New House Needs a Wood Stove

[eabpmn]

We are closing on a new house this month. It is a Cape Cod – well insulated as it has only had propane fills in Dec. 2010 and Feb 2011 totaling 385 gallons. (Suspect it will need filled in Oct or so and will take about 500 gallons.) Propane is only used for heat. (Has an electric hot water heater – YIKES- that will get immediately changed to a Bosch hydro tankless.)

We are on the west shore of Lake Michigan in lower MI – and you can’t get much further north and still be on Lake Michigan. Interestingly the micro-climate here on the shore is quite mild because of the 300-400 ft high sand dunes. I grow roses that shouldn’t survive north of southern Virginia – growing zone is a 6 a or b while 20 miles east of us it is a frigid zone 5. Definitely not the MI climate experienced by the rest of the state. Big shock if we get a day where the high is in the mid-teens in the winter.

What we do have it the wind roaring off the Lake. And I do mean roaring. This house in only about 5 mile inshore as the crow flies AND at the top of hill coming up from the Lake. The Lake is directly due west of us – the direction the front of the house faces. Do have some excellent mature evergreens as a wind break from the Lake

Now I have uploaded a photo of the floor plan - see 2nd post in thread. It is around 1540 sq feet.
We have had wood stoves before – some were supplemental but could do all heating and others were the heat source. All of them were conventional non-cat cast iron except one which I refer to as “The Pellet Stove From Hell.†Wood will be delivered by very reliable wood suppliers who get it from the surrounding area including the US National Park. Should be maple, ash, some oak and maybe cherry (this is the largest cherry producing area in the US.)

The wood stove is intended to be able to supply 85 -100% of the heat. To get the heat upstairs (see the diagram) I will probably need to do 3 floor vents like the ones in my great-grandparents and grandparents homes and in the homes of the Old Amish that I lived among for a time.
I have narrowed the list to the following which are listed with their data I would rather over-size the stove by at least 20% than not have enough stove.


Hearthstone – Heritage Soapstone 1900 sq ft 50000 btu
Hearthstone – Phoenix Soapstone 2000 60000
Hearthstone – Mansfield Soapstone 2500 80000
Hearthstone Shelburne cast iron 1800 50000
Hearthstone – Bennington Cast iron 2200 70000
Jotul F500 cast iron 2000 70000
Lopi Liberty cast iron 1500 -2500 73400
Vermont Casting – Defiant 2 in 1 cast iron 2400 75000
Woodstock – Progress hybrid soapstone Est 1600 - 2350 80000

Yes I have already spoken to Woodstock about it and the terms of sale on the intro and shipping




As you can see the list leans to (a) conventional non-cat and (b) soapstone. The soapstone stoves have been widely used for decades by the Old Amish I knew –figure that is a pretty good recommendation since they don’t fool about with frou-frou unreliable on essentials.
Now my reservations about the different stoves are this:

(1) Soapstone – great heat, solid workhorses BUT they sound as if they can be bloody touchy about how hot they are allowed to get. This one wants only a temperature of not more than XXX but that one will allow a temperature of a 100 degrees more…… and if they don’t like the heat, the stone breaks. That sounds a little problematic to me …. unless those temperatures are pretty much what a cast iron can take and you don’t have to keep taking the soapstone’s temperature.

(Note: I got really really spoiled by my Waterford wood stoves from back in the ‘90s (EPA and the first secondary burn stoves) that you couldn’t hurt with doing anything less than shoving plastic explosives in them and which burned anything you feed them and forgave all kinds of temperature fluctuations and just kept going and going and going….)

(2) Cast Iron – that 2 of the Hearthstone, the Jotul, the Lopi and the Vermont Castings. The Hearthstones, Jotul and Lopi are pretty much like everything I have always had. The Vermont Castings is that 2 in 1 and I’ll have that Cat out of there in a heartbeat. IF VC made one without the cat in that size, I would have that one on the list instead of 2 in 1. (From what I have read over the years, the VC cats have a seriously nasty habit of making you call for parts and see below on my reservations about cats in general) Interestingly VC is now doing all the stove body casting for Jotul and other…..

(3) Catalytics…… yes, I have read (endlessly) that they are not the disasters they were years ago. Yes, I have read the claims that they aren’t that hard to run so long as you

(a) Only give them certain wood and exactly what they want
(b) Hover over them on start up with small fires and fussing and getting them going
(c) Don’t let them burn too hot too fast
And on and on and on…… and then in addition over the years I keep seeing the threads on this forum titled “Help Did I Ruin My New Cat Stove By (fill in the blank.) Not consistent with my definition of ‘easy to operate.’

The only cat stove to make the list is the new Woodstock – the bigger one. They arranging for some of their local customers to talk to me and show me their Woodstocks. Love the idea of that stove if we go with soapstone – have reservations about the catalytic part.

Cont'd below in another post.

 

[eabpmn]

(4) Managing the stove.

(a) First I D-O N-O-T hover. I D-O N-O-T put up with any piece of equipment (besides this irritating new HP laptop with Office Pro 2010….) that is touchy, finicky, fussy or ‘sensitive.’ That means I am not going to obsess over whether the wood has been dried 35 .87 months vs 18.694 months. I am not going to stand there peering at a thermostat to time the exact moment when the stove need something done. (Hell’s bells, I don’t do that when I make Grand Marnier Crème Brulee with Crème Anglaise sauce which gets routinely tossed together by ‘that amount of ingredient looks right’!)

