New Jotul 500 install - should I put in a pipe butterfly damper?

[Dougiefreshhh]

Hi All:

Quick update, and a question regarding my new Jotul 500.

Update: The old VC Resolute is out in the garage, and the new Jotul 500 is on the hearth! Tomorrow, the chimney gets cleaned, and on Monday, they officially install it, permits and all. I will post pics when the install is all done.

Question: the stove pipe will run out the back about 12 inches, and then turn up into 35' of 6" liner (chimney is in the center of the house). I've never had a draft issue, and was wondering if I should put in one of those butterfly dampers in the vertical pipe?

This will be my first stove without a traditional damper....and reading the reports of the Oslo's "going nuclear", are a bit worrysome. I"m hoping this stove is going to be easier to operate (and have longer burn times), than my old 30 yr old VC Resolute Acclaim.

The red arrow in the pic below shows the location of the new stove.

Thanks all!
Doug

 

[spirilis]

Yes with 35ft of chimney, count on having a pipe damper in there if it's not any trouble. Can always just leave it open.

 

[begreen]

Yes, I'd put a damper in with 35 ft of liner. Looks like a nice place by the floorplan. I like the term 'gathering room'.

 

[Blue Vomit]

congrats on the Oslo. The area between the gathering room and the kitchen... air hockey table or shuffleboard?

 

[yaker57]

No dont put anything in this pipe!! This Jotul 500 is STARVED for AIR!! I Love Mine But it is Most Frustrating to get it up to Speed as You Are Told Not to use the Ash Door for Firing it Up!! And then You find out You just about Have to for a Bit just to get it to Create Flames even when You have 4in of Bloody Hot Coals !! I have even made a Screen for the Side door as I have to leave it Open to draw the air in ( I know about the sparks) and You have to be Careful doing this , so the Screen Helps a lot....But The EPA is killing these Great Stoves, They are Shutting Down the Air Flow, So be aware of Creating Your Own Air Flow , if Yours is slow to get up to speed just like all the others I see on here I suppose that All EPA stoves suffer this, so sad! Now once You get it fired up then she will climb on her own air, dont seem to be able to find where the air holes are in the fire box? But incredible to Me is with piles of hot coals and thro dry wood on , shut the door and it will not of its own air build a fire, have to open the side door place in screen and let it build But with the side screen , now I have the Fireplace effect without spending the $120 for the front screen, which is crazy

I would Love to see a True Oslo In Norway, and Bet they Burn like they have Air, wonder anybody know, surely EPA didnt sink the whole Industry over there too? I have been told No Dampner in the pipe, Oslo is made to run without any obstructions and if I had put one in I would be taking it out , blaming it first for creating an obstruction to my air!!

I have burned for 30yrs and understand it takes Air to make a Fire, and it is Amazing to open the ash door and hear the engine Roar of air creating Awesome Flames , then have to shut it down and go to the Side door I burn 24/7 and enjoy it very much just Needs Air Enjoy the Learning Curve Sad they cant make Cast Iron Grills like the Old Days so we could leave ash door open and not warp them so quickly!!

Again, it is Great Stove just needs air!!

 

[spirilis]

With 35ft of 6" insulated chimney in the center of the house, I seriously doubt this Oslo will be starved for air. Still recommend putting a manual pipe damper in there.

 

[fishingpol]

I finally used my damper. I have 25 ft insulated flex liner and by closing it down 1/2 way, I see a higher stove top temps that I could not get before. 35ft should give you great draft, maybe too much.

 

[logger]

No dont put anything in this pipe!! This Jotul 500 is STARVED for AIR!! I Love Mine But it is Most Frustrating to get it up to Speed as You Are Told Not to use the Ash Door for Firing it Up!! And then You find out You just about Have to for a Bit just to get it to Create Flames even when You have 4in of Bloody Hot Coals !! I have even made a Screen for the Side door as I have to leave it Open to draw the air in ( I know about the sparks) and You have to be Careful doing this , so the Screen Helps a lot....But The EPA is killing these Great Stoves, They are Shutting Down the Air Flow, So be aware of Creating Your Own Air Flow , if Yours is slow to get up to speed just like all the others I see on here I suppose that All EPA stoves suffer this, so sad! Now once You get it fired up then she will climb on her own air, dont seem to be able to find where the air holes are in the fire box? But incredible to Me is with piles of hot coals and thro dry wood on , shut the door and it will not of its own air build a fire, have to open the side door place in screen and let it build But with the side screen , now I have the Fireplace effect without spending the $120 for the front screen, which is crazy

I would Love to see a True Oslo In Norway, and Bet they Burn like they have Air, wonder anybody know, surely EPA didnt sink the whole Industry over there too? I have been told No Dampner in the pipe, Oslo is made to run without any obstructions and if I had put one in I would be taking it out , blaming it first for creating an obstruction to my air!!

