New Farm Shop 70x54

Case1030

Feeling the Heat
Dec 12, 2017
276
Manitoba
Boiler recommendations for a new infloor heat farm shop being built. The dimensions are 54'x70' with 20' foot ceiling.

Looking at pellet or downdraft wood boilers. Also curious on recommendations for best storage size.

Thanks
 

hobbyheater

Minister of Fire
Nov 14, 2011
1,134
Boiler recommendations for a new infloor heat farm shop being built. The dimensions are 54'x70' with 20' foot ceiling.

Looking at pellet or downdraft wood boilers. Also curious on recommendations for best storage size.

Thanks
Have you considered a Garn, efficient boiler and storage all in one .
 

E Yoder

Feeling the Heat
Jan 27, 2017
375
Floyd, VA
Another option might be an automated chip burner. I see you're from Manitoba, when I was out there several years ago Heatmaster had one burning ag screenings heating their shop.
 
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Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,309
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
Nice shop. With that much thermal mass I wonder if you couldn’t skip water tanks for thermal storage when using a pellet or chip burner. Seems only the cord wood burners need more thermal storage due to short burn times.
 
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salecker

Minister of Fire
Aug 22, 2010
1,082
Northern Canada
Put lots of insulation under and around the slab,lots.
 

Case1030

Feeling the Heat
Dec 12, 2017
276
Manitoba
Put lots of insulation under and around the slab,lots.
Yes very true, we made sure lots of insulation was put down and around. (Slab was poured last week) Not cutting corners on a new shop only have one shot to do it right. We also layed down around 1.5x more infloor heat tubing than was necessary in the slab aswell thought with the big door it will help with heat recovery.
 
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Case1030

Feeling the Heat
Dec 12, 2017
276
Manitoba
Nice shop. With that much thermal mass I wonder if you couldn’t skip water tanks for thermal storage when using a pellet or chip burner. Seems only the cord wood burners need more thermal storage due to short burn times.
I think your right, probably just throw a 200-500 gallon storage just incase. Lots of salt here so we are installing a small equipment (car, truck, smaller tractors, trailer) pressure wash station and will need heated water.

If we go with cord wood what kind of storage is necessary?
 

Highbeam

Minister of Fire
Dec 28, 2006
17,309
Mt. Rainier Foothills, WA
I think your right, probably just throw a 200-500 gallon storage just incase. Lots of salt here so we are installing a small equipment (car, truck, smaller tractors, trailer) pressure wash station and will need heated water.

If we go with cord wood what kind of storage is necessary?
With pellet boilers they call them buffer tanks, the purpose isn’t to store heat as much as to prevent thermal shock. Couple hundred gallons.

The cordwood boilers for a house people say 500 is good, 1000 is better. With a shop your size it could be twice that. You really can’t have too much storage.

I’m in way over my head here. I’ve been dreaming of a wood boiler since building my 1800 sf insulated shop with foam insulation around the slab and 1800 lf of pex in the slab unused so far! Boilers are extremely expensive.
 

maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,484
Nova Scotia
I think your right, probably just throw a 200-500 gallon storage just incase. Lots of salt here so we are installing a small equipment (car, truck, smaller tractors, trailer) pressure wash station and will need heated water.

If we go with cord wood what kind of storage is necessary?
Do any heat loss calcs?

I would estimate storage size on how long you would want to be able to go between fires. Which is in turn a function of heat load.

Also depends a bit on boiler size. But minimum of 1000 gallons should cover that part of the equation. I would not go less.
 
