New EVs for 2020

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DBoon

Minister of Fire
Jan 14, 2009
1,179
Central NY
Agreed. I just bought a new car yesterday, another big V8 gasser, because I still care more about my wallet and convenience than being virtuous.
I can't argue with this and Ashful is 98% of the market. His hurdles are the market hurdles that BEVs and PHEVs have to overcome.

I do believe that in 3 years, we'll see many of these market hurdles get a lot lower. Probably the last hurdle to lower will be the existing dealer networks who seem to be resisting where the market is going. It will be interesting to see how long that lasts. This may be what proves to be the fatal flaw for existing car companies - intransigent dealers that they have no control over - and the big opening that companies like Tesla or Rivian or others exploit to build their market share. It makes you wonder why GM wouldn't pull a Saturn play and build a whole new brand and dealer network/selling model dedicated to their BEVs just to do an end-run around those who cannot get on-board the market shift.
 
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Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
15,715
Philadelphia
Thanks for not coming down too hard on me, DBoon. I didn’t feel great about the decision, but in the end I had to go with what was most practical. I will be due for a new sedan in 2026, and a new truck in 2027, and fully expect both will be EV’s, but only time will tell...
 

DBoon

Minister of Fire
Jan 14, 2009
1,179
Central NY
We all write the equation differently. For me, the equation balances today - about even money over the life of the car with performance and environmental benefits to boot. Others who drive less and have different needs or aren't willing to deal with some of the sacrifices (e.g., range) will see things differently. It's obvious that the latter is the bulk of the market today. We'll see where it goes five years out.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,494
Downeast Maine
After reading about Toyota being heavy into HFC and this: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/01/64-million-makes-it-official-renewable-hydrogen-in-natural-gas-out-eventually/amp/

It got me wondering why hydrogen isn't used as an ICE fuel for near zero emissions and a renewable fuel source that returns to its original state after combustion. This would even utilize the current infrastructure. Everything will get a supercharger, but that's pretty cool.

This link leads PDF of a paper about Hydrogen as an ICE fuel: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://yadda.icm.edu.pl/baztech/element/bwmeta1.element.baztech-article-BUJ8-0019-0017/c/httpwww_bg_utp_edu_plartkones32012j20o20kones20201220no20320vol_201920grab.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi7yZaO9LXnAhWTXc0KHWfzB4IQFjANegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3y6VQJfON-OPuF8_QP3ac2
 

jebatty

Minister of Fire
Jan 1, 2008
5,751
Northern MN
At a Superbowl party last night, during the pre-game, I had an interesting conversation with a person who in the past I could barely talk with due to politics. He is a person who is quite an inventor of some very interesting things but who is having great difficulty breaking into the market on a very usable product due to kickback from those in the market who would be threatened by his inventions. During the discussion I brought up the saga of EVs and likened their slow penetration in the market it to his experience on the invention. He saw the parallel quickly, and then stated that EVs are here to stay and will continue to grow rapidly in the market.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
83,696
South Puget Sound, WA
We all write the equation differently. For me, the equation balances today - about even money over the life of the car with performance and environmental benefits to boot. Others who drive less and have different needs or aren't willing to deal with some of the sacrifices (e.g., range) will see things differently. It's obvious that the latter is the bulk of the market today. We'll see where it goes five years out.
Yes, it is an investment that not only reflects one's personal lifestyle choices, but in our children's future. The decision to be a bit more economical and energy-efficient matters on the individual level just as much as it matters on the corporate level. It's a small price to pay now, vs a much greater cost tomorrow.

Emissions are the reason for climate change. Reducing those emissions is the responsibility of all of us. Change doesn't happen without a public attitude change. Politics won't change this problem until we change. In a consumer society this change starts with changing our purchasing habits. Every purchase is a vote.
 
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P51mustang

Burning Hunk
Jan 7, 2014
135
Upstate, NY
Some folks in the automotive industry surmise that Toyota is looking way out into mid century with so much money and effort being placed into hydrogen fuel cell technology. Not so much for the North American market (due to vast infrastructure issues ) but potentially Europe and certainly for Asia.