(b) I am home these days – retired early – and will happily get up from the recliner every 2 -4 hours and feed the stove during the day and then fill it, damp it down and let it go all night. On the other hand, while I have the time, I do not always have the energy to be after it consistently – as in every hour or so or standing over it to get it started. Massive orthopedic injury – chronic pain patient – pain gets to the point in between the pain procedures that I have to sit and think about whether I have the energy to make a cup of coffee. That also affects moving the wood – a job that gets delegated to hubby or my Service Dog who can drag it in on his sled. The feel of wood heat actually helps the injury and chronic pain – much better than the drafts of forced air for me. Ergo – the wood stove and it will cut the heating costs by about 31%

(c) And I’ll save the Blaze King fans the time. NO sheet metal stoves. Period.

(d) On the other hand now we do really maintain equipment. My go-to-the-beach-dog hauling-grocery-shopping-garden-center station wagon is legendary around here for being almost old enough to vote but still having a perfect body and running as if new; and I only bought a new laptop because my HP dealer said ‘Enough with little fixes to your laptop. Its 9 years old and I don’t care if it still works – get a new one!... ah well sometimes you have to get rid of things that still work… So I have no problem with checking gaskets, hauling out the stove cement, getting after it with stove paint, checking and rechecking the chimney and other routine maintenance chores. I do not expect maintenance free – I just don’t want something that wants more attention everyday than my real kitty cats or makes me keep the parts supplier on auto dial or requires calling the manufacturer for the first 2 weeks to make it run.

The floor plan is below.

Now given the house floor plan, energy usage, and my ground rules for what I will or will not put up with in the way of demands for attention from a wood stove, any thoughts on the ones on the list? Any ones I have not considered that meet these criteria?

LOL! Wow that turned out to be long – just wanted to lay out all the facts…

 

[begreen]

The Jotul Oslo and Heartstone Mansfield seem like a good fit. The Lopi Liberty is a steel stove, sorry. But I would not rule out steel/cast iron hybrids to give you the best of both worlds. If you choose to look a them I would look at the Jotul Rangeley and the Pacific Energy Alderlea T6 for your home. The Alderlea in particular fits your request for a simple, easy to operate stove. A Woodstock Fireview would also work, though a little more complex. Can't comment on the new hybrid stove as we don't have any experience with it and I can't suggest it on it's maiden voyage given your condition. Simple sounds like the best plan.

 

[eabpmn]

begreen

Oh drat on the Lopi. Local dealer said to think about them, mentioned that one and I popped on the website and pulled the specs..... guess the dealer dforgot my 'no steel' and we then were only discussing soapstone and cast iron stoves.

I looked hard at the Woodstock Fireview because the comments on this site were so incredibly favorable. But I was put off by its ratings. 900 - 1600 sq ft and only 55,000 btu. This house is at the limits of its ratings and I have to push hot air up. I talked to Woodstock and they said that while they have had customers report they heated more than that with a Fireview, they weren't comfotable telling me that it would work as I would be asking it to do 100% of its rated abilities. I know they have the 6 month return guarantee but all that work getting it in......and finding it has to be pulled out...... it weighs over 4 1/2 times what I do and nearly 3 times what my husband does. Getting it in would be bad enough but taking it out and then having to put something else in only 6 months later???? Yikes!

Looked at the ALderlea website. Interesting. Cast iron stove with a steel box inside. There is (1) dealer within 50 miles. I'll have to give them a call. The other stove dealer here is the Jotul, Hearthstone. Vermont C and Lopi dealer - the one who mentioned the Lopi....have to call him back and talk to him about the Jotul version similar to the Alderlea

Thanks!

Problem is that what I REALLY want is another of my Waterfords.....sigh....and short of going to England, buying one and shipping it back or a dealer having a NIB in buried some warehouse, that isn't happening.

 

[Woody Stover]

First off, welcome to the forums!
Don't let the cat's "complexity" sour you on them. All you do is toss in dry wood and give the fire some air. After a while, you'll know about when the stove is hot enough to engage the combustor, which you can confirm with a stove top thermo when you get up to cut back the air (gotta do that with a non-cat, too.) Stone stoves are slower to come up to temp, though. I kind of enjoy hovering, checking flue temps and seeing how fast the stove is coming up to temp. But a lot of that is because I'm running a new stove...
That said, it sounds like you may well end up with a non-cat, and BG offers some great suggestions. The steel firebox negates the need to rebuild the stove every 8-10 years to fix air leaks, which is necessary on cast and soapstone stoves. All you have to do is occasionally replace door or ash pan gaskets. Very simple. The Rangeley has top-loading which is nice...no squatting or kneeling to load. Top-loading is fun, as well!

 

[Blue Vomit]

(4) Managing the stove.

(a) First I D-O N-O-T hover. I D-O N-O-T put up with any piece of equipment (besides this irritating new HP laptop with Office Pro 2010….) that is touchy, finicky, fussy or ‘sensitive.’ That means I am not going to obsess over whether the wood has been dried 35 .87 months vs 18.694 months. I am not going to stand there peering at a thermostat to time the exact moment when the stove need something done. (Hell’s bells, I don’t do that when I make Grand Marnier Crème Brulee with Crème Anglaise sauce which gets routinely tossed together by ‘that amount of ingredient looks right’!)

Welcome...
Jotul Oslo 500 has an easy, bulletproof, simple, reputation as a great heater.

