Moving - need advice on wood vs propane

[Manitoulin Maples]

Hey guys...I've been absent for a long time...what can I say...life happens!

So my wife and I just bought a 1430 sq.ft. house (one floor - open concept) that has electric heat but also was designed for a woodstove with a nice central brick hearth and masonry chimney. At some point this was converted to propane with a radiant style space heater. I think its a Cozy model, about 40,000b btu's. I've been trying to decide whether to keep the propane or install my woodstove. I'll try and lay out the details, because some of these details are important to note, and then hopefully some of you will have suggestions:

- I can buy the 2002 model PE Super 27 I've been using from our landlord for a whopping good deal - I used it for the last three years and it's amazing, mint shape and rated at 72,000 btu's
- I'd have to get a stainless steel liner installed in the chimney as the aluminum liner for the propane space heater won't suffice
- I have the option right now to get the 1000 gallon propane tank removed from the property by the current owners and therefore don't have to pay for the fuel as part of the house deal - it's about 1/3 full and we've calculated the cost to buy the existing fuel and actually it's close to the same cost as buying the used woodstove and getting a new liner installed
- all the propane lines and regulators would stay in the house and the space heater too, just the rental tank and fuel gets removed so the current owners get credit and close their account. I could always get a new rental tank down the road if we wanted to hook up the space heater somewhere else, like the crawlspace for example. or looking long term we could even do a propane furnace install in the crawlspace as it has about 5 feet of headroom...propane tankless hot water heater, kitchen stove, etc.,
- I have 10 face cords of seasoned wood ready for this winter, and a woodshed that I could disassemble and also take, these are bonuses but also significantly add to the hassle of moving
- the hearth base in the new house would need to be extended or have something put down in front of it to get the 18 inches needed in front of the Super 27 door - I'm about 5inches shy. this is not a huge deal in the long run as we want to replace the carpet with laminate wood and remove the floor hearth bricks to make a more clean and modern look. a simple tile hearth pad could be installed then but for the short term I'd have to screw cement board down in front of the semi circle brick or rip out some carpet and install some tiles right away.

So basically it comes down to cash flow right now, which we are tight on. The propane is turn key, clean and reliable. We walk in and it works, and offsets the cost of electric which is the whole point of this. However, the current owners don't know how it works in winter b/c they go to Florida. So, we have no idea how efficient it is or how much fuel it uses. Will I have to phone the supply company mid winter b/c the space heater is a hog on fuel??? On the other hand, the wood and wood shed are a pain to move, it's messy and will take some time to get everything installed to be up and running. But when it's done I know I have a reliable heat source and already know what the stove is capable of. I also have a saw, lots of wood gear and access to land to harvest from so still seems like the cheapest option of all, but the most work or course...especially now. People I've asked who don't burn wood think i'm nuts to consider moving my wood and the shed....you fellow wood burners will understand my dilemma more!

Questions welcome, comments appreciated. Keep in mind we are on a budget right now and every buck counts in the short term. We're expecting a baby later this fall too so that comes in to the equation as well. Here's a pic of the current set up with the propane space heater.

 

[DAKSY]

Hey guys...I've been absent for a long time...what can I say...life happens!

So my wife and I just bought a 1430 sq.ft. house (one floor - open concept) that has electric heat but also was designed for a woodstove with a nice central brick hearth and masonry chimney. At some point this was converted to propane with a radiant style space heater. I think its a Cozy model, about 40,000b btu's. I've been trying to decide whether to keep the propane or install my woodstove. I'll try and lay out the details, because some of these details are important to note, and then hopefully some of you will have suggestions:

- I can buy the 2002 model PE Super 27 I've been using from our landlord for a whopping good deal - I used it for the last three years and it's amazing, mint shape and rated at 72,000 btu's
- I'd have to get a stainless steel liner installed in the chimney as the aluminum liner for the propane space heater won't suffice
- I have the option right now to get the 1000 gallon propane tank removed from the property by the current owners and therefore don't have to pay for the fuel as part of the house deal - it's about 1/3 full and we've calculated the cost to buy the existing fuel and actually it's close to the same cost as buying the used woodstove and getting a new liner installed
- all the propane lines and regulators would stay in the house and the space heater too, just the rental tank and fuel gets removed so the current owners get credit and close their account. I could always get a new rental tank down the road if we wanted to hook up the space heater somewhere else, like the crawlspace for example. or looking long term we could even do a propane furnace install in the crawlspace as it has about 5 feet of headroom...propane tankless hot water heater, kitchen stove, etc.,
- I have 10 face cords of seasoned wood ready for this winter, and a woodshed that I could disassemble and also take, these are bonuses but also significantly add to the hassle of moving
- the hearth base in the new house would need to be extended or have something put down in front of it to get the 18 inches needed in front of the Super 27 door - I'm about 5inches shy. this is not a huge deal in the long run as we want to replace the carpet with laminate wood and remove the floor hearth bricks to make a more clean and modern look. a simple tile hearth pad could be installed then but for the short term I'd have to screw cement board down in front of the semi circle brick or rip out some carpet and install some tiles right away.

So basically it comes down to cash flow right now, which we are tight on. The propane is turn key, clean and reliable. We walk in and it works, and offsets the cost of electric which is the whole point of this. However, the current owners don't know how it works in winter b/c they go to Florida. So, we have no idea how efficient it is or how much fuel it uses. Will I have to phone the supply company mid winter b/c the space heater is a hog on fuel??? On the other hand, the wood and wood shed are a pain to move, it's messy and will take some time to get everything installed to be up and running. But when it's done I know I have a reliable heat source and already know what the stove is capable of. I also have a saw, lots of wood gear and access to land to harvest from so still seems like the cheapest option of all, but the most work or course...especially now. People I've asked who don't burn wood think i'm nuts to consider moving my wood and the shed....you fellow wood burners will understand my dilemma more!

Questions welcome, comments appreciated. Keep in mind we are on a budget right now and every buck counts in the short term. We're expecting a baby later this fall too so that comes in to the equation as well. Here's a pic of the current set up with the propane space heater.

Couple questions come to mind...
Will the PE fit within the confines of the raised brick hearth?
Is the brick a facade in front of a studwall or is it the outside wall of the house?
Is the external chimney tall enough to meet the PE minimum specified chimney height?

 

[Waulie]

If you can just plug and play the PE (with a new liner of course), that is absolutely the way to go, IMO.

You should definitely look up the price for propane in your area. I bet it ranges from really expensive to crazy expensive. Depending on local rates, running that heater could easily cost more than running the electric heat, especially given the efficiency drop off going from electric to propane. There are calculators online if you want to google and get an idea.

I understand money is tight, but if you can get all that wood moved, you'll make back the liner expense very, very quickly.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

Couple questions come to mind...
Will the PE fit within the confines of the raised brick hearth?
Is the brick a facade in front of a studwall or is it the outside wall of the house?
Is the external chimney tall enough to meet the PE minimum specified chimney height?

Thanks!

PE will fit OK but brick hearth as mentioned above does not come out from wall far enough to get me 18 inches in front of the stove door. I mentioned fixes for this above.
Brick is mostly over stud wall inside house. Backs onto master bedroom on the other side.
External chimney is tall enough and I have enough height. Chimney appears to be in great shape.

 

[begreen]

I get a chuckle out of somone asking a bunch of firebugs and wood nuts if you are nuts. Nahhh. If you like wood heat, the propane heater is not going to be a great substitute. Wood heat is better and there is no comparison with the light show. You know the riff, yes it will be a hassle, but good exercise. Go for it.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

I get a chuckle out of somone asking a bunch of firebugs and wood nuts if you are nuts. Nahhh. If you like wood heat, the propane heater is not going to be a great substitute. Wood heat is better and there is no comparison with the light show. You know the riff, yes it will be a hassle, but good exercise. Go for it.

I needed to hear this, thank you. I guess it can be as simple as that - if you like wood heat and all that comes with it, then of course it's worth it! I'm just getting so much grief from people saying "your going to do WHAT?"

 

[Nick Mystic]

As far as money is concerned it sounds like you will be better off going with the wood stove since you already have five cords of seasoned wood ready to go and also have access to future wood that will only cost you your effort. Our 2400 sq. ft. home has a central heating system that runs on propane and is extremely efficient. It does a fantastic job of heating the house up and very quickly. However, we heat exclusively with wood since we live on eleven acres that is mostly mixed hardwoods. Propane here in western NC is pretty expensive and we'd probably be spending an extra $1000 a year or more if we heated that way.

