New house blues

[pskerrett]

Hello everyone,

I just stumbled across this forum, and would like to ask the experts here a question regarding my new house & the issues I'm having with my wood burning fireplaces.

We purchased a 60 year old 2 story brick Georgian in Chicago this past summer. My wife & I are very pleased with just about every aspect of the house, except for the fireplaces.

The house has 2 fireplaces, one in the living room on the first floor, and the second directly below that in the finished basement. The chimney for both fireplaces is brick, and exists outside of the house along the outside wall.

This fall I built our first fire in the living room, and all was well until I went into the basement to get a beverage out of the beer-fridge, and discovered a strong smoke smell down there. The house has new windows and doors, and the fireplace in the living room does not have a combustion vent, so I immediately suspected that the fire upstairs is drawing air in from the chimney to the basement fireplace to feed itself (hoping this was the case, as it's an easy fix). So I tried a fire again, but this time with a few windows in the livingroom open for more direct ventilation. This seemed to work a bit better, but we still had new smoke smell in the basement.

So I called one of the larger fireplace maintenance companies in town to come out and have a look. They did a camera inspection & found basically all the issues I was praying would not be there..

1) The basement flue is a mess. There is evidence of some time with a missing raincap on this flue & there is a lot of debris stuck in there. The damper is broken and the tiles lining the flue are hanging off inside/are broken off.

2) The living room flue tiles are supposedly cracked & pitted with creosote stuck in between them. They claim this cannot be cleaned.

3) He was not able to perform a test to see visible light between the 2 flues, but he believes there are cracks between the 2 liners and that is causing the smoke to fall from one flue into the other and spill into the basement. Makes sense considering the behavior and the other evidence found.

So, I get about a $10,000 estimate to fix both:

-Stainless Steel liners for both flues (need to be 7" round due to a narrow chimney) ($4000 for the livingroom, $5000 for the basement. Living room is straight, basement takes a bend before it goes up).
-Electric fan cap on the roof for ventilation
-Repair any misc damage in the smoke chamber (none reported during the inspection).

Now I'm thinking.. To heck with the basement, I'll put in a ventless gas unit down there & seal the chimney off, or just seal it alltogether & make it purely decorative. Livingroom, I'd like to keep the wood burning unit there but the cost seems crazy to me.

Here are my questions:

-Is this estimate ridiculous? (I'm waiting for an appointment to get a 2nd opinion). If I were to just re-line the livingroom, what a realistic cost & is the fan cap necessary?
- I know creosote is bad, but in a masonry chimney, what is the real danger if I just plugged up the basement fireplace to take care of the smoke issue, and continue to use the livingroom one as is?


Thanks in advance folks,

Pat S.

 

[pskerrett]

SOrry, I forgot to ask one more question..

I think it would be very cool to have a woodburning insert anyway, and I'm aware of the requirement for most of the new inserts today to have a liner installed.


If I install the insert in the living room along with an approved liner (thus fixing my chimney issue), surely it can be done for less than the $5000 they are quoting me just to fix the old flue & leave the fireplace as is?

 

[JimWalshin845]

Welcome aboard,

Do you know of a good mason? When I GC'd my home back in the early 90's the cost for a whole 2 flue brick chimney and FP was $7K. So I would call a mason and see if they have any good solutions.

 

[webbie]

Dear Friend,

Before you get soaked - possibly for no reason, do a little research about smoke crossover. I invented and patented some products which reduce this. I am not saying your flues are fine, but that the smell may likely be from smoke crossover:
(broken link removed)

 

[gpcollen1]

Second and third opinions and quotes are a must prior to making any decision...

 

[Gooserider]

The estimate seems high... You should be able to use a 6" liner, no real reason to use a 7" or 8" as most modern stoves and inserts can use a 6" which is MUCH less expensive - On-line a 25' long, 6" kit is reported to be around $500, plus a couple hundred more for insulation, which you would need in this case to make it an NFPA compliant installation, as your existing chimney is in bad shape. Most of the posts I've seen for labor seem to be in the $500 - 1,000 range to put a liner down the chimney. The basement would be a little more due to the increased length, but still in the same general range. You shouldn't need the electric fan cap if the flue heights are slightly staggered. If you are a DIY person, installing a liner yourself is possible if you don't mind roof work. (This also assumes that the cost isn't including a big payoff to the [strike] mob [/strike] City Government)

Of course this is assuming that there aren't complications that you haven't mentioned, but it certainly seems like there is a lot of inflation in that estimate and additional opinions are in order.

(I also noticed you are mentioning burning as a standard fireplace - it may be to keep that function is part of why your estimate calls for the bigger liner, and the higher price - it might be a good idea to look at going for a 6" setup and an insert or stove instead, the total may be less, and you would end up with a setup that would give you heat instead of wasting it.