Personally I'm awaiting the first Hybrid and/or all electric 1/2 ton pickup truck. Given Ford is soon to deliver just such a vehicle and the Dodge Ram has an optional electric battery coupled with a gas engine that increases fuel economy significantly, more players may enter the field soon.

I live in very cold and snowy upstate, NY and use my pick up for things trucks were built for back in the day and so hope to go fully or all electric very soon.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,494
Downeast Maine
Some folks in the automotive industry surmise that Toyota is looking way out into mid century with so much money and effort being placed into hydrogen fuel cell technology. Not so much for the North American market (due to vast infrastructure issues ) but potentially Europe and certainly for Asia.

Personally I'm awaiting the first Hybrid and/or all electric 1/2 ton pickup truck. Given Ford is soon to deliver just such a vehicle and the Dodge Ram has an optional electric battery coupled with a gas engine that increases fuel economy significantly, more players may enter the field soon.

I live in very cold and snowy upstate, NY and use my pick up for things trucks were built for back in the day and so hope to go fully or all electric very soon.
GM and I think Chysler used to offer hybrid 1/2 ton trucks.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
83,696
South Puget Sound, WA
Derailed_thread.jpg
General truck talk really should go to another non-EV thread.

EDIT: Posts moved to new thread. Thanks Ashful.
 
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Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
15,715
Philadelphia
View attachment 258224
General truck talk really should go to another non-EV thread.
Here you go:

 

P51mustang

Burning Hunk
Jan 7, 2014
135
Upstate, NY
There is almost nothing the same between an 09 and a 2020 F150. Engines, transmissions, ECM, Body, frame have all changed.

The biggest engine offered in 09 was the 5.4 at 320hp. For 2020 the 2 bottom tier engines the 3.3 V6 at 290hp and 2.7ecoboost at 325hp offer similar power, payload and towing to what an 09 5.4 had.

Not to also mention the new 10 speed transmissions in the 2020's.

You can spend a pile more on a new 2020, but for similar specs as the vehicle you'd replace it's not as much as you think.

I stand corrected and thanks for the insight. It seems there was significant redesign. Do you have any knowledge or insight as to the forthcoming fully electric F-150? You seem pretty knowledgeable about the Ford pick-ups and so any info. on the electric would be greatly appreciated.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
83,696
South Puget Sound, WA
It's mostly just chatter and speculation about the new F150EV features. Ford took out a patent for a front "frunk", which can be accessed without opening the hood.

It looks like they have beefed up the frame too.
 
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ABMax24

Feeling the Heat
The thing I'm really concerned for the EV F150 is the ability of Ford engineers to think outside the box. Peterbuilt built an electric semi, but they decided instead of using direct drive motors to the axles to run the motors through a traditional auto shifting manual transmission with an automatic clutch, I understand the need for low end pulling torque but surely they could have come up with a better solution.

In so many ways EV's need clean slate thinking, not adaptations to existing designs. But regardless of the outcome good on Ford for making the jump to EV's, late is better than never.
 
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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,494
Downeast Maine
The thing I'm really concerned for the EV F150 is the ability of Ford engineers to think outside the box. Peterbuilt built an electric semi, but they decided instead of using direct drive motors to the axles to run the motors through a traditional auto shifting manual transmission with an automatic clutch, I understand the need for low end pulling torque but surely they could have come up with a better solution.

In so many ways EV's need clean slate thinking, not adaptations to existing designs. But regardless of the outcome good on Ford for making the jump to EV's, late is better than never.
I felt like hub mounted motors were the future, but the unsprung weight is enormous. Keeping the drive motors held by the suspension is an enormous advantage. I think Musk is right to try and challenge the age old pickup truck shape, but his cybertruck seems to have a lot of wasted potential in design as well. I probably can't think outside the box enough to come up with a better idea.
 
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Redbarn

Burning Hunk
Jul 30, 2012
242
SE PA
This week we have used our electric BMW I3 exclusively and despite rapidly falling gas prices, won’t use our ICE cars.
Why ?
We can charge at home and do not have to use potentially biologically harzardous gas stations.
 