As for moving your firewood, it would depend on how far you are moving it, if you have access to a truck, if you have so me friends who would provide some help, etc. When we moved about 15 miles away from our old home we took all our fire wood using a minivan. It took a number of trips, but was definitely less work than cutting and splitting new wood. Since you say money is particularly tight right now it sounds like the wood stove option is going to be cheaper. Of course, a lot depends on the answers to the questions that DAKSY posed. If you have to do major chimney work or have clearance problems with the stove and back wall, then you would need to factor that in.

 

[Oregon aloha]

On the energy saving side. I have a rambler the same size you have. We had a forced air propane furnace and hot water tank when we bought the house 17 years ago (the house was 1000 sq. ft. ). First year we used 800 gallons of propane with a small wood insert. I fully insulated and replace all the windows and added the additional 440 sq. ft. That year we used 600 gallons. Added a larger wood stove insert and dropped my propane usage to about 400 gallons the third year. 6 years ago I replace the hot water tank with a tankless and now use 225 gallons a year including a propane range.

If you install a propane tankless water heater and wood heat you will save a lot in the long run. Propane I feel is expensive here @ $2.25 a gallon @ its lowest price with my own tank. Most pay about $3.00 a gallon if they rent tanks here. Do you know how much a gallon propane is in your area? My friends with electric heat spend way more then I ever did for electric heat, so take that into consideration.

 

[begreen]

Pick a weekend day, invite several friends and make a moving party out of it.

 

[SteveKG]

I am biased toward wood heat, as many here are, if not most. We heat 100% with wood stoves, but we do have a propane tank for countertop cooking and a back-up space heater. We haven't used the space heater in 25 years, but we keep it "just in case."

I am allergic to such overhead as renting propane tanks. I bought a used one, 500-gallon size, which needed some work. I had to paint it and replace a couple of valves. I paid $240 for the tank, probably $75 for the paint and parts. It is ours and costs zero to sit out there. If the propane providers in your area will fill a privately-owned tank [three companies here will], you might consider getting rid of the 1000-gal. job for now, then keep an eye out for one to buy. You would not need a 1000 tank if you are gonna be primarily using wood.

Then, you keep an eye on gas prices. Propane here is currently 1.75/gal., or was when I bought some last month. In the winter, here, prices skyrocket until the following spring. I only have to fill my tank every nine or ten years, so I can easily watch for the price I want. A year ago, a propane co. called me and offered me a "deal" for, I don't remember exactlty, but it was over $3 a gallon. I waited and watched and got it for nearly one-half that price.

Another consideration is that here in my area various gas providers will only fill their own, leased-out tanks. That means one cannot shop around for the best going propane prices. Owning my own, I have at least three companies to which I can turn.

If it were me, I'd have the 1000 gal. tank pulled out, get the price reduction on the house for the remaining gas, then you can get the wood stove installed and watch for a used propane tank if you decide you want or need the back-up. Even if you only "break even" after the stove installation [and you might do better than break even], you can eventually own your tank and never have rental costs for it.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

On the energy saving side. I have a rambler the same size you have. We had a forced air propane furnace and hot water tank when we bought the house 17 years ago (the house was 1000 sq. ft. ). First year we used 800 gallons of propane with a small wood insert. I fully insulated and replace all the windows and added the additional 440 sq. ft. That year we used 600 gallons. Added a larger wood stove insert and dropped my propane usage to about 400 gallons the third year. 6 years ago I replace the hot water tank with a tankless and now use 225 gallons a year including a propane range.

If you install a propane tankless water heater and wood heat you will save a lot in the long run. Propane I feel is expensive here @ $2.25 a gallon @ its lowest price with my own tank. Most pay about $3.00 a gallon if they rent tanks here. Do you know how much a gallon propane is in your area? My friends with electric heat spend way more then I ever did for electric heat, so take that into consideration.

Thanks for the info - interesting! What is a "rambler" though? Is that a propane heater or something? Propane prices here are around 0.75 cents per litre so that's around $2.85 per US gallons.

