New Heat Pump then Power Company Doubles kWh rates

[UpStateNY]

So here in upstate NY, NYPERG and our Central Hudson electric power company provides great rebates to install Heat Pumps. So we install Heat Pumps. Then on Feb 10, 2022 Central Hundson last month decides to increase kWh rate from 16 cents per kWh to 30 cents per kWh. You can not win. This is the ultimate bait and switch. They sold us on, don't use fosil fuels for heat, you can save money and help the environment by switching to electric heat pumps.

This is a complete loss in confidence that the electric power company is going to provide electric power at STABLE reasonable rates, which historically they have done until last month.

Has your power company had significant unprecedented rate increases like this?

 

[Mt Bob]

High energy prices were predicted almost a year ago, along with inflation, high fuel prices, and interest rates.

 

[velvetfoot]

I'm not sure you can blame CH for the bump, since they only deliver the power. Of course, you can blame them for advertising heat pumps, putting inserts in the bills, etc, but not even then, since it's the PSC that's forcing them to do it. To support the New Green Deal, don't you know.
Edit: You probably got a rebate also, right, funded by...me and others?

 

[dh1989]

I'm surprised you guys were at $0.16. The New England grid had been in the mid .20 range for a few years now. My latest bill all in (supply transmission and taxes) was $0.26/kWh.

 

[begreen]

That's a massive price increase. Seems like it would trip the breakers of the state regulators. Is this permanent or temporary due to current demand? Do they have peak demand billing or is this the same 24/7?

 

[peakbagger]

There could be lots of reasons for big utility jumps. Many utilities were partners in nuclear power plants, that are either closing down or the owners are being paid a premium to keep them running. Many utilities switched to natural gas fired power plants and natural gas had gone way up in price. Many states have put in renewable mandates and surcharge customers to incentivize renewable generation and efficiency upgrades. I have seen discussions that in Mass, these programs are about 8% increase a year regardless of fuel costs. Many folks also are confused on who they are buying their power from. Many states have customer choice on who they buy their power from. The utility charges a delivery fee but the power comes from private supplier. In some cases the utility bill for both and hands the supply fee to the third party. Those private plans usually are very tied to fuel costs unlike the standard default plan the utility charges.

The observation in Mass is either pay to install solar of pay for your neighbor to do it (on your bill). With respect to heat, the only way to beat the game is build a zero net energy home or burn local wood. Pellets are going to lag in costs but if energy costs stay high more people will burn them and the price will drift up. BTW mini splits still make a lot of sense in shoulder season but their efficiency drops substantially as the temp drops. If the power rates are high they still can be very expensive to heat with in cold weather.

I have solar and net metering with surplus so on a 30 degree night I am taking a couple of days off from running the wood boiler.

 

[stoveliker]

I wouldn't know anymore what the rates are here. Have solar since Oct. '18. Generate enough to offset all my use.

Regardless, a rate doubling is problematic.

Is this the power cost or the total cost per kWh?

 

[Woodspliter]

Yeah solar seems like natural progression after installing heat pumps. Getting my final System design this week, we'll see how many panels I can fit on the roof

 

[peakbagger]

Yeah solar seems like natural progression after installing heat pumps. Getting my final System design this week, we'll see how many panels I can fit on the roof

If you want to post what the proposed equipment will be I and possibly others will give you an opinion.

 

[Woodspliter]

So I decided to go with Rec Alpha 400 panels and the Enphase mirco inverters. It's down to how many I can fir neatly up on the roof witch I estimate is around 26 panels

 

[yooperdave]

Did something happen along the ways of energy prices? It seems that what we pay for any and all forms of energy started to increase about a year ago.

Weird.....

 

[Mt Bob]

Did something happen along the ways of energy prices? It seems that what we pay for any and all forms of energy started to increase about a year ago.

Weird.....

Ya, we got "Joe-ed"

 

[SpaceBus]

I'm surprised you guys were at $0.16. The New England grid had been in the mid .20 range for a few years now. My latest bill all in (supply transmission and taxes) was $0.26/kWh.

Our rates are not much lower here in Downeast Maine. Transmission costs are going up, and our state board of regulators approved it, despite both power companies in the state spending record amounts on ad campaigns.

Please, stop saying there is inflation. Corporations/Markets cannot boast record profits and also experience high inflation, they are antithetic concepts. Supply constraints are pushing prices up, but corporations are also increasing prices faster than needed to cover the increases. As the saying goes, "you you never let a serious crisis go to waste" and that's what is happening now with prices. Look at lumber prices, currently sitting around $1.40/bdft, and see that log prices are not going up. There was a time during the beginning of the pandemic when mills laid off most of their staff, to only see a huge spike in demand or lumber. This drove up the prices of lumber accordingly, and once the mills came back up to normal capacity the prices went back down. Now prices are back up, but logs are still plentiful and mills are making lumber, this is just price gouging by "Big Lumber" because they saw the market would bear absurd lumber prices. That's not inflation, that's just gouging. The US dollar is also fairly strong right now, especially considering everything that is going on right now.

 

[SpaceBus]

Ya, we got "Joe-ed"

You mean climate change is forcing legislation and a giant fossil fuel producer invaded another country while we are all still in the throes of a pandemic, which started under the previous administration.

 

[Mt Bob]

You mean climate change is forcing legislation and a giant fossil fuel producer invaded another country while we are all still in the throes of a pandemic, which started under the previous administration.

LOL

 

[peakbagger]

So I decided to go with Rec Alpha 400 panels and the Enphase mirco inverters. It's down to how many I can fir neatly up on the roof witch I estimate is around 26 panels

Probably worth a separate thread, if so a mod can create one.