Seasoned Oak

Minister of Fire
Oct 17, 2008
7,080
Eastern Central PA
Dino juice $1.99 Today ,been awhile since it was that cheap in PA.
 

SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,494
Downeast Maine
This week we have used our electric BMW I3 exclusively and despite rapidly falling gas prices, won’t use our ICE cars.
Why ?
We can charge at home and do not have to use potentially biologically harzardous gas stations.
This is a time I wish for an electric car/tractor.
 

P51mustang

Burning Hunk
Jan 7, 2014
135
Upstate, NY
This week we have used our electric BMW I3 exclusively and despite rapidly falling gas prices, won’t use our ICE cars.
Why ?
We can charge at home and do not have to use potentially biologically harzardous gas stations.

Good for you. Even before Covid-19 arrived on the scene I'd become a bit more mindful of the unhealthy atmosphere that comes with the typical gas station. From the minor fuel spills found on the concrete pads around pumps, to the unsanitary conditions on the pump handles, number pads, etc.... I'm by no means a clean freak, but it's amazing how unhealthy gas stations really are.

Not to mention the nicotine addicts I see lighting and toking up cigarettes while pumping gas into their vehicle while not realizing the danger they're putting themselves and others into. All because they can't wait 15 minutes to get their next fix. Most walk away from the pumps but some think nothing of sparking one up all while engulfed in a vapor cloud of gasoline.
 

P51mustang

Burning Hunk
Jan 7, 2014
135
Upstate, NY
I can't argue with this and Ashful is 98% of the market. His hurdles are the market hurdles that BEVs and PHEVs have to overcome.

I do believe that in 3 years, we'll see many of these market hurdles get a lot lower. Probably the last hurdle to lower will be the existing dealer networks who seem to be resisting where the market is going. It will be interesting to see how long that lasts. This may be what proves to be the fatal flaw for existing car companies - intransigent dealers that they have no control over - and the big opening that companies like Tesla or Rivian or others exploit to build their market share. It makes you wonder why GM wouldn't pull a Saturn play and build a whole new brand and dealer network/selling model dedicated to their BEVs just to do an end-run around those who cannot get on-board the market shift.
I wonder if some of the new start up companies that promise a new car buying experience (For example, Carvana) will ultimately lead to an increase in the purchase of more electric and/or hybrid vehicles.

Given the drop in gas prices and the economic chaos around us, maybe the shift will be delayed further, but eventually the traditional existing dealer networks, it would seem to me, will get on board or be left behind.
 

Ashful

Minister of Fire
Mar 7, 2012
15,715
Philadelphia
Good for you. Even before Covid-19 arrived on the scene I'd become a bit more mindful of the unhealthy atmosphere that comes with the typical gas station. From the minor fuel spills found on the concrete pads around pumps, to the unsanitary conditions on the pump handles, number pads, etc.... I'm by no means a clean freak, but it's amazing how unhealthy gas stations really are.

Not to mention the nicotine addicts I see lighting and toking up cigarettes while pumping gas into their vehicle while not realizing the danger they're putting themselves and others into. All because they can't wait 15 minutes to get their next fix. Most walk away from the pumps but some think nothing of sparking one up all while engulfed in a vapor cloud of gasoline.
I recently started carrying disposable mechanics nitrile gloves in all vehicles. Don the gloves before I get out of the car, and dispose of them when I’m done.

I used to work at a gas station, thru high school, paid for my first car and my auto insurance with that income. Saw a few accidents during the few years I was there, and one was indeed a smoker going up in flames. The amusing (almost karmic) thing about that one was that because it was summer and I had the store doors propped open, I had just watched and heard him look at our “No Smoking” sign and make some comment about the stupidity of that sign, mere seconds before he was in the middle of a fireball. Pure Darwinism at work, if there ever was such an immediate example of that.

That was not the worst accident I saw there, though. An old lady mistaking her accelerator for the brake pedal, behind the wheel of a 500 cid Cadillac did far more damage to far more property and people.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
83,696
South Puget Sound, WA
Closing thread. Once again it's wandered off into the weeds.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
83,696
South Puget Sound, WA
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begreen

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Nov 18, 2005
83,696
South Puget Sound, WA
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