Need help about ceiling support box.

[Bonsai]

Hi, I’m a first time wood stove owner and this is the first time for me to post here. I live in a 40’x 60’x20’ barndominium with at 6/12 roof pitch where the living area is on the mezzanine level that spans 800 sq ft. The entire ground level is shop area, but 1600 sq ft of the shop is the area that doesn’t have a mezzanine, so from the concrete slab going vertically goes straight to the roof (standing seam). The building is 100% metal, except for the mudroom interior walls, stairs, interior walls of the mezzanine and plywood walls that runs along the first 8’ of the exterior walls on the inside of the shop. The building is 100% spray foam insulated (open cell on walls that are not exposed and closed cell on exposed walls and ceiling (which is the underside of the steel roof).

I am in process of having a Hearthstone Green Mountain 80 installed in the shop area alongside one of the 60’ side walls. My installer connected 8" single wall stove pipe to the stove collar and then transitioned to 6" double wall insulated chimney pipe that goes through a larger diameter sleeve (pardon if I’m using the wrong terminology) which both extend up through the ceiling and roof. The chimney stack is ~ 7ft and will be supported by braces on the outside. As I was observing the transition through the ceiling and roof, I asked my installer if something else was supposed to be installed before the stove pipe transitions to chimney pipe and he said that normally a ceiling support box is placed there but it isn’t required. Is that true? If there are any people who are experts in this matter, I would welcome your thoughts on the upside and downside of not having one installed. Also, transitioning from 8" stove pipe to 6" double wall insulated chimney pipe--any thoughts would be appreciated. Many thanks.

 

[bholler]

Hi, I’m a first time wood stove owner and this is the first time for me to post here. I live in a 40’x 60’x20’ barndominium with at 6/12 roof pitch where the living area is on the mezzanine level that spans 800 sq ft. The entire ground level is shop area, but 1600 sq ft of the shop is the area that doesn’t have a mezzanine, so from the concrete slab going vertically goes straight to the roof (standing seam). The building is 100% metal, except for the mudroom interior walls, stairs, interior walls of the mezzanine and plywood walls that runs along the first 8’ of the exterior walls on the inside of the shop. The building is 100% spray foam insulated (open cell on walls that are not exposed and closed cell on exposed walls and ceiling (which is the underside of the steel roof). I am in process of having a Hearthstone Green Mountain 80 installed in the shop area alongside one of the 60’ side walls. My installer connected 8" single wall stove pipe to the stove collar and then transitioned to 6" double wall insulated chimney pipe that goes through a larger diameter sleeve (pardon if I’m using the wrong terminology) which both extend up through the ceiling and roof. The chimney stack is ~ 7ft and will be supported by braces on the outside. As I was observing the transition through the ceiling and roof, I asked my installer if something else was supposed to be installed before the stove pipe transitions to chimney pipe and he said that normally a ceiling support box is placed there but it isn’t required. Is that true? If there are any people who are experts in this matter, I would welcome your thoughts on the upside and downside of not having one installed. Also, transitioning from 8" stove pipe to 6" double wall insulated chimney pipe--any thoughts would be appreciated. Many thanks.

Post some pictures. And if the stove has an 8" collar it needs to be 8" the whole way.

You probably also want double wall pipe to keep temps up on a run that long

 

[begreen]

There are a few ways to support the chimney pipe. One of them is with a roof support, but if there is a ceiling, then a ceiling support box is the normal way to support it. Why would this not be the case here?

Why is this stove getting choked down to 6"?

 

[Bonsai]

Post some pictures. And if the stove has an 8" collar it needs to be 8" the whole way.

You probably also want double wall pipe to keep temps up on a run that long

Hi bhollar,
Here are some pics:

 

[bholler]

Hi bhollar,
Here are some pics:

View attachment 304264 View attachment 304265

It doesn't even look like they hooked to the chimney properly. How is the chimney supported?

 

[Bonsai]

There are a few ways to support the chimney pipe. One of them is with a roof support, but if there is a ceiling, then a ceiling support box is the normal way to support it. Why would this not be the case here?

Why is this stove getting choked down to 6"?

