New Construction Questions- Zero Clearance Fireplace

[KCG]

First of all I've been lurking and reading threads for quite a while now- great forum with lots of really helpful people. I am getting ready to build my first home- I grew up with a free standing Blaze King and vastly prefer wood heat to the extremely expensive electric that I've been forced to have in the city.

Our new home will be a 2200 sq ft single story with a fairly open floor plan (click (broken link removed to http://www.monsterhouseplans.com/country-style-house-plans-2250-square-foot-home-1-story-4-bedroom-and-3-bath-2-garage-stalls-by-monster-house-plans-plan2-233.html) to see the plan). I would prefer a freestanding wood stove vented straight through the ceiling, but my wife wants the classic fireplace look, so I am in the market for a non-catalytic insert. Our home is located in Northeast Texas, average "cold" season is from December to March with nightly lows in the low to mid 30's and an occasional dip down into the teens for a week or two in January. I have been searching the forum pretty extensively trying to accumulate recommendations, but most involve retrofitting an existing masonry fireplace.

I don't want the added cost or weight of a masonry fireplace, I would prefer an insert cabinet on top of an 18-24" hearth. I am having a hard time determining which models are appropriate for a cabinet install and which are intended to retrofit a zero clearance fireplace. My chimney will be a straight run through the roof, should have about 19' of vertical run when finished and be located on the leeward side of the house. What recommendations do y'all have as far as particular inserts/cabinets are concerned, and advice/tips for the construction process?

 

[webby3650]

What you need to do is start searching for Zero Clearance high efficiency fireplaces. An insert will not work unless you have an existing fireplace to insert it into. These will heat as good, and will have the look you want.
For example: (broken link removed to http://enerzone-intl.com/product.aspx?CategoId=19&Id=446)

 

[KCG]

I was looking at a system like the High Valley Zero Clearance Cabinet, but I don't want to use one of their catalytic stoves. Is this not a functional setup? (broken link removed to http://www.highvalleystoves.com/fireplaceinserts.php)

 

[Grisu]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

What you want to look for is an efficient, EPA-approved zero clearance fireplace. That will give you the look and feel of a classic fireplace but heat almost as well as a woodstove. Look for something with a firebox of ~3.0 cu ft. That should heat most/all of your house without roasting you. Some manufacturers:

(broken link removed) (not all of them are highly efficient, look for the EPA-approved ones)
http://www.fireplacex.com/ProductGuide/FuelTypeOverview.aspx?fueltype=wood&fueltab=0 (The Hybrid-fyre ones are inserts and not for your application)
(broken link removed to http://www.icc-rsf.com/en/rsf-woodburning-fireplaces)
(broken link removed to http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/products/nz3000-high-country-wood-burning-fireplace/)
(broken link removed to http://pacificenergy.net/products/wood/fireplaces/fp30-arch/)

Look at those manuals on how to do the proper framing around them. Here is a recent post of a member who is currently installing one:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/would-this-convection-setup-work.110625/#post-1697277

Once you have decided on a few candidates you can search the forum for experiences and/or ask for some feedback here.

Please be also aware that all those efficient fireplaces need seasoned wood with a moisture content of less than 20% to burn properly and safely. I would try to get the wood ASAP and stack it with lots of wind in sun exposure. Maybe there is some room at the building site?

 

[Grisu]

I was looking at a system like the High Valley Zero Clearance Cabinet, but I don't want to use one of their catalytic stoves. Is this not a functional setup? (broken link removed to http://www.highvalleystoves.com/fireplaceinserts.php)

It is functional but quite a bit more complicated than just buying a proper ZC fireplace outright. You essentially buy an insert and then another steelbox that you can put around it to make it a ZC fireplace. Looking at the prices it is not even that much cheaper than buying a dedicated ZC fireplace. (Not to mention that I think that there are better looking fireplaces out there than the High Valley but that is just my opinion.) Check out the links I posted and you will find plenty of options. Btw. Why are you so opposed to catalytic fireplaces when you grew up with a BK?

 

[KCG]

I have quite a bit of wood on the ground at the moment from clearing out old fence rows surrounding the build site. It's mostly hackberry but it's free and it should be well seasoned by the time we get into the house.

