Napoleon 1400pl / stove pipe damper

[gnedinok]

Hey all, I recently installed a new Napoleon 1400pl. my question is can you / should you use a damper in the stove pipe. I have heated with wood for 25+ years. Last stove was a 1980's ($800.00) Country Flame. The theory I am accustomed to has always been, control the air going in, balanced with the air going out, key word here is BALANCE. With the new stove (dangit, I bought the thing on line from a not so reputable dealer and they are NO help) once I get the thing up to temp it wants to run away ... to some degree, without enough control and we are left with little coals/heat after an overnight fire. Seems to me that if I install a damper in the pipe I can obtain better control and maintain heat in the stove rather that it going up the stack. I purchased a Rutland stove thermometer & the difference in the stove temp and pipe temp (@ 6" above stove) is considerable. Burn zone on the stove is not obtained on the pipe. I have been told the the manufacturer does not recommend a damper in the pipe. Any suggestions here. Thanks, Greg in Oklahoma

 

[firefighterjake]

Hey all, I recently installed a new Napoleon 1400pl. my question is can you / should you use a damper in the stove pipe. I have heated with wood for 25+ years. Last stove was a 1980's ($800.00) Country Flame. The theory I am accustomed to has always been, control the air going in, balanced with the air going out, key word here is BALANCE. With the new stove (dangit, I bought the thing on line from a not so reputable dealer and they are NO help) once I get the thing up to temp it wants to run away ... to some degree, without enough control and we are left with little coals/heat after an overnight fire. Seems to me that if I install a damper in the pipe I can obtain better control and maintain heat in the stove rather that it going up the stack. I purchased a Rutland stove thermometer & the difference in the stove temp and pipe temp (@ 6" above stove) is considerable. Burn zone on the stove is not obtained on the pipe. I have been told the the manufacturer does not recommend a damper in the pipe. Any suggestions here. Thanks, Greg in Oklahoma

To answer your first question . . . yes you can put in a stove pipe damper and some folks do . . . but generally these are folks who have pretty tall chimneys with excessive drafts . . . a few other folks have put them in as a "just in case of an emergency" action.

Personally, unless someone has an excessive draft I would not bother -- most stoves can be controlled perfectly fine with the air control on the stove . . . well that and a bit of knowledge, proper maintainance and knowing how to run the stove with the right fuel. I'm at Year 3 and have only had one time when I thought a damper could be useful . . . and truthfully if I had been a bit smarter I could have controlled the stove even then with a simple piece of aluminum foil.

The problem with a stove pipe damper is that by shutting the air flow too much you can cool down the chimney . . . and of course a cool chimney can easily translate into a chimney full of creosote.

I guess my real question . . . well questions . . . are a) how tall is your chimney, b) what type of chimney do you have (construction and size) and c) (and this is the big one) . . . how are you running the stove currently?

I mean no disrespect here, but it seems as though a lot of folks who come along and start using a new stove sometimes do not understand that first of all with a secondary burner running well seasoned wood, using the proper air control and getting the stove to the right temp you will have what looks to be like an out of control fire at the top 1/3 of the stove -- what I call the Bowels of Hell . . . when the secondary combustion starts to occur you will swear a portal to Hell has opened up and any minute Lucifer will be climbing out of your stove.

The other thing with folks new to burning is that some equate lots of flames on the wood and leave the air control open all the way . . . not realizing that you are allowing lots of air to feed the fire . . . the result is a faster burn as much of the heat goes up the stack and you lose out on most, if not all, of the secondary burning which is what gives you an efficient and long burn.

 

[gnedinok]

Thanks Jake, as stated , been burning wood for over 25 years, the only thing new for me here is the hi-tech stove. Inside is non-snap together high quality pipe w/ 8' double wall insulated stainless through the attic and well above the roof. I guess I just did not get the part in the owners manual about the secondary burn. As for how I am running the stove: With a good hot bed of coals and wood loaded to the top of the door and allowing the fire to get going fairly well it just seemed as though even with the air control shut down completely the secondary burn made it appear that I could not slow it down the way I was used to. This is a new beast to me so I will throw the old school stuff out. Although I may install the damper anyway ... Thanks for the info. Greg

 

[firefighterjake]

Thanks Jake, as stated , been burning wood for over 25 years, the only thing new for me here is the hi-tech stove. Inside is non-snap together high quality pipe w/ 8' double wall insulated stainless through the attic and well above the roof. I guess I just did not get the part in the owners manual about the secondary burn. As for how I am running the stove: With a good hot bed of coals and wood loaded to the top of the door and allowing the fire to get going fairly well it just seemed as though even with the air control shut down completely the secondary burn made it appear that I could not slow it down the way I was used to. This is a new beast to me so I will throw the old school stuff out. Although I may install the damper anyway ... Thanks for the info. Greg

Running the EPA stoves takes a bit of getting used to . . . and some old habits have to be re-learned . . . and when you first see the secondary burn I think it's normal for most folks to start evacuating the home and call 911 . . . well maybe not to that extreme . . . it's just when you see that fire you have one of those "What have I done. I'm going to burn down the home. My wife will kill me" moments.