Hi begreen,
I posted a couple of pics in response to someone who replied earlier so can get an idea of what the install looks like in its current state. He hasn’t done this yet but the installer will be putting a support brace around the chimney and securing the arms of it to the standing seam in the roof. As for choking it down to 6”, I asked the same question and he told that he didn’t believe it was necessary to have the stove pipe remain at 8” as it transitions to chimney pipe but also went on to say that it would damp down the stove if it drafts to hard/fast and lastly for cost reasons. I was a bit surprised to be honest when he mentioned the cost because at no time did I request any type of cost savings and I certainly wouldn’t request it if it potentially can affect the performance and safety. But since this is the first stove I’ve ever had installed, I didn’t know any better which is why I’m now seeking advice from other subject matter experts.

 

[Bonsai]

It doesn't even look like they hooked to the chimney properly. How is the chimney supported?

On the outside, he will be adding a support brace around the chimney and mounting its arms around to the standing seam. Inside, there is no other support for the stove pipe other than it being inserted into the stove collar on top of the stove. By the way, there are 3 holes for screws to go into the stove collar and pipe but he didn’t install any screws (yet).

 

[bholler]

On the outside, he will be adding a support brace around the chimney and mounting its arms around to the standing seam. Inside, there is no other support for the stove pipe other than it being inserted into the stove collar on top of the stove. By the way, there are 3 holes for screws to go into the stove collar and pipe but he didn’t install any screws (yet).

No what is holding the stainless class a chimney in place? Is the pipe all screwed together?

 

[Bonsai]

No what is holding the stainless class a chimney in place? Is the pipe all screwed together?

Oh, sorry about that. The stainless class a chimney seems to be secured to a 6” diameter slip connector with 3 screws and the slip connector is connected to the top end of a 12” length of 6” stove pipe (with no screws). Then the bottom end of the 6” stovepipe is connected to a 8-6 reducer (no screws). The 8” end of the reducer is connected to the 8” stove pipe (no screws either). All the lengths of 8” stove pipe are secured together with 3 screws wherever they join. When I was up on a ladder by the roof, I lightly placed my hand on the 6” reducer end and it seems flimsy. Needless to say, I am concerned about this.

It doesn't even look like they hooked to the chimney properly. How is the chimney supported?

Oh, sorry about that. The stainless class a chimney seems to be secured to a 6” diameter slip connector with 3 screws and the slip connector is connected to the top end of a 12” length of 6” stove pipe (with no screws). Then the bottom end of the 6” stovepipe is connected to a 8-6 reducer (no screws). The 8” end of the reducer is connected to the 8” stove pipe (no screws either). All the lengths of 8” stove pipe are secured together with 3 screws wherever they join. When I was up on a ladder by the roof, I lightly placed my hand on the 6” reducer end and it seems flimsy. Needless to say, I would suspect this should be cause for concern.

 

[bholler]

Oh, sorry about that. The stainless class a chimney seems to be secured to a 6” diameter slip connector with 3 screws and the slip connector is connected to the top end of a 12” length of 6” stove pipe (with no screws). Then the bottom end of the 6” stovepipe is connected to a 8-6 reducer (no screws). The 8” end of the reducer is connected to the 8” stove pipe (no screws either). All the lengths of 8” stove pipe are secured together with 3 screws wherever they join. When I was up on a ladder by the roof, I lightly placed my hand on the 6” reducer end and it seems flimsy. Needless to say, I am concerned about this.

Oh, sorry about that. The stainless class a chimney seems to be secured to a 6” diameter slip connector with 3 screws and the slip connector is connected to the top end of a 12” length of 6” stove pipe (with no screws). Then the bottom end of the 6” stovepipe is connected to a 8-6 reducer (no screws). The 8” end of the reducer is connected to the 8” stove pipe (no screws either). All the lengths of 8” stove pipe are secured together with 3 screws wherever they join. When I was up on a ladder by the roof, I lightly placed my hand on the 6” reducer end and it seems flimsy. Needless to say, I would suspect this should be cause for concern.