I have burned for 30yrs and understand it takes Air to make a Fire, and it is Amazing to open the ash door and hear the engine Roar of air creating Awesome Flames , then have to shut it down and go to the Side door I burn 24/7 and enjoy it very much just Needs Air Enjoy the Learning Curve Sad they cant make Cast Iron Grills like the Old Days so we could leave ash door open and not warp them so quickly!!

Again, it is Great Stove just needs air!!

Yaker57,
You have a draft issue that needs tending to. I have quite a few freinds and family members with Oslos, Firelights, and Castines. All run great and are not starved for air. Before comparing your Oslo to all the other ones out there, I'd try to pinpoint the issue you're having with the draft. I admit, when we first installed our Oslo, I used the ash door a few times, but as I got to know the stove, I began rarely even opening the side door to start fires. There are many knowledgeable people on these boards. If you share your stove and pipe setup, you will get great advice how to improve your draft. Some q's to start with: Do you have any elbows? what size pipe or pipes, or is it liner through a chimney? what is the length of pipe or liner? and is it insulated? The answers to these can help us help you.

As far as the EPA is involved, they actually make sure the opposite of what you said happens. The newer stoves give more air even with the damper closed all the way. This way the fire doesn't smolder as much and create as much creasote and smoke as the older "smoke dragons" did. They are also intended to burn more of the gases and smoke to create even more heat. They may be a little pickier as far as good fuel supply, but they shouldn't starve the stove from air. Best of luck.

 

[scotsman]

I've wondered about this myself. Our 30' of 6" liner draws like a vacuum cleaner. I'm installing the BMF and was raising the pipe when I decided to check the draft before hooking it up (since I forgot to order the connector pipe!) tore off a 10" piece of tissue and only got to within 8" of the opening when it was sucked in. And this was with almost no wind, which is rare out here.

So, can some of you really old, old-timers give me some "hep" on how to use a damper? I'm puttin' one in the horizontal connector pipe on the recommendation of Woodstock, but really am not sure just how to use it or when with the BMF. What exactly does a damper do for you? Back in the day, they were common, but that was a whole 'nother burning picture.

Thanks--

 

[spirilis]

The damper is literally just a butterfly valve that, when "closed", restricts the flue pipe. It won't seal it off completely because there's usually some holes in the middle of the damper and a small gap between the edge of the damper and the pipe.

Here's a picture of one:
(broken image removed)

I'm not sure if there's a good rule of thumb about how to use it with an EPA stove; in the Classic stove forums I think coaly mentioned the procedure for using one with an old Fisher stove, basically you open the stove doors with the fire burning and the damper wide open (knob parallel with the pipe), then close it off little by little until smoke starts spilling out the doors, then open it up a tad. That's for a big pre-EPA stove that may or may not have had a baffle though, and it's meant for tuning the heat output when using that stove as an open fireplace. Either way you need to play with it and see what happens. With an EPA stove it'll probably be most obvious when the fire is going good; if you have excessive draft then closing the damper off may give you more lively secondary flames and a hotter stovetop. You'll have to find the sweet spot/optimal position. It just adds one more factor to consider in the art of operating a woodstove

 

[oldspark]

On my Summit I wait until the fire get going good and the flue temps are at about 400 or so and put the damper at 45 °F (surface single wall) and then reduce the primary air as needed. This can vary with the conditions but I always adjust the flue damper first.

 

[tcassavaugh]

i like a damper for safety reasons, and to help control the burn. i have used them on all my stoves...cat or no cat...EPA or prior to....no issues. i like the added control. i have a small jotul 3f cb and its great...have a PE Summit too that i haven't started up yet this year because the little Jotul is doing so good. put one in....if you don't like it, just leave it open. course make sure you measure it good or else it wont be in there right and it will bind. it should roll over if you have it in right. of course, i guess you can buy 1' pieces of pipe now with them already installed.

jmho

cass

 

[Wade A.]

I can't speak to the draft on the Oslo, but I can tell you that my Castine with 14' of Class A+connector draws like a jet airplane, BUT.......only if I'm using wood seasoned like it should be. I tell everyone who will listen, if your moisture content is above 10%, you are bucking a headwind with these stoves. Word up.

 

[oldspark]

I can't speak to the draft on the Oslo, but I can tell you that my Castine with 14' of Class A+connector draws like a jet airplane, BUT.......only if I'm using wood seasoned like it should be. I tell everyone who will listen, if your moisture content is above 10%, you are bucking a headwind with these stoves. Word up.

Now you have lost me, wood does not have to be that dry period and wish people would stop posting that as it give the newbies the wrong idea.

 

[Wade A.]

Umm....well O.S., for YOUR stove with YOUR set-up, it obviously doesn't. For MY stove, with MY set up (which is a fairly typical one), it most definitely does need to be that dry to operate well. I'm not trying to advocate a one-size-fits-all rule of thumb, as you might have thought I was.

 

[oldspark]

Normal stove normal conditions you do not need 10% wood.

 

[oldspark]

And I will not hyjack this thread so I am out of here.

