Need help regarding liner issues

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davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
557
New haven, Connecticut
This is important enough to me for a new thread to hopefully gather some attention and help. Everyone has been great here and I need help as I am somewhat stuck.

The liner in place for the installation of my Pacific Energy Summit LE insert was somewhat short. The prior installer should have gone 35 ft and going all the way to the unit. They did not do that ended up with an ugly 90° that we talked about.

1) The end of the liner is not round. I'm worried I'm going to have difficulty attaching anything to this? Any ideas about rounding it out or should I use a male adapter that inserts into the liner to prevent smoke from escaping? Perhaps would have to cut off the crimped male end of the liner.

2) it seems impossible to push the liner upward as it might be caught on the damper that might not have been cut sufficiently enough to pass the liner through easily. So I'm concerned when I get the unit in place I won't be able to push the liner and adapter out of the way. Any thoughts or strategies here? I hope I don't have to take off the block off plate.

3) I'm wondering if I should use a 6-in to 5-in adapter at the fireplace insert, and then place 5 in liner inside the existing liner for several feet. If you recall my setup has no problem with breathing and overdrafting was the issue so 5-in constriction I don't think would be an issue and actually a help. Any thoughts on this?

I really don't want to move forward without some guidance and suggestions because I could really screw things up here and need a new liner.

Hopefully with a picture will help. I really welcome some support here. I think this might be one of the last hurdles to a nightmarish few months of a unit that failed from overheating.

Thank you,

David

20220507_145009.jpg
 
Last edited:

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
28,678
central pa
This is important enough to me for a new thread to hopefully gather some attention and help. Everyone has been great here and I need help as I am somewhat stuck.

The liner in place for the installation of my Pacific Energy Summit LE insert was somewhat short. The prior installer should have gone 35 ft and going all the way to the unit. They did not do that ended up with an ugly 90° that we talked about.

1) The end of the liner is not round. I'm worried I'm going to have difficulty attaching anything to this? Any ideas about rounding it out or should I use a male adapter that inserts into the liner to prevent smoke from escaping? Perhaps would have to cut off the crimped male end of the liner.

2) it seems impossible to push the liner upward as it might be caught on the damper that might not have been cut sufficiently enough to pass the liner through easily. So I'm concerned when I get the unit in place I won't be able to push the liner and adapter out of the way. Any thoughts or strategies here? I hope I don't have to take off the block off plate.

3) I'm wondering if I should use a 6-in to 5-in adapter at the fireplace insert, and then place 5 in liner inside the existing liner for several feet. If you recall my setup has no problem with breathing and overdrafting was the issue so 5-in constriction I don't think would be an issue and actually a help. Any thoughts on this?

I really don't want to move forward without some guidance and suggestions because I could really screw things up here and need a new liner.

Hopefully with a picture will help. I really welcome some support here. I think this might be one of the last hurdles to a nightmarish few months of a unit that failed from overheating.

Thank you,

David

View attachment 295401
I. Would pull the block off plate cut the damper area open and get a scrap of liner with a coupler and proper stovetop adapter. That way you can cut the bad section out and put in new
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
557
New haven, Connecticut
I. Would pull the block off plate cut the damper area open and get a scrap of liner with a coupler and proper stovetop adapter. That way you can cut the bad section out and put in new
Not sure I can access that area work enough.

Thank you
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
557
New haven, Connecticut
That's why you need to remove the block off plate and cut out the damper area
Thank you. Before I take the plate off, I'm wondering if I'm overthinking it. How out of round is okay? The connection was working, that is no smoke exiting etc. Any thoughts on that?

Additionally, if you don't mind answering a curiosity a I have, in wood burning installations the orientation of pipe fittings is male at the bottom and female at the top. This seems like an opportunity for smoke and fumes to escape. Is the orientation to assist in cleaning, that is particles will fall and not get caught in the pipe junctions?
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
28,678
central pa
Thank you. Before I take the plate off, I'm wondering if I'm overthinking it. How out of round is okay? The connection was working, that is no smoke exiting etc. Any thoughts on that?