It absolutely is not right at all. There are several ways to support a class a chimney but it doesn't look like they used any at all. And they can't reduce pipe size. It really looks like they don't know what they are doing and didn't even bother to read the instructions

 

[Bonsai]

It absolutely is not right at all. There are several ways to support a class a chimney but it doesn't look like they used any at all. And they can't reduce pipe size. It really looks like they don't know what they are doing and didn't even bother to read the instructions

Yeah, I‘m getting that feeling as well. Putting aside the reduction in pipe size (which I’ll address with the installer), in your experience, what is the recommended practice to secure the class a chimney when there is no ceiling and just an insulated metal roof?

 

[bholler]

Yeah, I‘m getting that feeling as well. Putting aside the reduction in pipe size (which I’ll address with the installer), in your experience, what is the recommended practice to secure the class a chimney when there is no ceiling and just an insulated metal roof?

Frame it out to mount a support box or a roof mounted support bracket. The braces above the roof are not to support the weight just stabilize it side to side

 

[Bonsai]

Frame it out to mount a support box or a roof mounted support bracket. The braces above the roof are not to support the weight just stabilize it side to side

bholler, I appreciate the help. By the way, are you an installer?

 

[bholler]

bholler, I appreciate the help. By the way, are you an installer?

I am a chimney sweep so yes I install chimneys stoves liners ect

 

[Bonsai]

I am a chimney sweep so yes I install chimneys stoves liners ect

Just out of curiousity do you know what the pipe size reduction will do in terms of performance and safety of the operation? Have you had any experience with that in your line of work?

 

[bholler]

Just out of curiousity do you know what the pipe size reduction will do in terms of performance and safety of the operation? Have you had any experience with that in your line of work?

It's hard to say for sure there are just to many variables involved. It could hurt draft to a point in interferes with stove function. It could just be a spot for creosote buildup But it is a clear code violation

 

[Bonsai]

Hi bhollar, Regarding the code violation, would it be possible to point me to where I can find this--nationally or is it by state? I would like to point this out to the installer just to be prepared for his response. Thanks again for your assistance.

 

[coaly]

Anyone notice the GARAGE DOOR next to this stove?

@Bonsai, the nationwide safety Standard is NFPA-211 which covers solid fuel burning appliances and venting. This Standard is adopted by state building codes which can add to it, but not take anything away. Then local codes can add more restrictions, but not take anything away from either.

NFPA-211 allows 1 inch reduction in diameter from stove outlet. Texas, like most states, has adopted the International Family of Codes where the Mechanical Code allows no reduction.

NFPA-211 also prohibits solid fuel appliances where flammable vapors are present as well as installation in garages. (many are still install in garages, but insurance claims will be denied. Installation in a unattached garage where the owner assumes liability for the garage loss is fine, but with a attached garage, this affects the entire building)

All these codes also require stoves and chimneys to be installed as per manufacturer installation instructions. The chimney becomes a UL Listed assembly when installed as tested.

 

[bholler]

Hi bhollar, Regarding the code violation, would it be possible to point me to where I can find this--nationally or is it by state? I would like to point this out to the installer just to be prepared for his response. Thanks again for your assistance.

I believe it is is the national mechanical code. It says you can't reduce more that one inch from the outlet size of the appliance. Your stove manual also probably requires 8" the whole way. Which you are required to follow the manual by code as well.

 

[bholler]

Anyone notice the GARAGE DOOR next to this stove?

@Bonsai, the nationwide safety Standard is NFPA-211 which covers solid fuel burning appliances and venting. This Standard is adopted by state building codes which can add to it, but not take anything away. Then local codes can add more restrictions, but not take anything away from either.

NFPA-211 allows 1 inch reduction in diameter from stove outlet. Texas, like most states, has adopted the International Family of Codes where the Mechanical Code allows no reduction.

NFPA-211 also prohibits solid fuel appliances where flammable vapors are present as well as installation in garages.

All these codes also require stoves and chimneys to be installed as per manufacturer installation instructions. The chimney becomes a UL Listed assembly when installed as tested.

I did not and am surprised I missed it thanks.

 

[coaly]

I did not and am surprised I missed it thanks.

Yeah, this I guess is a “you have to be there to believe it” kind of thing.

Next the installer will blame the stove for not heating the area. (Even with an Eco-Fan) !?!