 

[eabpmn]

Thanks for the suggestions. Now here is what I have sorted out so far. The stoves I had included on “The List†are all in the “should live 10-20 years†group and considered the ‘good looking’ sort -- meaning I’m playing in the $2200 -3100 price range. All but 1 are non-cats – simpler to operate and easier to maintain.

I took performance factors one at a time for each stove, compared them and then came up with overall rankings. The data was what the manufacturers list. I did three types of comparisons: (a) $$$ cost of stove per BTU (b) purchase cost + claimed sq ft heated + BTU + efficiency + burn time and (c) purchase cost + BTU + efficiency + burn time (and leaving out the claimed sq footage)

These stoves made the top 5 out of 9 stoves 3 out of 3 times:

Alderlea TF 5 – interior steel burn chamber has a lifetime warranty so I’m fine with that

Jotul F 50 – website states 5 year limited. If steel burn chamber does not have a lifetime warranty, it is off the list. Find that out after the holiday.

Vermont Castings Defiant 2 in 1

Hearthstone Bennington (dealer has one on sale for $1900)

These stoves were in the top 5 2 out of 3 times

Jotul 500

Hearthstone Bennington (full price – if under $2600, then in top 5 3 times even at full price.)

One stove made the top 5 only 1 time – the new Woodstock Progress and that was based upon $$$ cost of stove per BTU which is ONLY good at the intro sale price. (Based upon their pricing history per BTU, I would guess full price on this will be over $4000….. and it would go to the bottom of the $$$/BTU ranking – way at the bottom)

The soapstones on the list were the (a) Hearthstone Phoenix (2) Hearthstone Heritage and (2) Woodstock Progress. Looking at the stoves on $$$ cost per BTU produced, the soapstones just get killed. They average 50% MORE in cost for every BTU produced than do the cast iron. Beautiful stoves. Solid stoves. Price is way out of line to their heating capacity - or, to put more succinctly, their numbers don’t work when compared to similar quality stoves which would last the same time. (Now if someone can should me that soapstone stoves last 50% longer than cast iron, the analysis will change.)

So has anyone lived with any of the five stoves that made the top 5 at least 2 times? What is your experience with them? Operating? Repairs/breakdowns? (And thanks for the input Blue V)

In December 2010 – January 2011, this house used 285 gallons of propane which would be 26,505,000 BTUs or 427,500 BTUs a day or >18000 BTUs an hour. Do I really need a 70,000 BTU stove? A 60,000?
Thoughts on stove sizing?

 

[My Oslo heats my home]

Welcome to the Forums...I gotta say you are definitely doing your homework! My addition to this discussion is YES on the Jotul Oslo, I'm a big fan (and proud owner)

 

[leeave96]

The new Woodstock PH might be a good stove for you. The Jutol Oslo or the F600 might also be good for you - bullet proof. I think you'd like the PE Alderlea stove and it's convection too which might help you move the heat around too. Forget PE's lifetime warranty. My guess is that you will NEVER have a problem with the Alderlea, but based on posts on this forum, if you do - good luck. But again, I think they are a fine stove and especially like their looks. The VC Defiant 2in1 may work for you too, but be aware that they have had some black days in the past and hopefully these are behind them. One thing about the Defiant 2in1 is that you can experiment with the cat. I think once you get the hang of using a stove with one, you will find it simple to operate and a great asset to your clean burning stove.

With regard to maintaining your stove. One of those dreaded steel stoves are the trick for not having to rebuile way down the road - like say with a cast iron stove. So with that said, you could consider the Alderlea - which is a steel stove with a cast iron jacket or perhaps a Jotul Rangeley which is a steel stove with an optional cast iron jacket. One thing you may like the Rangeley (and the VC Defiant) is top loading.

Good luck with your purchase.
Bill

 

[eabpmn]

Welcome to the Forums...I gotta say you are definitely doing your homework! My addition to this discussion is YES on the Jotul Oslo, I'm a big fan (and proud owner)

YOu outghta see my spreadsheets on this stuff LOL! I'm an econ wonk and it all comes down to (a) the numbers on cost effectiveness (price, heat, longevity etc) and (b) quality of customer service.

____

The new Woodstock PH might be a good stove for you. The Jutol Oslo or the F600 might also be good for you - bullet proof. I think you’d like the PE Alderlea stove and it’s convection too which might help you move the heat around too. Forget PE’s lifetime warranty. My guess is that you will NEVER have a problem with the Alderlea, but based on posts on this forum, if you do - good luck. ... The VC Defiant 2in1 may work for you too, but be aware that they have had some black days in the past..... .

With regard to maintaining your stove. One of those dreaded steel stoves are the trick for not having to rebuile way down the road - like say with a cast iron stove. So with that said, you could consider the Alderlea - which is a steel stove with a cast iron jacket or perhaps a Jotul Rangeley which is a steel stove with an optional cast iron jacket. One thing you may like the Rangeley (and the VC Defiant) is top loading.
leeave96

I haven't xxxxed the Progress Hybrid off completely. It made the list because the $$$$/btu are comparable to the Defiant and Hearthstone Bennington - BUT that is only because of the special introductory sale. It scored the highest on BTUS (maybe too high for the house?) and the highest on the burn time. It is the most expensive of all those on the list - and that hurts it in the comparisons

I had talked to Woodstock about it. Nice nice people - they are contacting their customers near me so I can talk to them. We were trying to figure out delivery - closest terminal they ship into is 2 hours EACH WAY! Small town here and I would have to coax either the grocery store or the auto parts store in or lumber yard into letting it be delivered there ----- and then I have to figure out how to get a stove that way way bigger than my husband and I put together to the house.

