Need some advice on fireplace for new construction

[Sajowski]

We are breaking ground this week on a new home. It will be a 2400 sqft one-story home, with a full basement. The family room, kitchen, and dining room are open to one another. The family room has a steep cathedral ceiling with a fireplace on one end. It's an exterior wall, but the plan calls for the fireplace to be inside the envelope. The home will be 2x6 exterior walls, good insulation, and heated/cooled with a top of the line geothermal system. So the fireplace is primarily for ambiance, we shouldn't really need it as a primary source of heat.

So this is where I am stuck. We have budgeted about $6500 for a Quadrafire unit...but I am wondering if that is overkill for our needs. In talking to a few places, I could probably save $3-4k by going with a "normal" fireplace, not EPA certified. The one guy I've been talking to recommended a couple of units from Monessen (WarmMajic and Monarch) as possibilities. He said being that it is new construction, we can insulate it really well, and that they are better than the old junk inserts. He did say that they would still let a little cold air in, and they wouldn't heat as well as an EPA unit, but that for our needs, it may be fine.

So I guess I wanted to get some advice. Should I go with an EPA unit, or save a few bucks and go with something less efficient, but also less expensive? It's probably not something that would be used all of the time, just a couple times a week in the winter I'd guess.

The other thing I am struggling with is whether I should keep the unit inside the envelope, or move it outside to gain some space in the family room. Seems like that is generally considered a really bad idea...but I am afraid by the time the unit is framed in, and then the hearth, I'll have something jutting out 6' into the room.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

 

[begreen]

Welcome. I think you would be better off with an EPA unit, but you just might want to go a bit smaller, say in the 2 cu ft range like a BIS Tradition CE. But if this is strictly for ambience then maybe a straight ZC fireplace will suffice. If you put the fireplace outside of the house envelope, the alcove chase should still be very well, constructed, sealed, insulated and weatherproofed. If interior, the protrusion into the house should be more like about 45" including the hearth, which could be flush if ember protection only is all that is required. With a flush hearth and maybe built-in cabinets (and wood storage) on the side it will not feel like a major intrusion.

Does the 2400 sq ft include the basement or is that just for the main floor? How often do you experience power outages in this area?

 

[Sajowski]

Does the 2400 sq ft include the basement or is that just for the main floor? How often do you experience power outages in this area?

The 2400 sq ft is main floor, and we will have a full walkout basement that will eventually get finished. The geo will have a zone in the basement and another upstairs. We don't have very many outages, and anything longer than an hour or so is very rare.

 

[begreen]

It sounds like heating is not the goal here then, is that correct? If so, a nice basic fireplace for ambience should be enough to meet that requirement.

 

[Sajowski]

It sounds like heating is not the goal here then, is that correct? If so, a nice basic fireplace for ambience should be enough to meet that requirement.

That's what I was starting to think...the EPA model was looking like overkill in my situation. Are there any specific models that you would suggest I look into? Or are they all pretty similar once you are looking at something more basic than an EPA unit?

Appreciate the help.

 

[begreen]

There are some major differences in both EPA fireplaces and even with the regular ZC fireplaces. Note that you don't need to fill an EPA unit to the gills in order to have a nice fire and clean burn. A partial load of 3-4 logs for an evening fire is fine.

Basic units have a wide range, particularly in quality, but also in features. Some of the differences are features like a gas starter option, doors, door trim, heating options, blower, etc.. Sticking with a major brand like Monnesen, Lennox, Martin, is a good plan.

 

[billb3]

The 6 Mcmansions (two story) built next door to me were all built with a NG fireplace built on a bump-out in the living/family room. Makes sense to keep that room a tiny bit warmer and/or romantic fire in Winter. Nice quiet oil/hydronic for the balance of house heat.

I'd build the fireplace/ as thermal mass on a bump-out/ oversized alcove in the living room but with all the stone more of a thermal mass than a fireplace using a traditional stand-alone wood stove. Chimney and thermal mass inside an enclosed space but outside of the main thermal mass with no penetration in the main house roof. One could always replace the wood stove with a natural gas heater down the road, an advantage at resale.

edit: This isn't a "cheap" option , but it gives you a taste of a traditionally fireplaced living room but built with and keeping potentials open for using the modern ecologically sound wood/fuel burning commitments that are continually being updated in the future.

 

[begreen]

My BIL did this for his living room. He built a massive stone fireplace from stones on the property. Between the interior and exterior stone layer there is a thick insulation barrier. It's quite effective, for a fireplace.

Why would they put in a oil boiler in the McMansion if they have natural gas?

 

[Sajowski]

Note that you don't need to fill an EPA unit to the gills in order to have a nice fire and clean burn. A partial load of 3-4 logs for an evening fire is fine.

This was my other concern with an EPA model, that it might heat me right out of the room. On something like the Quad unit, if you do just a few logs, I would assume that lowers the amount of heat coming out of the unit as well, is that a correct assumption? We did decide to move the chimney outside of the room. The builder will construct the chimney like the rest of the house, so well insulated to hopefully avoid any issues there. We can then control how far into the room it protrudes. Now I just need to decide between the Quad, and something like the Monnessen Biltmore.

 

[Grisu]

This was my other concern with an EPA model, that it might heat me right out of the room.

You have an open floorplan and cathedral ceiling; I doubt you would have problems with an EPA-model. I have neither of the two and my insert warms up our living room nicely but never beyond unbearable. Putting less wood in if less heat is desired helps a lot. People complaining about too much heat are a small minority here.

 

[begreen]

Now I just need to decide between the Quad, and something like the Monnessen Biltmore.

There will be a major difference. One will heat the house and the other will pull heat out of the house as the fire dies.
Before deciding, get a heat loss analysis done on the house, especially if going for an EPA unit which will allow you to duct some of the heat (maybe to the basement?). Personally I would go for a smaller, high quality EPA unit.

 

[avsmusic1]

Personally I would go for a smaller, high quality EPA unit.

+1
especially with all the attractive insert options available

 

[begreen]

I should qualify that. Personally I would go for a smaller, high quality EPA unit if the home's heat loss is low and you only want an area heater.

 

[Kosmik]

I should qualify that. Personally I would go for a smaller, high quality EPA unit if the home's heat loss is low and you only want an area heater.

Do you have that info, probably needed in designing the GSHP.
I think a lot depends on how your GSHP gets designed and how much 'superheater' (i.e. electricity) you are trying to offset on the gshp with the wood burning.
Probably a good conversation to start up with whoever is designing the GSHP. You could potentially heat up the ground too much over the winter with enough wood heat? Leaving you hot and bothered in the summertime? I guess depend on design.

Or, OP are you doing all these calcs yourself? It was sounding like you have a small team of professionals working on this.

Wood could provide heat to help offset the electric usage of the gshp to heat above the ambient temp.