Looks like a nice PV panel. I would recommend getting a price for at least one spare and stashing it somewhere for the long run. Panel shapes and sizes change and if one of yours gets broken in few years, finding a matching replacement is almost impossible.

Have you run PV Watts for your location?. Its a somewhat conservative but reliable estimate.

Have you added up your power bills for a few years to figure out your yearly usage?. It rarely makes sense to go to larger than needed system unless you are planning to buy an EV.

I would recommend you install at least one high quality surge suppressor on the house main panel. Midnight Solar SPDs have a great rep. Utility surges happen and a SPD should keep it from doing damage in the house. Unfortunately nothing is guaranteed from a direct lighting strike.

Take a good look at where the snow will slide in the winter. The panels will act like a metal roof anf build up snow then let loose in a big thump in day or two. It can kill or at least injure people and wipe out landscaping. Snow brakes can be installed to minimize the slide but then you lose production. There is really no way to quantify lost winter production unless you have local production data from a similar installation.

400 watt panels multiplied by 26 = 10.4 KW which will exceed the allowable back feed for 200 AMP main panel, that most likely mean a line side tap to connect to the utility unless you are real lucky and have a 200 Amp panel with 225 Amp bus. If you trim the array down a bit you should be able to just backfeed the panel. If you have a 100AMP service you definitely need a line side tap.

 

[Woodspliter]

I haven't run PV watts for my location is that a Wed site that calculates solar output? The array will be broken up into two sections thw garage and the house. The house already has a steel roof so were prepared for falling snow the garage is getting reshingled and it faces the south good for at least 14 panels. We have 200amp panel not sure the buss size but it is getting full. I installed a Siemens whole home surge suppressor when I have my heat pumps installed last year

 

[peakbagger]

If you are not aware of PV Watts, it may be worth picking up Solar Power Your Home for Dummies. Its cheap education. PV Watts is pretty self explanatory https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ By the sounds of the roof, you may need to have shading analysis done in case part of the roof gets shaded by the other roof.

Most main panels can take the double breakers to free up some space. You need space for a standard 240 Volt breaker (two slots) in the bottom row of the panel for the PV circuit. Having a bus bar rated higher than the panel is rare unless is fairly new. Some companies now sell "solar ready panels with the larger bus".

Your call on the surge suppressor. Many are designed with fairly high clamp voltages, they keep the wires from smoking but take out electronics. The Midnight Solar SPDs have lower clamp voltages so the electronics have a chance of surviving.

 

[Bad LP]

You mean climate change is forcing legislation and a giant fossil fuel producer invaded another country while we are all still in the throes of a pandemic, which started under the previous administration.

You're not serious. We had more energy than we knew what to do with until someone closed the valve.

The pending war IS NOT THE PROBLEM. Your TV is lying to you.

 

[yooperdave]

😅😂🤣

 

[SpaceBus]

You guys are funny. The sanctions against Russia are absolutely contributing to price increases. You don't even need my level of training and experience to see that. I spent six years studying Russia, the language, their history, culture, and military tactics. Russia is one of the leading fossil fuel exporters worldwide. While we may not import a ton of oil directly from them, other countries do. Those countries are now scrambling to get more oil, driving up the cost for everyone else. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you don't have to. I was sitting in a Russian classroom with a native Russian teacher the day Russia invaded Ukraine the first time in 2014. To say Russia and their war have no influence on global economies is to believe Russian propaganda.

Also, I don't have cable or watch any network news.

 

[stoveliker]

the concept of a global market versus local production seems to be hard to grasp for some.

 

[EbS-P]

Doubling cost on short notice stinks. We are regulated here. Only choice is Duke Energy. We now have a storm fee. Regulators approved an increase t their year and next. I want to say 7% each. There is no way around a global energy market. Energy supply goes down price goes up. Demand goes up so does the price. Doubling our price would add 75 -100$ a month to our bill. What really gone up over the last 10 years is out water sewer trash bill. More than doubled. Went up so much they started billing monthly to make bills appear smaller. Most of that increase to going to pay for infrastructure improvements.

Most of us that are paying close attention to the energy and environmental landscape are expecting increase coast be 100% with a letter and a month or two notice would still be shocked. Family member had an oil delivery thought she locked it in. Two Days later oil company called and said they couldn’t honor the previous price and the new price was $1.60 a gallon more. It’s just not electricity.

 

[yooperdave]

You guys are funny. The sanctions against Russia are absolutely contributing to price increases. You don't even need my level of training and experience to see that. I spent six years studying Russia, the language, their history, culture, and military tactics. Russia is one of the leading fossil fuel exporters worldwide. While we may not import a ton of oil directly from them, other countries do. Those countries are now scrambling to get more oil, driving up the cost for everyone else. If you don't believe me, that's fine, you don't have to. I was sitting in a Russian classroom with a native Russian teacher the day Russia invaded Ukraine the first time in 2014. To say Russia and their war have no influence on global economies is to believe Russian propaganda.

Also, I don't have cable or watch any network news.

the concept of a global market versus local production seems to be hard to grasp for some.

Ouch! That hurts........but not as bad as when I'm pumping gas.

I'm going to circle back to you on this one!

 

[begreen]

It sounds like the price hike is temporary, but I guess you will need to wait and see.

New York State Senate to investigate utility companies, power producers amid steep bills

The state Senate's Committee on Investigations and Government Operations is looking into skyrocketing energy bills.

www.lohud.com