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hedge wood

Member
Mar 1, 2009
113
Eastern NE
Sounds like you put up a nice shop. I run a Garn 2000. I have a 30X60 with 16 ceiling with in floor and also have a air handler with a coil to take the chill off. I also heat my house with it with two furnaces with coils in the duct work. My Garn is currently 10 years old and I spent about $30,000 on the whole system when I put it in and did all the work my self other than the spray foam work. I burn around 15-20 cord a year of FREE LOL wood from my farms. Year nine I had a major leak on the Garn where a weld cracked in the front and when it was all said and done I spent $3,000 dollars to get back up and running. Every year its getting tougher and tougher to find some help to put up the wood I need. Before you get too far on buying a unit that burns cord wood you better think down the road how I am going to keep this wood coming. If I were thinking about this today I wood save my money on the boiler and spent it on LP and just take the track hoe and take the trees on the farm and burn them in a brush pile. Burning cord wood is a life style that you better be ready to do.
 

Case1030

Feeling the Heat
Dec 12, 2017
276
Manitoba
Sounds like you put up a nice shop. I run a Garn 2000. I have a 30X60 with 16 ceiling with in floor and also have a air handler with a coil to take the chill off. I also heat my house with it with two furnaces with coils in the duct work. My Garn is currently 10 years old and I spent about $30,000 on the whole system when I put it in and did all the work my self other than the spray foam work. I burn around 15-20 cord a year of FREE LOL wood from my farms. Year nine I had a major leak on the Garn where a weld cracked in the front and when it was all said and done I spent $3,000 dollars to get back up and running. Every year its getting tougher and tougher to find some help to put up the wood I need. Before you get too far on buying a unit that burns cord wood you better think down the road how I am going to keep this wood coming. If I were thinking about this today I wood save my money on the boiler and spent it on LP and just take the track hoe and take the trees on the farm and burn them in a brush pile. Burning cord wood is a life style that you better be ready to do.
True also looking at pellet boilers, for the simple fill the hopper when it's nearly empty. Can get boiler grade pellets for $160 per 2200lbs. Be nice to get a unit that can burn both pellets and wood. That way the firewood I don't feel is good enough to sell (odd shapes) I can burn while using pellets majority of the time.

In the end not all to worried about putting the wood up. I mainly cut my own trees down, but I can also buy pulp wood at $100 a cord and can easily put 1.5-2 cords per hour through my processor.
 

JohnDolz

Minister of Fire
Dec 29, 2015
536
Burlington, CT
True also looking at pellet boilers, for the simple fill the hopper when it's nearly empty. Can get boiler grade pellets for $160 per 2200lbs. Be nice to get a unit that can burn both pellets and wood. That way the firewood I don't feel is good enough to sell (odd shapes) I can burn while using pellets majority of the time.

In the end not all to worried about putting the wood up. I mainly cut my own trees down, but I can also buy pulp wood at $100 a cord and can easily put 1.5-2 cords per hour through my processor.
The Effecta burns pellets and wood - need to add the pellet burner component which is an add-on. Not sure is he still reads this forum but NPAlaska runs his Effecta with both wood and pellets. Tarm can answer any questions you might have. Personally I vote with the folks that say you can never have too much storage:)
 
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maple1

Minister of Fire
Sep 15, 2011
10,484
Nova Scotia
The Effecta burns pellets and wood - need to add the pellet burner component which is an add-on. Not sure is he still reads this forum but NPAlaska runs his Effecta with both wood and pellets. Tarm can answer any questions you might have. Personally I vote with the folks that say you can never have too much storage:)
Well, there was that fellow on here who was telling people they should buy old tanker cars and bury them. For storage. _g
 

Case1030

Feeling the Heat
Dec 12, 2017
276
Manitoba
Well, there was that fellow on here who was telling people they should buy old tanker cars and bury them. For storage. _g
That would be one crazy storage. Probably take a few weeks of hard burning to charge that up fully.
 

salecker

Minister of Fire
Aug 22, 2010
1,082
Northern Canada
The crazy part would be insulating the railroad car so it wouldn't bleed heat into the ground:eek:
 
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brenndatomu

Minister of Fire
Aug 21, 2013
5,062
NE Ohio
That would be one crazy storage. Probably take a few weeks of hard burning to charge that up fully.
No doubt...those things hold between 15,000 and 35,000 gallons, depending on the model!
 

leon

Minister of Fire
The beauty of having an insulated surplus railroad tank car is that it is already insulated and you can simply set it outside without burying it and use insulated piping to and from the building. The hot water that you make has thermal mass and thermal mass is what gives you heat.