Just to clarify, I've budgeted $5,000 for the fireplace including installation. I don't have a problem going with a zero clearance fireplace, but everything I've found has been out of that budget, which is why I was considering a cabinet/insert with a class A stove pipe. I'l planning on framing a false wall of metal studs and cement board to place stone on the surround, so clearance shouldn't be an issue.

Edited to add-- Our stove growing up was an old non cat Blaze King. I'm simply more inclined to non catalytic for simplicity's sake.

And THANKS for the links, I'm perusing the sites now.

 

[Grisu]

A bit on the small side (2.5 cu ft firebox) but within your budget: http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Firep...Stratford-Zero-Clearance-Wood-Stove-Fireplace
The PE FP9 is around $3300. (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacfp30.htm)
Also, with a proper ZC fireplace you can use 2x4 studs for framing. That should bring down costs. Are you thinking of doing the install yourself?

 

[KCG]

I'm back and forth on installing it myself. I don't think it would be inordinately difficult but this is really the only area of the job where one uh-oh can equal a burned down house...

 

[Grisu]

I'm back and forth on installing it myself. I don't think it would be inordinately difficult but this is really the only area of the job where one uh-oh can equal a burned down house...

Understandable, I would have similar reservations. What do those $5000 include? If it is fireplace unit, chimney, installation and surround that will be really limit your choices. If the $5000 mean only the unit and the chimney while you are doing the install yourself that should be feasible on the other hand. Maybe you can do the installation and before putting the surround up (like in the post I linked to) have someone inspect it (if that is not required anyway by your local authorities and your insurance). Once it gets the ok, putting up the drywall/veneer/whatever will not alter the installation.

Please be also aware that the chimney for a ZC fireplace is not simple 6 or 8-inch stovepipe. Check the manuals for the exact pipe you are allowed to use. I guess the same would apply to the High Valley insert you linked to.

 

[KCG]

The Pacific Energy stove you linked to would run me right at $5200 delivered including their chimney kit, which is well within the margin for what I'm looking for. Other than simple framing and surround, which will most likely be tile or possibly stone, there shouldn't be any additional costs if I do the install myself.

There are a few dealers in the Metromess around here but I wanted a solid idea of what I needed before I went and got "convinced" by a salesman. I also have a good friend that owns an A/C supply company and I might be able to get a good deal on a Lennox system, but there again I'd need a very good grasp of what was needed before I started ordering.

 

[Grisu]

If the $5000 are mainly the fireplace and chimney you should find several models that would work for you. Look also at KozyHeat, forgot to add those earlier.
Since a new construction is usually rather air-tight I would suggest to include an outside air kit (OAK) with the fireplace. That way you ensure good draft and you won't use heated room air to feed the fire.
Also, some fireplaces can be ducted to supply the heat to other parts of the house. Maybe something to ask your A/C friend about.
The PE website has a dealer finder so you may not need to pay for the shipping.
For other questions, keep asking here. Enough knowledgeable people around to answer (almost) any question.

 

[KCG]

I've been searching and reading reviews of the models you listed, and I found several references to the Osburn Stratford being the same unit as the Flame Monaco with th exception of the Stratford having refractory panels and the Monaco having traditional firebrick. Given my installation requirements and heating needs, I'm really liking what the Monaco has to offer for the price, and best of all it passed the wife's "oh that looks cute" test. Here's a link to the product http://www.efireplacestore.com/cpf-93375.html, am I making a mistake in looking at this one?

 

[Grisu]

I've been searching and reading reviews of the models you listed, and I found several references to the Osburn Stratford being the same unit as the Flame Monaco with th exception of the Stratford having refractory panels and the Monaco having traditional firebrick. Given my installation requirements and heating needs, I'm really liking what the Monaco has to offer for the price, and best of all it passed the wife's "oh that looks cute" test. Here's a link to the product http://www.efireplacestore.com/cpf-93375.html, am I making a mistake in looking at this one?

I doubt it is a mistake. Do a search here for the Monaco as well as the Stratford since both are practically the same unit. You can also PM the user "fyrebug" whose company makes those fireplaces. The unit allows a fresh air kit which I certainly recommend. You can also duct it to push hot air into another room. Bedroom 3, for example, could benefit from some extra heat or, if you can get it there, the Master bedroom. Be also aware that the layout of your home is not that great for woodheat. Places like the Master bedroom or the office will be challenged to get enough heat. Whatever other heat source you have, I would suggest to zone it extensively and be prepared to supplement the woodheat.