The funny thing is . . . these stoves are actually pretty basic and simple . . . for the most part . . . they're a metal or stone box with a fire inside along with a few pipes to bring in air or move out air . . . the secret of course is how folks figured out how to manipulate that air to create an air wash system to keep the glass relatively clean and collect the smoke in the air and bring it to a high enough temp to reburn it to get more heat . . . and clean up the emissions.

8 inch double wall . . . is your stove designed to burn with the 8 inch? Most stoves these days seem to use the smaller 6 inch stove pipe.

Sounds like you're running the stove right . . . loading it up, bringing it up to temp and then you start to close the air down (most folks get to the 1/4 mark or fully closed) . . . and then the secondaries kick in and the magic begins . . . as long as the temps are good on the stove and in the stove pipe just let it cruise . . . the secret is to experiment a bit with smaller loads vs. just loading it to the gills with a bunch of well seasoned small splits or kiln dried lumber and then touching it off and hoping for the best.

 

[begreen]

Greetings gnedinok. We are getting a lot of people this year that are having to relearn burning. The most important thing I can tell you is the new stove will not run like the old stove. The old stove allowed you to load and smolder, by the choke (flue damper) and smoke method. That may have provided a predictable term of heating, but at the expense of a ton of smoke heading up and out of the flue. The new stove does it's best to prevent this from happening. And that is a really good thing. It's partly why the stove is more efficient. It is designed to burn off that smoke and turn it into heat. The new stove will take a relearning of how to burn in order to get the best out of the stove.

As you have noticed, your stove is a ready and willing heater. It will do the job, but it will take changing old burning habits to get the best performance from it. Sit down and read up here on how to get the best burn out of the stove and you will be burning like a pro again in a short while. If you don't have a stove thermometer it would be good to pick one up. That will help you see the stages of the burn.

 

[gnedinok]

Jake, that was 8 foot of double wall from ceiling up & 7' single wall inside, all 6 inch ha ha ha. Dang hash marks are hard to see ...huh
BeGreen, you are absolutely right here & I love learning new stuff ... every day. I've read the owners manual through several times and picked up a Rutland thermometer yesterday(neat, I Also love new toys).
I will take your advise and have a look around here, should prove interesting. Thanks again, Greg in OK

 

[begreen]

That's the right attitude Greg, you're very welcome.

Most of the posts of this nature boil down learning how to load and run the stove. The manual recommends loading the stove N/S (wood parallel to the sides). Start the fire with just a couple medium-size splits about 2" apart with balled up newpaper or fire starter chunks in between them. Crisscross some kindling over the gap between the splits. Start the fire with air wide open. Once it has the splits burning very well, add more wood, still parallel to the sides, but not so tight as to dramatically set back the fire. Leave the air open until this new wood ignites and is burning well. Then start moving the air control closed in increments. Try 50% or more, just until the fire slows down. Then let is burn.

The fire will intensify and there is a good chance secondary combustion will start (flames coming from the top of the stove as the wood gases ignite). Continue to close off the air over time (depends on the wood and draft) until it is as close to closed off as possible. The stove top temp will be increasing all along. You can't cut off the air supply completely on an EPA stove. It is going to continue feeding at least the secondaries and a little airwash air, even with the air control closed. This will lead to a peak temp burn when the outgassing of the wood is at the highest. Then temps will decline on a gentle glide path.

As those gases ignite into a firey bowels of hell, a lot of heat is going to be released as you have noticed. Instead, when ready to refuel, the stove temp should be down to about 3-400. If there are a lot of coals, rake them forward to the front center of the stove, put a single small split on top of them, then open up the air control at least halfway. This will help burn down the coals and still provide good heat. When the coals are reasonably burned down, rake them to the middle center and reload. If you don't do this step and put the fresh charge of wood on the hot coal bed, the wood is going to outgas dramatically.

PS: can you add the new stove to your signature line and your OK location to your profile?