Begreen had a point that it is new technology with combining the cat and secondary burner. What works on paper in in lab tests may or may not work once you get it home. Not sure I want to be a guinea pig for it. I assume that if something can go wrong it will and plan accordingly and that applies to new technology and companies who don't support their prodcut (Aderlea???).

Alderlea - very interesting about the lack of service. I'll go back through the threads. Local dealer is very nice and she is really helpful but if the company doesn't stand behind it...... Customer service is a HUGE thing for me. There was a 1 year old Quadfire on Craigslist here and I looked up the stove. I do not do business with any company that doesn't put their phone number on their website. I ship my dog and cat food in - both made by small boutique companies where I can pick up the phone and call and talk not to the receptionist but the head of research who is a vet and PhD in biochemistry.

Defiant - yeah Vermont Castings has gone up and down over the past 30 -40 years. It is on the list but I will so some 'testing' of the customer service by calling and asking for its burn times without the cat (specs only list it with the cat.)

Don't mind rebuilding my cast iron stove every 8 - 10 years as it is only an afternoon or so. I only object to a stove that wants me to hover and fuss everyday.

I put steel stoves in the same category as polyester and McDonalds. I don't wear polyester (or other fake fabric), I don't eat at Mc'Ds (what they do to purported food is obscene) and I don't have cheap throwaway sheet metal stoves in the house. To quote from the movie "When Harry Met SallY', I am "high maintenance" LOL!

 

[MarkinNC]

I believe the Lopi Leydon is a cast iron stove. The dealer may have been honest with you in that regard.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on the steel plate stoves. I think they are the toughest, most abuseable stoves built with VERY long service lives, hands down. Perhaps you can research that issue because it looks like you are ruling out some good running stoves out of, frankly, habit.

I hear the Jotul 600 is a great running unit with long burn times as well.

I personally think the secret to a good running stove is a good chimney. Again I post this with due respect. I am trying to get you looking at a couple of different angles. I am pretty new at this too.

 

[eabpmn]

I believe the Lopi Leydon is a cast iron stove. The dealer may have been honest with you in that regard.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on the steel plate stoves. I think they are the toughest, most abuseable stoves built with VERY long service lives, hands down. Perhaps you can research that issue because it looks like you are ruling out some good running stoves out of, frankly, habit.

I hear the Jotul 600 is a great running unit with long burn times as well.

I personally think the secret to a good running stove is a good chimney. Again I post this with due respect. I am trying to get you looking at a couple of different angles. I am pretty new at this too.

The Lopi LEYDON is a cast iron stove - the dealer had misspoken and said Lopi LIBERTY....

I had put the Leydon in the formulas I ran (see above) andit got its backside kicked in comparsion on the efficency rating - only a 70%.

To qualify for the 2011 Federal. Tax credit ths e stove has to have at minimum a 75% efficency. I'm not going to pass up $300 unless the stove is priced far lower than it is. I would give up the $300 tax credit AND burn more for years to come than I would in the more efficent stoves like Jotul Oslo 500 (81% efficency.) That would be 13 -15% more wood in a year to generate the same heat.

We can agreee to disagree about steel vs cast stoves. Never seen a steel stove make 20 years. Have had cast iron that did it easily. Maybe steel are better these days but I know the cast iron holds up. (So does the soapstone but they are way way higher on the purchase $$$ per BTUs produced. ) And hubby would say getting me to change would take an act of God! I don't buy "new" clothes so much as replace the 100% pima oxford cloth button down collar Brooks Brothers shirts with one that is identical from brooks Bro .......LOL!

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Wow! Wow!! Wow Where do I start? Maybe the thought that you've perhaps spoken to some folks who have given you some.....not so good information.

The very thing that strikes me most is that you are afraid of a cat stove. Also your comments, such as: "However, in the end, after talking with some owners of the Woodstock Fireview and knowing they are a top notch company, we bought the Fireview. That even after we had made up our minds to not get a stove with a catalyst in it."

And, "I have read the claims that they aren’t that hard to run so long as you

(a) Only give them certain wood and exactly what they want
(b) Hover over them on start up with small fires and fussing and getting them going
(c) Don’t let them burn too hot too fast
And on and on and on…… and then in addition over the years I keep seeing the threads on this forum titled “Help Did I Ruin My New Cat Stove By (fill in the blank.) Not consistent with my definition of ‘easy to operate.’ "

And, "...they sound as if they can be bloody touchy about how hot they are allowed to get This one wants only a temperature of not more than XXX but that one will allow a temperature of a 100 degrees more…… and if they don’t like the heat, the stone breaks."


And, "(4) Managing the stove.

(a) First I D-O N-O-T hover. I D-O N-O-T put up with any piece of equipment (besides this irritating new HP laptop with Office Pro 2010….) that is touchy, finicky, fussy or ‘sensitive.’ That means I am not going to obsess over whether the wood has been dried 35 .87 months vs 18.694 months. I am not going to stand there peering at a thermostat to time the exact moment when the stove need something done.

(b) I am home these days – retired early – and will happily get up from the recliner every 2 -4 hours and feed the stove during the day and then fill it, damp it down and let it go all night. On the other hand, while I have the time, I do not always have the energy to be after it consistently – as in every hour or so or standing over it to get it started. Massive orthopedic injury – chronic pain patient – pain gets to the point in between the pain procedures that I have to sit and think about whether I have the energy to make a cup of coffee. That also affects moving the wood – a job that gets delegated to hubby or my Service Dog who can drag it in on his sled. The feel of wood heat actually helps the injury and chronic pain – much better than the drafts of forced air for me. Ergo – the wood stove and it will cut the heating costs by about 31%."

