My 50 acres

[Henz]

Ok, I have contacted a local logger that I know and he is always fair. I am considering having my 50 acres logged heavily of the hemlock and white pine. I have decent hardwood undergrowth that just cant seem to grow due to the large conifers shading them so much. what does everyone think?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Sounds like a plan.

 

[savageactor7]

Excellent idea...just don't be shocked at the low price of pulp woods. The trails the skidder makes will facilitate you managing your wood lot too...all around excellent idea.

 

[Henz]

yeah I know. basically this logger will pay me "x" amount of dollars up front for what he thinks he can get for them, then he wont cut it until the market gets better so that we both make out better.

 

[savageactor7]

^ sounds like a good plan. My neighbor does that too and he says the price is about half it was from last year. For awhile some mills were even paying a fuel fee...not the whole amount but something extra if you came 30+ miles away.

 

[mikeathens]

I don't know about NY, but Ohio has "service foresters" to work with private woodlot owners. They are DNR employees and don't charge a fee for their services.

If NY has this sort of thing, maybe check into it...they work for you and will let you know what your wood is worth, what types of erosion control are practical, which trees are best to remove and which are best to leave - so that you're not getting ripped off (too much) from your logger.

 

[Henz]

well basically I want as much of the hemlock gone as possible and all of the big white pines. They are nothing but trash trees for me.

 

[RedRanger]

well basically I want as much of the hemlock gone as possible and all of the big white pines. They are nothing but trash trees for me.

Don`t be so sure about the trash part. I always thought that hardwood took longer to grow. And the way prices are going up for firewood,you might want to consider putting aside one-quarter of that 50 acres to be sure you always have something affordable to burn. I truly believe that in the longer scheme of things you will find that pine and hemlock looking not too bad at all.

Think about it twice or thrice (ya can`t put it back once it`s logged off). Don`t take this reply the wrong way,I just would hate to see you regret something like this a few years down the road.

 

[Jags]

If you have all of those trees logged off, will that still leave you a supply of adult trees to harvest firewood from? If so, go for it. If not, I agree that you may want to leave a corner for your firewood harvest.

 

[kenny chaos]

If you remove too much of the canopy all at once, you'll have alot more growing than just hardwood undergrowth which could choke out your future hardwoods. Definitely talk to your local state forester first! If you try to change your perspective, practicing silviculture on your own stand can be an extremely rewarding and profitable hobby. Lots of little portable sawmill guys around who would love to turn your trash into valuable lumber. Doing it yourself may not be your thing for whatever reasons but I'd recommend talking to the state forester first. Only he can tell you whether it's a good move or not. Fifty acres well managed could be a yearly money maker or maybe every five or ten years. Get a good plan. Most property owners seem to hire a logger only for quick financial gain. The woods seldom recover.
Lots of luck-
Kenny
ps; there are a few sustainable loggers around who will set up long term goals (my personal favorite). This ensures a woods which will be there for them (the logger) in the future also!

 

[billb3]

I have 22 acres that was strip mined for gravel. Half of 40 acres that was dug out.
No dirt put back. Just abandoned bare gravel in 1965 about five feet or so above perc level..
It's been interesting watching the forest return all on its own. Different trees in different areas. Pine, oak, cherry , maple, birch, holly, hemlock, you name it, whatever the wind and birds have allowed.
First generation growth and now second. Some pines have 40 growth rings. Different trees and animals have come and gone. No different than if a tornado had ripped it up. Nature takes care of itself rather well.
I do some thinning where it has done too well. (drought years take care of that naturally, too)
The cherry from that strip mine is filling my wood pile. So are a few wild apple trees.
I planted some douglas fir in 1968. that was a waste of time. The local white pine crowded it out long ago. Just a few woodpecker infested poles left of that project.