Additionally, if you don't mind answering a curiosity a I have, in wood burning installations the orientation of pipe fittings is male at the bottom and female at the top. This seems like an opportunity for smoke and fumes to escape. Is the orientation to assist in cleaning, that is particles will fall and not get caught in the pipe junctions?
Out of round isnt a problem it can be bent back to round. The end being crimped is a problem it will never fit properly.

And the male end down is to direct anything inside the pipe down instead of outside the pipe. That means dirt, condensation, or creosote. It's the same for all liners
 
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davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
557
New haven, Connecticut
Out of round isnt a problem it can be bent back to round. The end being crimped is a problem it will never fit properly.

And the male end down is to direct anything inside the pipe down instead of outside the pipe. That means dirt, condensation, or creosote. It's the same for all
Thank you. What tool should I use to cut off that crimped end?
 

coaly

Fisher Moderator
Staff member
Dec 22, 2007
4,560
NE PA
Thank you. Before I take the plate off, I'm wondering if I'm overthinking it. How out of round is okay? The connection was working, that is no smoke exiting etc. Any thoughts on that?

Additionally, if you don't mind answering a curiosity a I have, in wood burning installations the orientation of pipe fittings is male at the bottom and female at the top. This seems like an opportunity for smoke and fumes to escape. Is the orientation to assist in cleaning, that is particles will fall and not get caught in the pipe junctions?
The reason the upper male end faces downward is so any condensing water vapor from combustion stays inside the pipe, doesn’t leak out, and drips back down to be consumed in stove.

Any leaks at joints or openings into vent system leaks air IN, not smoke or exhaust out.

The rising exhaust gases are lighter than outside air rising up the chimney. This creates a low pressure area inside the flue, pipe and stove. (A slight vacuum, measured as draft) This allows the higher atmospheric air pressure to PUSH into the stove intake feeding oxygen to the fire. This is what makes the stove work. Any leaks into the venting system above the fire allows cooler air to leak in and mix with the rising gases. This reduces draft and allows the cooled water vapor in exhaust to condense in flue. (The object is keeping the inner flue gas temp above 250*f to the top, hence insulation around the liner to stay hotter as it cools while rising) Mixing with smoke particles, this condensed water vapor wets the flue walls allowing smoke particles to stick, forming creosote, so leaks must be minimized.
 

davidmsem

Minister of Fire
Oct 30, 2014
557
New haven, Connecticut
The reason the upper male end faces downward is so any condensing water vapor from combustion stays inside the pipe, doesn’t leak out, and drips back down to be consumed in sto

Any leaks at joints or openings into vent system leaks air IN, not smoke or exhaust out.

The rising exhaust gases are lighter than outside air rising up the chimney. This creates a low pressure area inside the flue, pipe and stove. (A slight vacuum, measured as draft) This allows the higher atmospheric air pressure to PUSH into the stove intake feeding oxygen to the fire. This is what makes the stove work. Any leaks into the venting system above the fire allows cooler air to leak in and mix with the rising gases. This reduces draft and allows the cooled water vapor in exhaust to condense in flue. (The object is keeping the inner flue gas temp above 250*f to the top, hence insulation around the liner to stay hotter as it cools while rising) Mixing with smoke particles, this condensed water vapor wets the flue walls allowing smoke particles to stick, forming creosote, so leaks must be minimized.
Thanks I very much appreciate this. Great information and makes sense with the explanation. Might try to use the liner as is. The fit might not be perfect but good enough. In the prior install, they used a 90° elbow attached to what you see in the picture. That elbow had two roughly half inch holes left open that I never saw. So yes I understand now that the leaks while to be minimized, don't result in smoke coming out because of the vacuum.

Any leaking at this joint will certainly be less than the two half inch holes that existed in the prior installation.

Thank you again.
 

bholler

Chimney sweep
Staff member
Jan 14, 2014
28,678
central pa
Thank you. What tool should I use to cut off that crimped end?
I use an angle grinder but that light wall stuff can easily be cut with shears or even a utility knife