Need experience advice!

[Eastcoast]

I tried for the last while to get air out of my system but just can't do it, my heat is still working but I can hear air going through my circulating pump sometimes and water gushing in my rads sometimes when the zone calls for heat. So I've uploaded a few pictures of my system and drew up a diagram to see if someone can see any problems on my system maybe the air vents have to be moved or another one added or something. I am willing to change anything in the system to make it better! Thanks

 

[salecker]

You need to get a magic bucket hooked in your system somewhere and deal with the air.
You may need to add some hose barbs to do it ,but it works.
I did explain it in your help with bleeding post

 

[Eastcoast]

So by doing the magic bucket like you say would that be better than adding a spirovent somewhere in the system?

 

[maple1]

I had a heck of a time picking out an air vent in the pictures. But is that it I see poking thru that hole in the ceiling? Only the one? And you unscrewed the cap off it? Is there also a scoop there?

I still dont think I would bother chasing it if it is heating ok.

 

[Eastcoast]

Ya that's the one sticking in the ceiling not sure why they picked that spot for it! And there is that one and one right above the blow off valve on the oil boiler, they are both brand new I replaced the old ones and I unscrewed the cap 1 full turn after the water was back in! And I agree with you I shouldn't be messing with it cause it's working and heating but sometimes it wakes me up at night when the zone calls for heat I can hear the water running through the rad and it creeks or something a bit.

 

[Eastcoast]

Oh and no there is no scoop

 

[Eastcoast]

Also I have an expansion tank by my wood boiler and a bladder style expansion tank by my oil boiler and there is no air vent on either one and I see some pictures on here where the expansion tank has a auto air vent on top should I have one there to?

 

[maple1]

Oh and no there is no scoop

A scoop would likely help. If your water flow is up there, the air bubbles might go right past the vent.

 

[Eastcoast]

I think your right because the air vent is not to far from the circulator pump and I can hear a bit of air running through the pump so it must be going to fast in the pipe for the air vent to take care of it all.. so I'll buy a air scoop and I should be able to put it in my 1 inch line where my air vent is now and just put the air vent on top of the scoop right? And also does a plug come with he scoop for the bottom hole cause I won't be hooking it up to an expansion tank?

 

[Eureka]

Those little air vents are pretty worthless in my opinion; worse without the air scoop

 

[Eastcoast]

Eureka any ideas on what works?

 

[peakbagger]

I will leave the air vent advocates to do their thing. I am going to advocate figuring out where the air is coming from?. I see a large expansion tank in one of the photos. This is the old style of tank without a diaphragm. Any chance that the tank is waterlogged?. Without adequate expansion volume, air can get drawn into the system every time the boiler cools down. Unlike a tank with a bladder, an open tank needs to be drained on occasion, otherwise they get waterlogged. IMHO needing to put in fancy air vents is usually a symptom of some other problem. I have a very similar combined system with two bladder type expansion tanks and all I have is a cheap scoop with float air vents and air has never been an issue once I bled the loops. I do have bleeder tees on each loop so I can hook up hose and force bleed each loop if I had to drain the system but its literally been years.

The other thing to check is the boiler pressure regulating valve is in working condition, these valves have a small seat that can plug up and once that happens, when the system cools down the pressure drops and that can cause air to get sucked in. There is a rubber bellows inside this valve that gets old. In theory the valves can be rebuilt but I have never found anyone that stock those kits so I just have one on hand and swap it out. The big sign something is not right is watching the system pressure, from cold to warm, the pressure should never go below 15 PSI.

 

[Eureka]

Eureka any ideas on what works?

Check out that old school expansion tank, as @peakbagger said. If it was me, I’d get rid of it and put in a new bladder style tank. My old place had chronic little annoying issues until I did that.
Also, Webstone purge and fill valves are awesome and work very well to flush and purge air from a single point, while being able to flush zone by zone. Good videos on Webstone’s site.

58614 - Webstone 58614 - 1" Sweat Full Port Purge & Fill Ball Valve

Webstone 58614 - 1" Sweat Full Port Purge & Fill Ball Valve - <li>Simultaneously drain, flush & refill any hydronic, solar, or closed loop system <li>T-pattern flow path quickly and easily prevents the fl ow between the two hose connections <li>As fluid is introduced into the system, the...

www.supplyhouse.com

Those little plunger air vents only seem effective with large bubbles or pockets of air, and the small bubbles and dissolved oxygen cruise right by them. The air scoop is supposed to disrupt the bubbles and direct them toward the vent, in theory. I’ve removed a few air scoop/$10 vent combos that were rotting from the inside out because the air collected there but wasn’t spitting it out.
Once you see the inside of a Spirovent, Spirotop, Discal, etc. it’s pretty easy to see the difference. I always seem to get a few hisses out of them on the first startup of the season, meaning they are doing their job.

 

[Bad LP]

Those little air vents are pretty worthless in my opinion; worse without the air scoop

Mine vents work just fine. No scoop installed but kept it just in case.

 

[Eastcoast]

@peakbagger bagger I actually just drained my system about 2 weeks ago to do something so could it water log that quick?

@Eureka if I was to replace my old expansion tank beside my wood boiler with a bladder type can the tank be mounted upside down so I don't have to change my piping or do I need to change the piping?

 

[peakbagger]

If you drained the system and the tank is now waterlogged, then you definitely have a problem.

 

[Eastcoast]

I'm not sure if it's waterlogged what's the best way to check just the tapping on the tank method? And should the system be cold or hot when ya check

 

[Eureka]

Best practice is expansion tank connection pointing up, but it will work in basically any position, as long as it’s fully supported (not only by piping). A bladder tank will be a lot smaller than the air tank you have.

 

[Eastcoast]

@Eureka so the bladder style will work like in this picture? Cause I have a bladder styler beside my oil boiler but the pipping goes down into it not up

 

[Eureka]

Change the piping around 180 so it points down when you replace the tank. It’ll be easy since you have a shut off valve there.

 

[Eastcoast]

Ok and just one more thing before I do change that big old tank this is a diagram from my Kerr tw2000 manual I know my set up is a bit different and I have 2 expansion tanks but it says min size is 12' by 36" is it gonna be ok if I put a small bladder style?

 

[Eureka]

The new tank needs to be sized properly to match the old tank. Figure your existing tank volume in gallons and multiply by .55 to get the acceptance volume needed for a new bladder tank.

 

[Eastcoast]

Ok sounds good. I'm going to put a new tank in and a air scoop under my automatic air vent and if that doesn't work I'm going to try the magic bucket like @salecker said. Then if I still have air I guess I'll have to live with it lol

 

[Eastcoast]

Also for @salecker in this picture if I hook the pump outlet where I have indicated and then a short piece of hose one end to inlet on pump and other end into the bucket then another short piece of hose from the boiler drain where I have indicated and other end also into the bucket is this correct? And also it's only one drain valve for all 4 zones can I do all 4 at the same time or should I shut the ball valves on 3 of them and do 1 at a time?

 

[salecker]

I would try it if the scoop dosn't work for you.
I would do one zone at a time with as many valves shut that you can,treat each zone separately,then the boiler.