 

[BotetourtSteve]

Wow, I cringe hearing hemlocks referred to as "trash trees." I have always loved the mountain hemlocks of the Blue Ridge in VA and NC. They just go together with cold mountain streams full of native trout. Sadly, little SOBs called Woolly Adelgids (an aphid-like little critter) are zapping ours at a frightening pace. I have been doing some hiking and hunting way back in the mountains and it is just staggering how many are biting the dust. And like our friend in NM, the pine bark beetles have nuked most all of the giant pines as well. Throw in the damage to oaks and other hardwoods from the gypsy moths, and there are some areas in the Blue Ridge that literally look like they have been sprayed with agent orange. Very sad.

 

[brooktrout]

I absolutely love hemlock. I use it rough cut for board and batten siding on my house, and did a bedroom floor with it- wide plank style. Hemlock's grain is beautiful.

 

[RonB]

Hi Adirondac,

My best advice for you is to hire a professional forester to be your agent/advisor in this endeavor. We had a windstorm come through (100mph plus) and level a lot of my forest. My forester put me in touch with an honest tree harvesting company. The agent was paid a percentage of the harvest (10%). He measured the harvest and monitored the progress. The more I made the more he made. He would help you select trees to harvest and help you with an overall woodlot plan. Don't kick on the money that it will cost you. You will lose so much more without him. A man usually only gets about one harvest of his trees in his life time. Don't mess it up by learning all the lessons the hard way from a dishonest logger.

 

[jebatty]

Without knowing more, sounds like your logger might be "high grading" you, that is, taking the valuable trees and leaving you with trash. The logger argues, "If we just take some of those big ones so the little ones underneath can grow, you will have a better woods." That argument normally is bunk, unless planned with a forester and practicing good silviculture. If the understory is not good now, it likely always will be bad. Generally, what grows well now on a site is pretty good evidence as to what should grow on that sight in the future, from a forestry perspective. But a local consulting or DNR forester will know more about your location.

I find it hard to believe large white pines are junk and have no value where you live. White pine makes beautiful furniture, table tops, trim and architectural lumber. From one our trees we got 18" wide boards, which I put down as flooring in our bedroom, using square head nails. Not a single board has split, warped, etc. When people see this, they ask in amazement, "where did you get that flooring?" Local carpenters buy white pine from me for their construction work. I also supply a local cabinet shop based on its needs.

Nine years ago a big white pine broke off in a windstorm about 36' feet up. That tree provided the 18" boards I mentioned. All told, we got over 1000 board feet of lumber from a single tree, and white pine lumber, rough sawn, I can sell usually for $1.25 - $1.40 a board foot -- that's more than $1,225.00 for lumber from a SINGLE tree. What's your logger paying you for the white pine he wants to take? Obviously, you won't get "finished" prices, but take note of the value of white pine.

Some of the large branches make very interesting character lumber, and if not, all of the branches 2" and larger make great firewood. They all end up in the gasifier that heats my shop.

White pine is a classic tree from the northeast extending west to Minnesota. It is the tree that built many of the homes and other buildings in huge parts of the east and into Nebraska and Kansas. It grows fast, typically lives up to about 350 years, but is subject to wind and storm damage, and blister rust fungus is tough on white pine.

Don't proceed to cut the white pine before you educate yourself on its present and future value.

 

[Henz]

Jim, that pic of the white pines, I have hundreds of that size and some much bigger in dia. The basil layer of my land (undergrowth) is predominatly hard/soft maples, red oak and beech. I am not cutting any hardwoods at all since that is my future firewood for sure. Plus I plan on creating a small sugarbush for maple syrup production for my own needs.

 

[gpcollen1]

Hey Adk - I think some responded as if you have no clue. No big deal. Some may not realize how large some of the White pines are in the northeast. I have hiked through some serious stands of white (and red) pine in the Adk Range. And those do not even come close to what I have seen in the 5 Ponds Wilderness Area - monsters I tell you.

If your canopy is getting thick with the White Pine, definitely need to thin those out. A few here and there do not really inhibit understory growth as the foliage is usually above the tree line - of everything else. Those Hemlocks definitely chew up a lot of sunlight from top to bottom. It is those that i would be most anxious to get out of there.