 

[begreen]

.75/liter = a bit less than $3.00/gallon. You have expensive propane. A rambler is a single story house, usually ranch style. Living room on one end, kitchen in the middle and bedroom off a hallway on the other end.

 

[Waulie]

Thanks for the info - interesting! What is a "rambler" though? Is that a propane heater or something? Propane prices here are around 0.75 cents per litre so that's around $2.85 per US gallons.

That's close to what it is here. Now, check your electric rates. Then, run the numbers. You might just find that the heater will not "offset the cost of electric" at all. It might actually cost more than your electric heat, which might make your decision even easier.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

A rambler is the house style. Some call it a ranch style or a one story home .

Thanks, and thanks BeGreen too!

 

[Oregon aloha]

Now, check your electric rates. Then, run the numbers. You might just find that the heater will not "offset the cost of electric" at all. It might actually cost more than your electric heat, which might make your decision even easier.

You also have to adjust to electric heat. If you are used to wood or gas heat you may not like it.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

That's close to what it is here. Now, check your electric rates. Then, run the numbers. You might just find that the heater will not "offset the cost of electric" at all. It might actually cost more than your electric heat, which might make your decision even easier.

OK double checked electric prices per kWh and we have time of use hydro - on peak, mid peak, and off peak. On peak is 12.4 cents per kWh, mid is 10.4 cent per kWh, and off peak is 6.7 cents per kWh hour. These are CDN prices of course. I don't really know how to calculate that into what electric heat would cost....

 

[MishMouse]

Since you live in a colder climate I would say wood stove. The propain will drain you dry if the house isn't very efficient. I use it an alternative and every time the furnace kicks on I can see my money disappearing. Your current wood supply is money in the bank.

One question, will you still be able to obtain wood in the future?

 

[TK-421]

Every situation is different so you can't base it off my experience.

2000 sq ft home with one great room with 13' vaulted ceiling. The house is shaped like a T. 2x4 walls, crawl space with dirt floor. Northeastern CT. Forced hot air goodman furnace.

When we first moved in we were spending over 400/mo on propane and the house was cold. We quickly got the stove hooked back up.(it was disconnected because I was renovating). Last winter we didn't use enough propane and we got wacked for a service charge. I had them pull the two 100gl tanks and I'm buying 1, 120gl tank. The not reason for us to keep the propane is for a backup. We set the thermostat for 62 and it kicks on when its really cold and runs from 4-6am until we get the woodstove back up to temp. With the new larger stove this year I don't see us using 100gl of propane. The only other backup that's nice is if we all got sick and just couldn't load the stove. A rare occasion but its nice to have options.

We now spend around $800/yr on wood. $160/cd x 5 cord. Or house is now hot the way my wife likes it and I spend the winter in shorts and a Tshirt. The house is typically around 74. Sometimes we see 84. LOL we've been using an old 1970s Vermont castings resolute. We knew we knew it was too small for our house and that we were over firing it. It cracked is showing its age and is getting replaced next week with out new jotul carrabasset.

Its certainly more work to feed a woodstove but we both grew up using wood and love the look of the if crackling. Plus the wood heat is just warmer than the propane ever was.

Good luck in your quest. And do yourself a favor. Research before you jump into anything. You'll save money in the long run.

 

[Waulie]

OK double checked electric prices per kWh and we have time of use hydro - on peak, mid peak, and off peak. On peak is 12.4 cents per kWh, mid is 10.4 cent per kWh, and off peak is 6.7 cents per kWh hour. These are CDN prices of course. I don't really know how to calculate that into what electric heat would cost....

It's pretty easy to calulate (especially with an online calculator ). To be accurate, you need to know the efficiency of the heater.

I played with this calculator:

http://www.maxmcarter.com/fuels/fuelscalc.html

If I use 80% efficiency for your heater (which is probably real generous), then your heater costs more to make heat than electric even at your peak electric rate! Now, there could be some added electric costs beyond the "rate", like misc. fees etc. that increase your actual electric costs. But regardless, I'd say it's not going to make much economic sense to run that heater much.