And, "...have reservations about the catalytic part."

And, "All but 1 are non-cats – simpler to operate and easier to maintain."

And, "I only object to a stove that wants me to hover and fuss everyday."


I won't comment much on the other stoves except to say that the Lopi Leyden is one stove we looked at and thought about real strongly. However, some of your ideas reflect some of the same things we looked at before buying our last stove, which happens to be a Woodstock Fireview. Before answering the rest of your questions I will state that when we installed the Fireview, at first we had decided we did not want a cat stove, we found it amazingly easy to accept delivery, simple to move around (piano dolly), easy to operate (a child could do it easily), a very beautiful stove which turns into a beautiful piece of furniture during the summer when not burning and the very best thing is that we now burn only half the amount of wood we used to and stay a lot warmer too. And perhaps I should mention how clean burning this stove is. We've used it now as our sole heating unit and have cleaned our chimney one time and got about a cup of soot....no creosote.

But to answer the things in italic above:

Yes, we too had heard bad things about the cat stoves and wanted no part of them. Long story short, we now own a cat stove and love it.

I don't understand the part about giving them certain wood and exacty what they want. If this is meant that only certain wood will burn in this stove, that is wrong. The only wood it needs is the same wood you will put in other stoves and all EPA stoves want good dry wood. Warning: You may not get this from a wood seller even if he says the wood is "seasoned and ready to burn." And to give the stove exactly what they want. Not really sure what you are trying to say there. Half loads? Full loads? Doesn't matter.

You don't want to stand over them and fuss, etc. Neither do I. The only time this might fit into what you are saying is when starting with a cold stove. Even then you do not have to stand over them nor fuss with them. It is just a matter of the stove top reaching the proper temperature to engage the cat. By engaging, that means moving one lever in one direction; up.

Sorry I have to break this up into more than one post because there is a limit on space.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

So what about reloading the stove when you are burning full time? Nothing to it. As you know, before opening the firebox door on any stove it is good practice to open the draft fully and wait a minute or two. Same with the soapstones and cat stoves. When we open the draft full we at the same time turn that little lever for the bypass from the up position to the down position. Then after loading the stove, again it is good practice to leave the draft fully open for a bit to get the fire established. I like to see some of the wood charred before starting to close the draft. When we dial the draft down we also move that other little lever that turns on the cat. The time between reload and dialing down the draft can and will vary depending upon the fuel and weather conditions.

What matters most on any stove is the fuel you put in it. Just like with your car, if you put poor fuel in it you will get poor results. Buy good fuel and the car will run as it is supposed to.



On the 6 month return and receiving the stove for installation. Yes, it is some work getting the stove in and then if you had to, also to take it out. It is a heavy stone for sure. What we did was talk to a local business we frequent. He has a fork lift and happily agreed to accept delivery for us....free of charge. The only stipulation was that we pick it up that same day. No problem. We were notified the day it was to be delivered. I picked up the stove about 30 minutes after they received it and they put it onto our little trailer for us. I am no longer a strong man either and also no longer a young man. However, I was able to get this thing off the trailer and onto the dolly all by myself. Had it not been in the crate I would not have done that but in the crate it was relatively easy.

When it came time to move into the house, 2 neighbors helped. I put down 2 planks. We wrapped a rope around the crate and one man on top, one on the bottom and me making sure it stayed straight so as not to fall off the planks. We were all amazed how easy it was. We did not uncrate the stove until it was in front of the heart. Before moving it onto the hearth we removed the top lid (very heavy), firebricks and the firebox door. This lightened it a lot. Those things are simple to remove too.

I know they have the 6 month return guarantee but all that work getting it in…...and finding it has to be pulled out…... it weighs over 4 1/2 times what I do and nearly 3 times what my husband does.

One more thing that might come up is maintenance. The cat needs cleaning occasionally. That takes me from 2 to 5 minutes but is easy enough that a child could do it. I simply use heavy gloves and lift the cat out, brush it with an old paint brush and put it back in. That is it.

We've burned our Fireview for 4 full winters now and could not be happier. Any snag anyone runs into the company can and will help. Also, should you decide on the new Woodstock stove, I would not fear this being a new stove; not with this company's track record. Besides, with any new product they will want to fix anything fast to preserve that particular stove's reputation besides their own reputation, which happens to be at the very top. You can't go wrong.

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

Man, I wish I still had my spreadsheets from when I was researching woodstoves! Wait until you have to build a hearthpad for the sucker.... (note: just give up and find some Micore. Trust me on this.) And I'm with you on the cats. Maybe after I feel like I've gotten the hang of this and need a second stove for some reason, I'll check it out, but for my first stove I just wanted a box I could make a fire in, the end, goodnight.

I too looked down my nose at steel stoves and wanted a solid cast iron stove- isn't that what stoves are supposed to be made of? What is this steel nonsense?! Then I found out about the Englander stove I have now, which was $500 DELIVERED, and couldn't turn that down! I have a much much smaller space than you, so my particular model wouldn't suit your needs, but steel IS very durable, heats up like the dickens, and I honestly cannot really tell the difference in looks and performance between. After about two weeks of burning 24/7 and obsessing over the temp and realizing that even with 3 splits going full-tilt I wasn't even close to overfiring the thing, I stopped checking. Had very very little creosote in my chimney after the shoulder season, too, and that was my first year burning! It's also one that you couldn't screw up unless you put some TNT in the firebox, and even then I think it would probably be the only thing left standing in the house...