 

[jeff_t]

Fyrebug has moved on, and is no longer with SBI. I'm sure he will gladly answer a PM, though.

 

[begreen]

I was looking at a system like the High Valley Zero Clearance Cabinet, but I don't want to use one of their catalytic stoves. Is this not a functional setup? (broken link removed to http://www.highvalleystoves.com/fireplaceinserts.php)

These are fireplace inserts, not ZC cabinets. They need a fireplace to install them into. As webby pointed out, start looking at EPA high-efficiency, zero-clearance fireplaces. Given the home floorplan I would look for one that is ductable so that you can distribute the heat better. The way the floorplan is laid out, without something to improve convection the heat is going to mostly stay in the great room up at the peak of the cathedral ceiling. Ceiling fans can help move this heat somewhat. Ducting some of the ZC fireplace heat into halls 1 & 2 will also help.

Here's another example of what you should be looking for:
(broken link removed to http://www.kozyheat.com/product/z42)
(broken link removed to http://www.kozyheat.com/product/z42)

 

[Dave A.]

The High Valley Insert coupled with their zero-clearance cabinet (which looks like it is essentially a ZC fireplace made for the HV insert) seems like it would work fine considering costs and firebox size (for the 2500 model), unless I'm not following correctly, though I can understand that a single unit high efficiency ZC fireplace has its advantages.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for pointing that option out Dave. TI have never seen one of these installed. The cabinet lacks the option to duct out the heat to another location which I would do in this house layout.

 

[Grisu]

Fyrebug has moved on, and is no longer with SBI. I'm sure he will gladly answer a PM, though.

Thanks, Jeff, for pointing that out. I must have missed that. Is he still in the hearth business?

 

[begreen]

No.

 

[jeff_t]

Thanks, Jeff, for pointing that out. I must have missed that. Is he still in the hearth business?

He didn't exactly announce his intentions here, but he did elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure he would offer up advice, but he doesn't have the 'pull' he used to.

 

[KCG]

Thanks everyone for the sound advice. I went and visited Chimney King in Plano yesterday to get some cost ideas, and after going over our floorplan the rep suggested we consider the Fireplace Xtrordinair 36. He said the Posi-Pressure system would reliably heat our entire house with no ducting or backup heat. Obviously I'm somewhat dubious, though every review I've read has been glowing. He quoted me $6500 installed with tax, which is a bit over budget but still in the realm of possibility.

So what day ye, is he shooting me straight or, pardon the pun, blowing smoke up my rear? Does the posi-pressure system really work that much better than a conventional blower system?

Oh and just to clarify, we are deleting the cathedral ceiling in the great room, we'll be flat 10' in that room and 9' in the rest of the house.

 

[begreen]

I've read about the system but have never experienced it. That said most FPX owners are pleased with their performance and quality. How well it is going to distribute in this situation is unknown. It presumes that the house will be leaky enough for positive pressure to cause heat to infiltrate the house. A couple caveats I see are that this house is going to be tighter than average and the thought of heating below zero intake air in the middle of winter seems like it would degrade efficiency. It also requires cooling vents, which seems inefficient. I'm not saying it won't work, just that I am a little skeptical in this situation. But perhaps by having a one way exhaust vent in both ends of the house it can perform as advertised. I'd ask for references and speak to other owners. The FPX may work fine, I just have no actual experience with one.

PS: Kudos on lowering the ceiling. That will definitely save some heating costs and will give you a nice storage area above.

 

[KCG]

As long as I don't get any surprises, I plan to upgrade to foam insulation, and I'll be using vinyl windows with 1" insulated units. It should be a relatively tight house. I'm having problems deciding if the supposed higher performance of the FPX is really worth the added expense compared to a more conventional model.

The salesman also told me, and I quote, "If a BMW is a 10 and a 1 is banged together with rocks in South Sudan, the Osburn stoves are around a 4".

 

[begreen]

I would have rated the Osburn or Valcourt higher considering there are no stoves on the US market banged together with rocks. SBI makes a decent product.

 

[KCG]

Which is why I'm less inclined to trust this particular salesman. I have no problem paying extra but not for unicorn tailfeathers.

He also told me that I would have roughly the same replacement interval for the burner tubes in an EPA non-catalytic stove, which I've never heard anywhere else.