 

[TK-421]

A huge consideration is your wife and baby on the way. Wood is the cheapest route and looks and feels great. IMHO, there's nothing cozier on a cold winter night.

BUT.....make sure your wife is prepared to load it each day and all day. My wife is a trooper. Our woodpile is about 50' from the back door and another 50' to the stove. We now have a woodshed right off the porch so its easier.

Just make sure you are both understanding the work involved and who's going to be doing a lot of the starting and loading.

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

It's pretty easy to calulate (especially with an online calculator ). To be accurate, you need to know the efficiency of the heater.

I played with this calculator:

http://www.maxmcarter.com/fuels/fuelscalc.html

If I use 80% efficiency for your heater (which is probably real generous), then your heater costs more to make heat than electric even at your peak electric rate! Now, there could be some added electric costs beyond the "rate", like misc. fees etc. that increase your actual electric costs. But regardless, I'd say it's not going to make much economic sense to run that heater much.

Generous for sure...probably more like 65%, maybe 70%. even still, its cheaper using electric with the 80% figure and on peak prices! crazy! there are added costs of course, delivery rate and taxes, but I get that on propane too...wow....great calculator. thanks a lot!

 

[Manitoulin Maples]

A huge consideration is your wife and baby on the way. Wood is the cheapest route and looks and feels great. IMHO, there's nothing cozier on a cold winter night.

BUT.....make sure your wife is prepared to load it each day and all day. My wife is a trooper. Our woodpile is about 50' from the back door and another 50' to the stove. We now have a woodshed right off the porch so its easier.

Just make sure you are both understanding the work involved and who's going to be doing a lot of the starting and loading.

Thanks for the tips! Yes my wife is awesome...we've been burning wood for the past three years and very content with the process. Good luck with the Carrabasset - those look like awesome stoves!

 

[Waulie]

Generous for sure...probably more like 65%, maybe 70%. even still, its cheaper using electric with the 80% figure and on peak prices! crazy! there are added costs of course, delivery rate and taxes, but I get that on propane too...wow....great calculator. thanks a lot!

No problem! I actually have the same situation here. I have a 90+ efficient propane furnace that I don't use because of the wood stove. I was looking at adding a heater to the basement which doesn't get heat from the wood stove. I started looking at propane heaters since I'm already set up for propane. Then, I figured out that electric heat is actually cheaper for me to make. Not to mention, electric heaters are really cheap!

My prices are real similiar to yours for both propane and electric.

 

[bag of hammers]

OK double checked electric prices per kWh and we have time of use hydro - on peak, mid peak, and off peak. On peak is 12.4 cents per kWh, mid is 10.4 cent per kWh, and off peak is 6.7 cents per kWh hour. These are CDN prices of course. I don't really know how to calculate that into what electric heat would cost....

MM - be careful - my bill (approx 60 km north of SSM) for electric is mostly taxes, delivery charges, etc. Actual power use one year was @ $11 or $12 and the bill was over $300. Not kidding. Last year, between $500 and $600 useage, total bill over $1500. 2/3 of my bill is fluff. That is seasonal rates (not my permanent residence) - if this is your permanent residence on the island you might not get stung so bad, but you will likely pay a LOT more than the posted per kWh rate when the bill comes in. Check with some of your neighbors, if they don't mind showing you their bills. That's the best way to get an idea.

FWIW I will get a year out of a 250 gal propane tank running only a Rinnai direct vent furnace (82 % efficiency) as my no-freeze during the winter, the wood stove runs when we're there on weekends. They dump 1000 litres in and I pay @ $700 (slight discount last year).

My 2c - you got firewood cut and stacked already? Already a burner? Lots of land with lots of trees? Existing hearth? Man, rip that propane unit out, get the PE in there, and be happy happy happy. Use the electric for no-freeze when you gotta be away. Maybe consider other propane appliances if you feel the urge later on, be content that you have the lines, etc to get set up again should you decide to go that route. Congrats on the new home and the soon-to-be new baby, awesome.....

 

[MishMouse]

Another thing to consider living in a colder climate especially if you have little ones, power outages.
Get a major storm that knocks out your power then temps dips well below zero as it typically does after a storm.
With Electric or Propane without power you have no heat.
With a wood stove, you would have no worries.