Anyway, I am really happy with the Englander company- they have really great customer service, are a completely US company, and a one of the designers is a member here and a lot of people here speak highly of them. This is the website if you want to check them out: http://www.englanderstoves.com/wood_stoves.html
The 13 or 30 NC would suit you nicely. (Okay, done shilling for steel stoves, and no, I don't work for Englander, just defending my itty bitty steel box.)

If you're looking at Jotuls and Hearthstones, I'm guessing you aren't on that small of a budget. Personally, I've never heard a bad thing about Jotuls. Soapstone IS pretty finicky about maintenance- not that it's hard, it's just a matter of keeping up with it. It's like the difference between a Honda Accord that you can drive until the wheels fall off and not have to do hardly anything to it besides put gas in it and change the oil, versus a persnickity supercar that needs to be checked out every 500 miles. I agree that they aren't superior enough in heating performance to be worth the extra money. I would just up and pull the trigger and get the Jotul. Cheaper, easier, and it's cast iron.

~Rose

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Rose, perhaps you could tell us all the secret about what is finicky about soapstone stoves? Same with the cat stoves. Please enlighten me. Perhaps there is something I've been missing these past 4 years. Also, please tell me about the maintenance you speak of.

I apologize if this came across wrong as I mean no sarcasm whatsoever. It is just that I really want to know about what makes them finicky. Also, have you ever run one of these new epa, soapstone, cat stoves?

 

[BrowningBAR]

Man, I wish I still had my spreadsheets from when I was researching woodstoves! Wait until you have to build a hearthpad for the sucker.... (note: just give up and find some Micore. Trust me on this.) And I'm with you on the cats. Maybe after I feel like I've gotten the hang of this and need a second stove for some reason, I'll check it out, but for my first stove I just wanted a box I could make a fire in, the end, goodnight.

I too looked down my nose at steel stoves and wanted a solid cast iron stove- isn't that what stoves are supposed to be made of? What is this steel nonsense?! Then I found out about the Englander stove I have now, which was $500 DELIVERED, and couldn't turn that down! I have a much much smaller space than you, so my particular model wouldn't suit your needs, but steel IS very durable, heats up like the dickens, and I honestly cannot really tell the difference in looks and performance between. After about two weeks of burning 24/7 and obsessing over the temp and realizing that even with 3 splits going full-tilt I wasn't even close to overfiring the thing, I stopped checking. Had very very little creosote in my chimney after the shoulder season, too, and that was my first year burning! It's also one that you couldn't screw up unless you put some TNT in the firebox, and even then I think it would probably be the only thing left standing in the house...

Anyway, I am really happy with the Englander company- they have really great customer service, are a completely US company, and a one of the designers is a member here and a lot of people here speak highly of them. This is the website if you want to check them out: http://www.englanderstoves.com/wood_stoves.html
The 13 or 30 NC would suit you nicely. (Okay, done shilling for steel stoves, and no, I don't work for Englander, just defending my itty bitty steel box.)

If you're looking at Jotuls and Hearthstones, I'm guessing you aren't on that small of a budget. Personally, I've never heard a bad thing about Jotuls. Soapstone IS pretty finicky about maintenance- not that it's hard, it's just a matter of keeping up with it. It's like the difference between a Honda Accord that you can drive until the wheels fall off and not have to do hardly anything to it besides put gas in it and change the oil, versus a persnickity supercar that needs to be checked out every 500 miles. I agree that they aren't superior enough in heating performance to be worth the extra money. I would just up and pull the trigger and get the Jotul. Cheaper, easier, and it's cast iron.

~Rose

I'm with Backwoods Savage on this. I'm not sure what you mean?

 

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

I've only ever burned in my stove, so you're right, I don't know the complete in's and out's. Just from my reading and research and talking to owners of them, they had a steeper learning curve. Soapstone is more sensitive to temperature highs and lows and have a much higher price point compared to cast iron or especially steel stoves in the same size/BTU range, and cats have to be cleaned and maintained, plus the cat stoves were more expensive. For my heating needs (small budget, small house, new burner) neither would give me a whole lot more bang for my buck as far as heat output or performance as far as burning cleaner or longer.

This is just from talking to wood stove people- the local woodstove dealer I first went to, who sold stone, cast iron, and steel, cat and non-cat, and recommended I get a steel stove, the hearth installer who concurred, people on here who first pointed me towards the Englander for the same reasons, and my own experience with my nice simple $500 little steel box. But, at the end of the day, they're ALL just boxes you make a fire in, and if you use them correctly, they all do the job of making your house warm.

~Rose

 

[BrowningBAR]

I've only ever burned in my stove, so you're right, I don't know the complete in's and out's. Just from my reading and research and talking to owners of them, they had a steeper learning curve. Soapstone is more sensitive to temperature highs and lows and have a much higher price point compared to cast iron or especially steel stoves in the same size/BTU range, and cats have to be cleaned and maintained, plus the cat stoves were more expensive. For my heating needs (small budget, small house, new burner) neither would give me a whole lot more bang for my buck as far as heat output or performance as far as burning cleaner or longer.

This is just from talking to wood stove people- the local woodstove dealer I first went to, who sold stone, cast iron, and steel, cat and non-cat, and recommended I get a steel stove, the hearth installer who concurred, people on here who first pointed me towards the Englander for the same reasons, and my own experience with my nice simple $500 little steel box. But, at the end of the day, they're ALL just boxes you make a fire in, and if you use them correctly, they all do the job of making your house warm.