Gooserider

 

[mayhem]

Seems like you could buy two brand new woodstoves and install them both with double or triple wall 6" pipe running the entire length of your existing chimney for $10k.

 

[pskerrett]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

I contacted a few other dealers yesterday, and I am getting quotes on installing wood stove inserts. You guys are right, it will be cheaper to upgrade the existing fireplaces with inserts & flexible liners than it will to pay the cost of rehabbing the chimney & keeping the fireplaces as they are today.

I'd rather have the efficiency of an insert anyway, the existing fireplaces are nice for ambiance, but they never did squat to provide heat for the rooms. These are rather large fireboxes as is, 36" wide, by 30" deep, by 36" high. I figure I can find a big insert with a nice large window that will fit in nicely and still be able to provide the ambiance we have now.


I've already got 3 cords of wood (mostly oak, some cherry) stacked up under the deck, I'm looking forward to actually using it & start cutting my natural gas bills!

 

[yukiginger]

Well, now the fun really begins....! Lots more research to do here on the site. Research on all the major manufacturers' websites to see what you like and find dealers near you. A stove might be an option also, depending on your hearths. Remember that inserts definitely require fans to heat well, and some can be noisy. Do you have a way to get wood into your basement for that fireplace? It will be interesting to see what kind of package deal you can get (not many on this site probably purchased two units and liners at the same time.)

Good luck and keep us updated.

MarkG

 

[jjbaer]

Hello everyone,

I just stumbled across this forum, and would like to ask the experts here a question regarding my new house & the issues I'm having with my wood burning fireplaces.

We purchased a 60 year old 2 story brick Georgian in Chicago this past summer. My wife & I are very pleased with just about every aspect of the house, except for the fireplaces.

The house has 2 fireplaces, one in the living room on the first floor, and the second directly below that in the finished basement. The chimney for both fireplaces is brick, and exists outside of the house along the outside wall.

This fall I built our first fire in the living room, and all was well until I went into the basement to get a beverage out of the beer-fridge, and discovered a strong smoke smell down there. The house has new windows and doors, and the fireplace in the living room does not have a combustion vent, so I immediately suspected that the fire upstairs is drawing air in from the chimney to the basement fireplace to feed itself (hoping this was the case, as it's an easy fix). So I tried a fire again, but this time with a few windows in the livingroom open for more direct ventilation. This seemed to work a bit better, but we still had new smoke smell in the basement.

So I called one of the larger fireplace maintenance companies in town to come out and have a look. They did a camera inspection & found basically all the issues I was praying would not be there..

1) The basement flue is a mess. There is evidence of some time with a missing raincap on this flue & there is a lot of debris stuck in there. The damper is broken and the tiles lining the flue are hanging off inside/are broken off.

2) The living room flue tiles are supposedly cracked & pitted with creosote stuck in between them. They claim this cannot be cleaned.

3) He was not able to perform a test to see visible light between the 2 flues, but he believes there are cracks between the 2 liners and that is causing the smoke to fall from one flue into the other and spill into the basement. Makes sense considering the behavior and the other evidence found.

So, I get about a $10,000 estimate to fix both:

-Stainless Steel liners for both flues (need to be 7" round due to a narrow chimney) ($4000 for the livingroom, $5000 for the basement. Living room is straight, basement takes a bend before it goes up).
-Electric fan cap on the roof for ventilation
-Repair any misc damage in the smoke chamber (none reported during the inspection).

Now I'm thinking.. To heck with the basement, I'll put in a ventless gas unit down there & seal the chimney off, or just seal it alltogether & make it purely decorative. Livingroom, I'd like to keep the wood burning unit there but the cost seems crazy to me.

Here are my questions:

-Is this estimate ridiculous? (I'm waiting for an appointment to get a 2nd opinion). If I were to just re-line the livingroom, what a realistic cost & is the fan cap necessary?
- I know creosote is bad, but in a masonry chimney, what is the real danger if I just plugged up the basement fireplace to take care of the smoke issue, and continue to use the livingroom one as is?


Thanks in advance folks,

Pat S.

Let's say you did two installs, each with 316 Ti 6" ss and each with insulation.

2- 6" x 30 ft flex 316 Ti liner kits are $1,000
2- 6" x 30 ft 1/2" thick insulation kits are $ 660
rain cap (hinged for easy cleaning) is $ 160
install cost estimated at $ 800


total cost: $ 2,620

all costs except for install costs are here:

http://chimneylinerinc.com/index.html

far, far cry from $10,000 ..........................................

and if you only do one, maybe it will cost $ 1600