records and then do the same for some summer splits. BTW moisture meters are inaccurate if the wood is cold and will read false low.

I'm not setting anything up, I've owned a moisture meter for 3 months, who knows, when I measure the split it may only be at 35% come 4/29, you may be right. The 10/29/16 piece may be at 10% - this is why I'm doing this, 6 months of cold weather results vs 6 months of warm weather, you seem to believe what the government tells you and their tests results cannot be questioned, I on the other hand hardly believe anything big government tells me. Although I did originally say "the same" winter vs summer I pulled back from that and said / hoping it's "close" (within 5 to 10%) - you said you and the government believe winter drying is minimal, I think winter drying it's substantial and am checking my own seasoning techniques.

I agree with you on the split being on top - that's optimal conditions so today I will bury it about 4 rows down, plus this way I do not have to bother knocking the snow off.

I'm not bothering weighing splits, cheap scales are just that, cheap and inaccurate - I have two almost identical splits that were one, both halves have identical MC%, each will dry for 6 different months, I will test the MC% after 6 months, good enough for me. (I will bring the split inside on 4/29 for and hour if it happens to be cold that day before I split it to check it)

 

[TedyOH]

I still suggest you get a scale. A decent one is the same price as a moisture meter. Although your test subjects might have a consistent moisture content throughout when you split them, they will dry unevenly. A scale will account for the unevenness because you are sampling the entire piece. The weight loss overall will give you an accurate picture. Using a scale you can also inspect your test subjects whenever you want, it's a non destructive test. And you can easily calculate the current moisture content just knowing the starting content (which you have), starting weight and current weight. It lets you see how things are going at any time without destroying your test subjects.

Thanks Paul but again a $30 scale is cheap and inaccurate. The spits will dry unevenly, this is why I am testing - I want to know by how much, how much better is summer drying than winter.

 

[jatoxico]

you seem to believe what the government tells you and their tests results cannot be questioned, I on the other hand hardly believe anything big government tells me.

Really didn't mean to offend you. I think putting the split where the majority of wood resides in a stack is more realistic. As far as big gov't. These results were generated by multiple groups (commercial/academic/gov't) but seriously what could anyone possibly expect to gain especially when their results would so easily be disproved in practice? Mainly they are intended to provide industry guidelines for good practices when air drying lumber. With millions of dollars on the line these folks have looked at this extensively.

 

[kennyp2339]

keep us posted on the results, I understand ahead of time that there are many variables that only a true scientific test can eliminate but I'm interested is hearing about the overall simple test of winter vs summer.
Maybe cut a 3rd piece and measure the moisture and keep it vacuumed sealed for the whole test, it acts as the control -

 

[Supersurvey]

What would be the normal MC of fresh cut wood. (Ash). 53% seams high to me. Is that normal?

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

I have searched this. Fresh Ash has (on average) a moisture content of 40%.

Edit: and should dry faster than other woods, as I understand.

 

[TedyOH]

Really didn't mean to offend you. I think putting the split where the majority of wood resides in a stack is more realistic. As far as big gov't. These results were generated by multiple groups (commercial/academic/gov't) but seriously what could anyone possibly expect to gain especially when their results would so easily be disproved in practice? Mainly they are intended to provide industry guidelines for good practices when air drying lumber. With millions of dollars on the line these folks have looked at this extensively.

Trust me - no offense taken - I dry firewood, firewood in Ohio, not lumber in a lumber yard, the lumber yard test may have been done in the state of Oregon or Washington - basically they have the humidity of rain forests - my test seems to make sense in my simple minded brain, some may want to know how firewood dries in the winter, I am one.

 

[TedyOH]

keep us posted on the results, I understand ahead of time that there are many variables that only a true scientific test can eliminate but I'm interested is hearing about the overall simple test of winter vs summer.
Maybe cut a 3rd piece and measure the moisture and keep it vacuumed sealed for the whole test, it acts as the control -

Will do - 1st result will be in at the end of April. "Simple Test" - I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to do here.
I will re-measure the vacuum sealed piece once I open it, with no possible evaporation happening, the surface should still be close to 53% I would think.

 

[TedyOH]

What would be the normal MC of fresh cut wood. (Ash). 53% seams high to me. Is that normal?

Not sure what the norm is for ash - seemed high to me as well, probably because the measurement was taken at dead nut center of a 100+ year old tree, when it was 1 or 2 years old.