If you are are looking for a hot water heating method you should look at the www.allcanadianheater.com as you can make 140 degree water you need to heat the new building.

You can make use of Western Sub Anthracite rice coal to make hot water or steam heat using a coal stoker boiler rated for making steam like the AHS S500 coalgun or the Axeman Anderson 130S or 260S The Axeman Anderson coal stoker boilers are already certified for steam heat in their design and price and they are very efficient. The Axeman Anderson coal stoker boilers are auger fed from a coal bin.

The AHS coal stoker boilers require the end user to purchase steam certification as an added expense in the purchase. The AHS coal stoker boilers have a hopper that gravity feeds the pea coal to the rolling coal grate.

An Axeman Anderson S260 coal stoker boiler has one 4 inch tapping to feed steam to a 4 inch drop header that can be set up with as many smaller diameter steam lines to feed dry steam to each radiator quickly venting air out of the radiators and allowing dry steam to enter each radiator quickly and quickly heating the radiator(s).

Hot water or steam radiators make use of electromagnetic radiation to quickly shed heat into a space requiring it.

In order for you to make efficient use of in floor heat you need to insulate the slab and the perimeter foundation of the building.
The issue is how much tubing you need and how close the spacing of the tubing is as you need in keep in mind that you have to keep the tubing six inches away from the edge of the slab. You also need to plan on heating the perimeter aprons of the slab as well to avoid having ice and snow build up on the aprons.

You can install the tubing 6 inches apart for the entire floor and end up having 20+ plus heating zones in the floor.

The biggest advantage of having dry steam as a heat source is that you can heat the entire building as one zone with a single thermostat and avoid requiring a huge number of circulators with a huge hot water header pipe and cool water returns back to a cold water header pipe with 20+ tapping's that could return the cool water to the boiler sump at less than 140 degrees Fahrenheit which is poison to a hot water boilers steam chest due to the lower water temperature.

A single steam boiler and a common header pipe in the ceiling feeding dry steam to radiators on the buildings perimeter using refrigeration grade copper tubing to feed the low pressure steam can make a lot of heat quickly using a coal stoker.

The thing you have to keep in mind that running the in floor heating system will be problematic at 160+ degree temperatures as the Pex will be under stress from the heat AND every time the door opens you lose heat that has to be replaced.
The in floor loops have efficiency limits of 250-300 feet per loop and each loop is a separate zone so you need to keep that in mind if you intend on heating the concrete entrance apron at each door.

Using a pellet boiler entails using 2 tons of pellets for every ton of coal as far as comparing heating fuels.

If my rough math is right:
if you use the 70 foot distance for the 6 inch spacing you have one heating loop for every 4 lines rounded and that makes 140 lines of tubing along the long side of the building making 18 heating loops-9,800 feet.

If you use the 54 foot length for each loop and six inch spacing you have 6 lines rounded for each 300 foot loop PLUS the feed and return line to each heating loop-324 feet for each loop. The 54 foot width makes 6 loops for 324 feet per loop making 23 heating loops.
your going to shed a lot of heat quickly and have cold water coming back to the boiler and water below 140 degrees creates a lot of oxygen which is bad for hot water heating systems.

A new very large building of any size lends itself to steam heat out of basic simplicity because you can hang radiators and have a single steam header pipe with cross connections from the header pipe to the radiators hung on the wall.

Another option is gravity hot water heat where the boiler makes 170+ degree hot water that rises to a single top fed header pipe that feeds the hot water to perimeter radiators and then back to the boiler sump.

The top fed hot water heating system does not require the system to be bled as there is no air in the system one it is filled. An open to air expansion tank is required to be hung in the ceiling above the boiler and no circulators are required to move the hot water water.