~Rose

As far as "more sensitive to temperature highs and lows", that's not true. The Heritage I have is the simplest of the four stoves I've owned... and I bought it for a grand (used). In regards to a Cat Stove, it just isn't needed for most users. I like them, but I have a certain need for them. Apart from that, you are correct, they are just boxes with fire in them.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

I've only ever burned in my stove, so you're right, I don't know the complete in's and out's. Just from my reading and research and talking to owners of them, they had a steeper learning curve. Soapstone is more sensitive to temperature highs and lows and have a much higher price point compared to cast iron or especially steel stoves in the same size/BTU range, and cats have to be cleaned and maintained, plus the cat stoves were more expensive. For my heating needs (small budget, small house, new burner) neither would give me a whole lot more bang for my buck as far as heat output or performance as far as burning cleaner or longer.

This is just from talking to wood stove people- the local woodstove dealer I first went to, who sold stone, cast iron, and steel, cat and non-cat, and recommended I get a steel stove, the hearth installer who concurred, people on here who first pointed me towards the Englander for the same reasons, and my own experience with my nice simple $500 little steel box. But, at the end of the day, they're ALL just boxes you make a fire in, and if you use them correctly, they all do the job of making your house warm.

~Rose

Rose, please do not take this wrong but you've burned wood in only one stove and have had some problems doing that. Then you heard some bad things from someone else and have based your opinion on that.

To be very honest, we too had heard bad things, especially about the cat stoves and had no intention of buying a stove with a cat. I won't tell the whole story as that might take a book, but we did end up with a cat stove and it also happens to be a soapstone stove. We have found absolutely none of the things you stated to be true about our stove. Maybe some stoves do fit that category but I have never found one. I say that and must tell you I've been in hundreds of homes where they heat with wood. I've also learned that when someone says something negative about a particular stove to first beware; was that something they did? Was it something they heard? etc., etc.

Many times I've got something that has had a few people say negative things about but found they did the job they were intended to do. I guess it is the same with our stove as we've found it extremely easy to operate and "maintain." These are simple enough that a child can use them and as you have discovered, the fuel you put in that stove can make the stove look good or bad. Methinks 90% or much more of all problems people have with burning wood can be traced back to poor fuel.

 

[eabpmn]

Wow! Wow!! Wow Where do I start? Maybe the thought that you've perhaps spoken to some folks who have given you some.....not so good information.

The very thing that strikes me most is that you are afraid of a cat stove. Also your comments, such as: "However, in the end, after talking with some owners of the Woodstock Fireview and knowing they are a top notch company, we bought the Fireview. That even after we had made up our minds to not get a stove with a catalyst in it."

quote]

TOo bad you didn't bother to read what I wrote. I NEVER - as in N-E-V-E-R - NEVER said " Also your comments, such as: “However, in the end, after talking with some owners of the Woodstock Fireview and knowing they are a top notch company, we bought the Fireview. That even after we had made up our minds to not get a stove with a catalyst in it.†(Italics are YOURS!) I NEVER said anything like that.

ANd you obviously completly missed the part about WOODSTOCK saying the Fireview was TOO SMALL for what I need it to do in this climate .

That leaves the new one they are just introducing to the market where they have combined technologies. I don't really care to be a guinea pig for real world testing - not at the price and the amount of inconvenience of getting it here. There hasn't been many prodcuts introduced in the past 3 decades that ahven't had some kind of problme in the early stages.

Bad advice over the years....oh yeh, guess LEHMAN'S hardware deosn't know squat - they are only "The" premier supplier of non-electric items and woodstoves to the Amish.

On the 6 month return and receiving the stove for installation. Yes, it is some work getting the stove in and then if you had to, also to take it out. It is a heavy stone for sure. What we did was talk to a local business we frequent. He has a fork lift and happily agreed to accept delivery for us….free of charge. The only stipulation was that we pick it up that same day.

FIne then you just drive on out here and YOU FIND someone to take delivery and use their forklift. IT is NOT GONNA HAPPEN! There are simply not the retail facilities here that can or will do that. (Went through that getting a clothes processor shipped in that had to be delviered to a commercial facility by the semi.) It is extremely rude of you to just assume that I didn't have a clue about how to arrange anything when I had commented that getting it delivered would be difficult as had been asceratined when discussing it with WOodstock.

ANd save the age nonsense. You might be able to - at most - spot me 10 years. I'll be sure to tell my orthopedist, pain specialist and physical therapist that you think I can move stoves about with massive orthopedic damage to the right neck and shoulder and extensive nerve dmage that means I can't even butter toast 3 weeks before the every-3 month nerve block and need a DOG to carry anything over 5 lbs.



I am not 'afraid' of anything. I simply have no intention of having to obsess over whether the wood has been dried for 18 or 19 months or 30 or 31. ANd from all that I have read about cats, both on this form and elsewhere, they ARE touchy about wood -more so than EPA non-cats. FUrther it is just one more thiing to break down - and I see no point at all in having to fiddle with something like that. Any difference in burn time or the other micro-matters you go on about is simply NOT that important to me to put up with it.

I have been buying wood from suppliers for nearly all of those 30 years. You get what they can provide and hope for the best until they prove they have misrepresented their goods. In fact I strongly suspect that I have far more expereince in commercial transactions and whether or not you can verify the seller's claims as to the goods - having been a litgator in Federal Court in commrcial/business cases deos tend to give me an advantage in business dealings.