 

[Jan Pijpelink]

 

[jatoxico]

I dry firewood, firewood in Ohio, not lumber in a lumber yard, the lumber yard test may have been done in the state of Oregon or Washington

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time but they had data from all of North Amer, in all types of wood. They also presented charted data of specific drying times starting in every nearly month in Madison WI, Roanoke VA, Phil PA, Flagstaff AZ, Vancouver BC and Everett WA. I gave you the Madison numbers earlier which were done using oak as representative on northern conditions. Presumably ash would dry quicker than oak but the relative times would be unchanged.

 

[TedyOH]

I'm really not trying to give you a hard time but they had data from all of North Amer, in all types of wood. They also presented charted data of specific drying times starting in every nearly month in Madison WI, Roanoke VA, Phil PA, Flagstaff AZ, Vancouver BC and Everett WA. I gave you the Madison numbers earlier which were done using oak as representative on northern conditions. Presumably ash would dry quicker than oak but the relative times would be unchanged.

Cool - I wonder if these big lumbar companies, or companies that run the tests, could or would "fudge" their results or numbers, maybe to make them look a little better, maybe to represent a superior product, be able to charge a premium for that oak or whatever they are selling?

 

[Longstreet]

You are a conspiracy theorist it seems. I like that. One with an idea which isn't correct, but I like it none the less.

No matter how your experiment turns out, it won't change the data from numerous studies which say your theory is incorrect. But it will give us 12 months worth of conversation.

Seriously, some of the members here sound like cranky out people yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN!" Or would it be "GET AWAY FROM MY WOOD STACKS!"? I half way expect to see some of you at a science fair shaming everyone for wasting their time doing something 100 million other people have already done.

 

[TedyOH]

You are a conspiracy theorist it seems. I like that. One with an idea which isn't correct, but I like it none the less.

No matter how your experiment turns out, it won't change the data from numerous studies which say your theory is incorrect. But it will give us 12 months worth of conversation.

Seriously, some of the members here sound like cranky out people yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN!" Or would it be "GET AWAY FROM MY WOOD STACKS!"? I half way expect to see some of you at a science fair shaming everyone for wasting their time doing something 100 million other people have already done.

Yeah no one cooks books either.

It does matter how "MY" experiment turns out, it taken under "MY" conditions. I don't care about other tests and other test conditions.

You realize water boils at different temperatures at different altitudes? Add salt to the water and more stuff changes? Get where I am going?

'MY" test - "MY" yard - "MY" wood - "MY" wind - "MY sun and shade '"MY" conditions -"MY" results.

 

[paul bunion]

View attachment 165653

Be careful with your facts and what you are comparing things to. The chart that you have referenced is a wet basis chart. (It's quite obvious based on the fact that nothing is listed at over 100% and willow is well over 100% on a dry basis). Moisture meters read on a dry basis. From that chart, white oak at 40% on a wet basis will be at 66% on a dry basis.

Wet basis is the weight of water/total weight. Dry basis is weight of water/ weight of bone dry wood.

So on a wet basis 40% water means 60% wood as 40+60=100%. On a dry basis 40/60=2/3. The water is 2/3 the weight of the wood or 66%

 

[Woody Stover]

Fresh Ash has (on average) a moisture content of 40%.
Edit: and should dry faster than other woods, as I understand.

As I understand it, Ash doesn't dry much faster than most other woods, but probably will dry faster than Oak, due to differences in cell structure. I think the main reason that Ash is known to be faster-drying is because it starts at a lower moisture content. A lot of the dead White Ash I cut will be in the mid to high 20s, whereas a lot of other woods will be in the mid 30s when cut dead.

 

[TedyOH]

Just about 3 months into the 6 winter months of testing and the split is looking pretty much as expected, showing signs of drying, although it really has only has been below 32 for about 10 straight days here. I was expecting colder weather but it is what it is.

 

[Poindexter]

Good luck to you, I look forward to your results.

I too am curious to know how dry wood will/can get when seasoned below freezing only.

Certainly a larger sample size is desirable, but your wife will probably only let you have so much for freezer space for this.

I would probably put the vacuum packed split in the freezer now to keep mold from taking root rather than waiting to freeze it later.

Best wishes, look forward to seeing this thread bumped later.

 

[Jay106n]

I remember reading this when you first posted. I'm subscribed now. I too think winter has decent drying potential as well (low humidity, dry air, high winds), although lacks temperature, there is still plenty of sunshine. As expected, summer is probably king, but I'm looking forward to seeing your results.