A coal stoker boiler lends itself very well to a top fed gravity hot water system in the case of the shop with no basement as the radiators can be placed along the long walls with the return lines behind the radiators back to the boiler sump. It is simple to design using a four inch vertical riser pipe to feed the common header pipe feeding the radiators with plenty of hot water feeding the radiators and the cooler return water returning to the boiler sump to be reheated and then enter the 4 inch riser pipe to be tee'd off to 4 inch header pipe s then 3 inch pipe and then 2 inch pipe and pushed through the drop feeder lines to the perimeter radiators and then returned to the boiler sump with smaller piping coming off the bottom of each radiator that is tee'd into the return lines(the number of return lines depends on how many doors are installed in the building but the radiators will push a huge amount of heat through them the by the simple use of electromagnetic radiation shedding heat constantly into the shop.

Once the boiler comes up to temperature with all that hot water you will have a huge amount of hot water shedding heat into the workspace and you can keep the shop at 75 degrees if you wish easily using one thermostat in the shop hung on the wall.
 
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E Yoder

Feeling the Heat
Jan 27, 2017
375
Floyd, VA
I think he already has poured the floor with tubing in it, so I think that's the route he's going. It seems to be the most common heating option for large buildings up north, and works quite well. If it's insulated properly under the slab and using the correct temp water it's very efficient.
 
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leon

Minister of Fire
I hope he looks into using western coal and at least an Axeman Anderson 260S it will be les work and have a lower recovery every time a door is opened.

If anyone is interested they can wander over to youtube and type in AHS130 in montana and see an S130 heating a home in Montana and making hot water using sub bituminous Montana coal. It is a knock off of the Axeman Anderson 130S coal stoker.

The Axeman Anderson coal stoker boiler is the better unit as it is an auger fed system and uses 2 single aquastats for high limit and low limit temperatures. It also has a built in steam certification at no extra charge which will make the insurance people very happy.
 

Case1030

Feeling the Heat
Dec 12, 2017
276
Manitoba
I hope he looks into using western coal and at least an Axeman Anderson 260S it will be les work and have a lower recovery every time a door is opened.

If anyone is interested they can wander over to youtube and type in AHS130 in montana and see an S130 heating a home in Montana and making hot water using sub bituminous Montana coal. It is a knock off of the Axeman Anderson 130S coal stoker.

The Axeman Anderson coal stoker boiler is the better unit as it is an auger fed system and uses 2 single aquastats for high limit and low limit temperatures. It also has a built in steam certification at no extra charge which will make the insurance people very happy.
Saskatchewan is the closest I would be able to pickup coal and with the government the way it is not sure how much longer coal will be around for. That reason alone only looking at wood, pellets or NG (which might cost way to much to get here than its worth).
 

Case1030

Feeling the Heat
Dec 12, 2017
276
Manitoba
I think he already has poured the floor with tubing in it, so I think that's the route he's going. It seems to be the most common heating option for large buildings up north, and works quite well. If it's insulated properly under the slab and using the correct temp water it's very efficient.
Your right the slab has already been poured few weeks ago.
 

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SpaceBus

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2018
4,331
Downeast Maine
Are you still considering one of those MBTek boilers?
 

leon

Minister of Fire
I think your going to find that the western coal is going to be much less costly to burn per ton and it will
have much less ash and smoke.

Go over to you tube and search AHS S130 in Montana to see the fellow that burns Montana sub bituminous
stoker coal in his AHS S130.

I wish the Iron Fireman Company was still making coal stokers as they were able to burn the western coal with
no issues using their cast iron underfed /tuyer pot stokers.
I have attached a file showing the Axeman Anderson Anthratube boilers for you.

The Axeman Anderson Anthratube Coal Stoker Boiler uses an induced draft combustion system with a traveling coal grate the feeds the coal and also removes the spent coal ash at the same time.
 

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