Hemlock is indeed a beautiful tree, especially when they get large. Roaming through large stands of Chestnut Oak and Hemlock is something I will always enjoy. But not necessarily when my long term plan is for something else.

 

[JustWood]

An awfull lot of armchair forester advice here. AW you're doing the right thing. You don't need a forester for softwood removal it wood be a waste of your money. Just get it ALL out of your woods .Trees to small to be pulp just cut them and leave them lay. I wood check the loggers references through local mills and other landowners he has dealt with before signing any contract and if there is something in the contract you don't quite understand ,pay your lawyer $100 to look it over. At best you will recieve no more than $150/MBF for your Hemlock and Pine depending on local markets. Don't know pulp prices in your area. As far as having some of it sawed for building material, better check local building codes ,many towns don't allow use of rough cut unless kiln dried . Once your hardwoods are established and the slash from the softwood harvest is rotted down or cut for firewood then get a free assesment from a state forester. He will let you know what else to remove for optimun growth of valuable hardwoods. If I was closer I wood come over and spend a few hours in the woods with you.

 

[Henz]

Interestingly, I have spoken to a few NYS DEC foresters who have basically siad just that. remove all hemlock and the majority of the largest white pines

 

[Henz]

Well, here is an update for everyone. I had my logger walk my property with me yesterday. Needless to say, he was impressed with the white pine and the hemlock. Told me conservatively, I have around 200-250mbf of white pine, some loads of pine pulp and some loads of hemlock pulp. He said if I wanted a lump sum right now, he would write me a check for $20k. If I wanted to do mill slips, whcih I would make alittle more, we could do it that way. Right now he has to truck almost to the VT boarder, so he could only offer me 40%. However, he had jsut received a call from a local mill that might be taking logs again. If they are, he would do a 50% take with me, plus giving me a copy of each mill slip. I told him, start next week! He told me he is being real conservative, and I hould expect closer to $30k

 

[jebatty]

I know your excited to move ahead, but a visit with an independent consulting forester may be well worth your while. On average, and putting a cut out to bids, you will do better to much better than working directly with a logger.

Keep in mind that the logger is highly motivated by a self interest to keep what he pays you as low as possible and receive as much as possible at the mill. A consulting forester is motivated, in addition to professional ethics, to get you the most, as usually the forester is paid by commission on the price you receive. Plus, there may be other good advice on cull trees, save trees, etc., as well as reforestation, damage, insurance, handling of waste, etc. In addition, in general (your area may be an exception) the market is very poor now, and it might be better to wait a year or two before cutting. You may get a much better price than now. But there are risks in whatever choice you make.

 

[Henz]

Well, seeign as how the money will be used to pay off all of my debt, the interest alone over another year that I would have to pay out is a considerable amount. I did have a forester walk it. He told me to remove all of the largest pine and all of the hemlock.

 

[Ncountry]

Even though pine is worth $1/square foot and up retail, it does not reflect the value to a logger or property owner. In this part of NY a logger would be lucky to average 35 cents/square foot at a mill. Same for hardwood. Try finding even a low grade hardwood at a store for under $2/foot. Yet a logger would be doing well to average 50-60 cents across the board for hardwood. I would 2nd everybodys opinion on a forester as well. A logger with an excellent reputation (check references and past jobs) and years of experience can probably do the foresters job just as well though.

 

[Henz]

thats exactaly what this guy is. My family has used him before. He has a big, fast operation and he is still in business for a reason. Graple skidders etc

 

[JustWood]

Go with the mill slip option but put in the contract that you will recieve no less than $20,000 when done. No one can gaurantee the inner quality of the timber untill it is on the ground. Get $10,000 up front as good will $. If you have an estimate of 250/mbf on 50 acres your doing the right thing by getting this stuff out. I'll bet you don't have 20% sunlight hitting the ground under that canopy.