I strongly suggest you tone it way down and dial it way back. I have had woods stoves for nearly 30 years. You come off as patronizing and condescending - and frankly rude.. WHy do I have the sense that if it had not been obvious that I was a woman writing these comments you would never have been as pushy, demeaning offensive or overbearing?

Ps: When I talk to Woodstock again (they are to call), I will be happy to tell them that an encounter with an overbearing officious pushy partonziing customer of their left me with a real distaste for their product - a visceral reaction.

You may be besotted with the specific stove you purchase - in fact I'm hardpressed to ever remebering a post in these forums when you didn't push others to buy what you did - but that does not mean that your choice is correct for everyone in all situations.

BTW Dennis - you OVERPAID, yep paid too much - for the amount of BTUs that the Fireview produces. Woodstocks (And Hearthstones) sopastone stoves are priced at over 50% more per BTU than comparable cast iron that also get the job done.

 

[ddddddden]

Whoa! Easy there. . .as you have observed, Dennis says the same thing in most of his posts.
Why would you take it personally or assume sexism? :roll:

 

[eabpmn]

Man, I wish I still had my spreadsheets from when I was researching woodstoves! Wait until you have to build a hearthpad for the sucker.... (note: just give up and find some Micore. Trust me on this.) And I'm with you on the cats. Maybe after I feel like I've gotten the hang of this and need a second stove for some reason, I'll check it out, but for my first stove I just wanted a box I could make a fire in, the end, goodnight.

I too looked down my nose at steel stoves and wanted a solid cast iron stove- isn't that what stoves are supposed to be made of? What is this steel nonsense?! ......., just defending my itty bitty steel box.)

If you're looking at Jotuls and Hearthstones, I'm guessing you aren't on that small of a budget. Personally, I've never heard a bad thing about Jotuls. Soapstone IS pretty finicky about maintenance- not that it's hard, it's just a matter of keeping up with it. . I would just up and pull the trigger and get the Jotul. Cheaper, easier, and it's cast iron.

~Rose

Not so much turning up my nose as wanting something that has the statistical probability of being good for minimum 10 years and up to 20. This is probably be the last house we buy - being at "that age' - so I want something were the odds are it is going to last as long as we need it. So it is bite-the-bullet on cost time and get in exactly what we need and have done with it - probably until we end up in assisted living or something.

(I was being emphatic on the 'no steel' because so many of the regulars on these threads coming in pushing their particular choice - not you - but others who do it in every single post they get a chance. The Blaze King afficandos are among the most strident seconded only by ceratin people with a Woodstock Soapstone.)

My all-time favorite wood stove was a little cast-iron Waterford Lepruchaun we put in the cabin in the mountains decades ago. Got caught there when a 200 year storm hit and where winter temps usually didn't go below 0, it hit MINUS 31 ! ANd there we were in an uninsulated - and I mean UNinsulated cabin - and that little stove that had a 33000 BTU rating came through and kept us warm in a 900 ft cabin for the entire week we were stuck there. Later sold the camp, sold the stove and last time I heard it was still rockin' and rolling at 20 years old.....

SIgh..... if I could only have another Waterford....... unfortunately going to England/Ireland, buying one and shipping it back isn't in the household budget this month.....

I understand what you have read about the soapstones. There are threads on this forum about how how you have to watch the surface temperature on this one and that one doesn't want to be hotter than XXX...... Maybe it is the owner's being anal, maybe there is trick to them. Have to say I saw a lot of soapstone stoves in the homes of Old Amish (horse and buggy) and them seemed to do just fine. Maybe it was the stoves I saw 20 years ago and now they are fussier......maybe it is the owners now who obsess over the stove and go on and on about its operation.

THe big thing is the soapstones DO cost 50% more per BTU than comparable cast iron. (And even way more per relative BTU than steel.) Makes you wonder if those who buy them aren't motivated by (1) looks of the stove and/or (2) ego since they are obviously upper-upscale toys.

 

[eabpmn]

Whoa! Easy there. . .as you have observed, Dennis says the same thing in most of his posts.
Why would you take it personally or assume sexism? :roll:

I've read Dennis posts - a lot of them. And he is consistently overbearing, obnoxious and bullying with wild assumptions and (here for example) false statments of what they said.. Just because he always does it does not mean it is acceptable.

And he uniformly more so with the the behavior when the poster asking the question is a woman who he posts to as if they couldn't light a match or have a clue how to pour p*i*s*s out of a bott if the instructions were on the heel. Doubt he would have the stones to call a man "afraid' of something. I assume it is sexism based upon the preponderance of the evidence in his posts. Period.

 

[rdust]

I've read Dennis posts - a lot of them. And he is consistently overbearing, obnoxious and bullying with wild assumptions and (here for example) false statments of what they said.. Just because he always does it does not mean it is acceptable.

And he uniformly more so with the the behavior when the poster asking the question is a woman who he posts to as if they couldn't light a match or have a clue how to pour p*i*s*s out of a bott if the instructions were on the heel. Doubt he would have the stones to call a man "afraid' of something. I assume it is sexism based upon the preponderance of the evidence in his posts. Period.

I'm sorry to inform you Dennis has given more to this forum than you ever will. He and many of the other veterans on this site guided many of the new members down the successful road of wood burning. Burning wood successfully and efficiently is more than just tossing some wood in a box.

I have much more I'd like to say but I enjoy this site and would like to remain a member so I'll zip it now. I wish you luck in finding what you're looking for.