 

[Wade A.]

There you have it.....err.....my stove and conditions are abnormal. Who knew? Jeez, you'd think your friends would tell you these things before a stranger on the internet would, huh?

 

[logger]

Saying that all wood should be less than 10% is way off unless you have an abnormal setup. That would take a long time for my oak to reach and I would think that below 10% it would spontaneous combust in a hot stove. Pine can get there a lot quicker, but Id rather burn the good stuff. I think most people try to keep it around 15%, but under 20% isnt bad IMO. My Oslo is picky, but my stacks are between 13-18% and all do the job perfectly.

 

[Wade A.]

Apologies CT Burner, didn't mean to take this thread this-a-way....but guess it could be considered O.T. as we are discussing merits of Jotul performance in general.

But no, there is nothing abnormal about my set-up: Stove. Double-walled connector. Class A chimney run, clearing the roof peak by a generous margin.Straight run. VERY leaky house. Now, as I stated, I'm professing to only gauge the performance of the CASTINE with various m.c. wood with the same or similar set-up. Your mileage with an Oslo may vary. (BTW, those with Castines here....love to have you weigh in on that)

All that said, I can only tell you what I've observed. When I've tried to burn wood much wetter than 10-12% (and once, 15%) red oak and hickory, my efficiency suffers. MY Castine runs best/longest with the primary air choked almost all the way down or even closed completely. On an overnight burn with wetter wood, even with the p.a. opened, you get blackened glass....the sure sign that all is not as good as it could be. Start up times suffer noticeably too.

But on a more general note, can it ever really be in dispute that any stove performs better with drier wood?

My experience with various stoves (smoke dragons, cat and non-cats) over the last 4 decades is that they each have a varying tolerances for m.c. The Castine seems to be one of those that likes hi-test, that's all I'm sayin'.

 

[logger]

To each his own. My brother has the Castine and burns the same wood I do without setbacks. I actually think some of mine has sat longer. I was just saying that telling everyone to burn wood that is no more than 10% wet is not quite accurate. I see no problem having this discussion here... no worries. Cheers.

 

[Wade A.]

Sure....you can burn anything you want, and that is everyone's choice. But look at it this way...if you do have 10% and 15% wood sitting there, which are you going to reach for on an extra cold night? You know you would, and that is all I'm saying I do. You burn more water, you get less heat, and that fact will never change, no matter the stove. With the Castine, there seems to be a perceptible drop-off in performance when you get north of 10%, based on my unscientific observations. (Again, any Castine operators out there, I'd love to know what you think about that, and I might start up another thread on that subject, and probably should.)

Curious though: Does your bro get overnight burns without dirty glass on his Castine and does he know what his m.c. is on his fuel? Is his set up any different better than mine, as I've described it? To me, that is always the tell-tale that I'm not doing as good as I could, and I only do it when I have no choice.

 

[Dougiefreshhh]

Thanks for the input all. Much appreciated...and sorry if I started a "firefight" regarding wood moisture, perfect burns, etc...

I'm going to go buy a BMF and have it ready should our installer deem it necessary. I guess I can also fire up the stove and see how it goes, and then if needed, put a damper in after the fact. They look pretty easy to install......or did the room suddently get quite with faint giggles?

Doug

 

[logger]

Sure....you can burn anything you want, and that is everyone's choice. But look at it this way...if you do have 10% and 15% wood sitting there, which are you going to reach for on an extra cold night? You know you would, and that is all I'm saying I do. You burn more water, you get less heat, and that fact will never change, no matter the stove. With the Castine, there seems to be a perceptible drop-off in performance when you get north of 10%, based on my unscientific observations. (Again, any Castine operators out there, I'd love to know what you think about that, and I might start up another thread on that subject, and probably should.)

Curious though: Does your bro get overnight burns without dirty glass on his Castine and does he know what his m.c. is on his fuel? Is his set up any different better than mine, as I've described it? To me, that is always the tell-tale that I'm not doing as good as I could, and I only do it when I have no choice.

He gets 7-8 hr burns (on average I believe, give or take), no black on glass which shouldnt be a suprise (we've buring all whole lives and arent new to it). You're acting as though above 10% (say 15%) is bad somehow and I totally disagree with you. He's got 6" pipe running straight up, no elbows. I believe it's about as tall a stack as yours (14'?). Im sure its the min. in the manual since he has a low roof. You do know that burning over-seasoned wood is bad also, right? You said "if you burn more water, you burn less heat." If wood is too dry it will burn right up, giving off less heat and burn much faster too. You have to find the sweet spot in the seasoning. Just my 2 cents

 

[Wade A.]

Yeah, sorry about all the ya-ya Doug. Sounds like you found out what you needed to know, despite it. Good deal.

My experience with stove dampers on various stoves is that they are cheap to install, and there is little down side even if you never use it (overlooking the inevitable day that it somehow gets closed without you noticing it....until smoke backs up into the room) Plus, on that day when you need it, you REALLY need it!