New log home... fireplace woes

[Jeepasaurus]

We just purchased a log home built in 1980. The fireplace on the main floor had evidence of water damage. Inspector said that it didn't look active. Fast forward to our first big downpour five days into our "new to us" home and, as my wife put it, "The wall was crying."

I took down the fake rock that was cemented around the fireplace and across the top. We both didn't like the look of it. Uncovered a mess of insulation, rotted wood, and evidence of rodents. I haven't found a model number for the fireplace yet. But it's got a huge (12"?) exhaust tube. I don't know if it is double or triple walled. It's big. Then it's got two smaller, maybe 4", tubes... one on each side. What are those?

I started looking up inserts online. Found one on Craigslist. Looked up the model number and it was a Osburn 2400 insert. Great reviews... so I snagged it. Got it for $600. Looks like it was made in '91 and wasn't used much.

So... I want to rip it all out and fix the leaking. I believe the framing behind the fireplace was for insulation purposes, but not entirely sure. I don't believe it is providing any support to the fieldstone chimney. Thoughts?

Then can but in a 6" double walled tube for the insert?
Looking for advice, input, comments, smart remarks...

Started Demo...


Behind the ugly looking fake / concrete stone


Rotting wood framing behind fireplace...had insulation batts between the studs, but they got wet and fell down.


The chimney


Thanks,
Jeepasaurus

 

[iron]

sounds like you need to call that inspector back and get a refund.

 

[begreen]

That is a Zero Clearance fireplace. It can not be replaced with a fireplace insert. The Osburn must be installed in a masonry fireplace, not a ZC. After the leak problems are cleared up the current unit may be still usable or it should be replaced with another ZC fireplace or possibly a free-standing stove.

 

[Simonkenton]

The fireplace is at the bottom of the roof, which is the most difficult place to install a fireplace. All the water that runs down the roof runs onto the fireplace.
Much better if the fireplace is poking through the top, center of the roof.
But, for a fireplace like yours, you need a proper "cricket" to deflect the water. Google up "cricket."

That is a shallow pitched roof, I bet you can get up there and see that there is either, a poorly installed cricket, or else, no cricket at all.

Get a good cricket installed and the rest is easy.

ps I would sue that inspector.

 

[edyit]

since you already have everything torn open, why not install a free standing wood stove?

 

[kennyp2339]

Wow, I feel bad for you, nothing like when you buy something then suddenly find that there's a problem, luckily the members of hearth are here to help.
BG - is absolutely correct that an insert can not be installed in a prefab fire place, inserts are made to be installed in masonry fireplaces, anything other than that is a real fire hazard.
I would call a good handy man (small all around cons company) to build a cricket on the roof and to re-flash / seal around the chimney.
I would do a front cricket (were the pitch of the roof meets the chimney), a large long tall piece of flashing, then step flashing along the sides.
I would then figure out what type of stove to go with, either a new epa zero clearance (like a heat n glo) or a free standing stove. The reason why I'm suggesting on figuring a stove out now is because you want to figure out what to do with the existing chimney pipe. If it were me, I would rip the old one out anyway (due to years of weather exposure) but I would want to have a plan of replacing it with either a 6" or 8" class a pipe.
Once you figure out your chimney pipe you will want to install a new chase cover to keep the weather out.
I noticed insulation in the chase area, when you replace the insulation please use at a minimum roxal (its fire proof past 2,000deg) the other insulation in there looks like simple fiberglass wall insulation which will burn but worse off gas harmful fumes that could potentially enter your living space.
The rest can be done once you figure out which type of install your gonna do. *webfish just started a thread on his adventure ripping out a zero clearance unit and replacing it with a free standing stove, it came out good, take a look.

 

[coldkiwi]

You may or may not need a cricket,that being said it looks like the stone work may have been flashed after the work was done.Hard to water proof flashing placed against such uneven stones, even if you grout it, as the grout could crack or dry,out and shrink.A cricket would deflect the roof water which would help, but you need to deliver all the water from the vertical stack onto the roof and then to the gutters.Hopefully there is some sort of flashing under the cementwork otherwise you are always going to have problems.Proper flashing is an art IMHO

 

[begreen]

A picture of the place where the roof meets the chimney may help pinpoint flashing issues, but it seems like this may always be a problem with rain and snow coming off the roof and pooling at that location. If all fixes are bandaids, what are the other options? Maybe tear it all out and put a window there, then put a freestanding wood stove elsewhere?

 

[Hogwildz]

[QUOTE=" insert can not be installed in a prefab fire place, inserts are made to be installed in masonry fireplaces, anything other than that is a real fire hazard"
[/QUOTE]
Not completely true. Heatform/heatilator fireplaces are acceptable to install inserts in. I forget which is which. They are masonry and thick plate double steel shell fireplaces. Masonry floor, double steel firebox, air gap and masonry surrounding & upwards.
As for a ZC, I belive you are correct. And any builder's grade fireplace, height as well rip out, and install a freestander, if you can get within ctc.

The OP did the right thing by tearing that POS out. Now he knows what he needs to correct, and what he has to work with.

 

[Jeepasaurus]

I guess I jumped the gun on the insert. The price was too good to pass up. Probably makes more sense to get a free standing stove... Now that I'm a little more educated, thanks to you guys!

It does have a cricket installed. It just may not be the right height.... Or the flashing isn't right. There is tar slopped on there. See pics.

Don't really want to tear down the fieldstone chimney... Would be a huge undertaking. But, I want it done right and I'm not afraid of a little sweat equity.

Thoughts?









North side (when facing house it's in the right)


South side


East (front of house)

 

[begreen]

Hog, thoughts on the flashing here? Looks like this has been a long term and known issue. I can't believe they used galvanized at this critical location but don't know the best practices for this roofing scenario.

The chimney crown crack should be fixed soon too.

PS: I suspect this is just stone veneer on plywood. If so, the whole thing could be demolished in a day. That said I can appreciate that you want to keep it.

PPS: Does your state require disclosure of this type of defect upon sale of the house? It looks like it was a known issue as evidenced by the multiple patch attempts.

 

[Jeepasaurus]

Hog, thoughts on the flashing here? Looks like this has been a long term and known issue. I can't believe they used galvanized at this critical location but don't know the best practices for this roofing scenario.

The chimney crown crack should be fixed soon too.

PS: I suspect this is just stone veneer on plywood. If so, the whole thing could be demolished in a day. That said I can appreciate that you want to keep it.

PPS: Does your state require disclosure of this type of defect upon sale of the house? It looks like it was a known issue as evidenced by the multiple patch attempts.

Best way to address the crown crack?

I live in WI... not sure what exactly the law is. There is a disclosure document, but the leaking chimney wasn't listed by the previous owner. The house was vacant for a year.

Yes, it's been band-aided over and over and the real problem was never really addressed. I'll be fixing it the right way this time. Hopefully the "right way" doesn't involve tearing the chimney down.

 

[bholler]

Yes, it's been band-aided over and over and the real problem was never really addressed. I'll be fixing it the right way this time. Hopefully the "right way" doesn't involve tearing the chimney down.

The problem is you have to fix the rot and there really is no way to do that without taking it down. That interior structure is supporting that masonry on the exterior. You cant remove it without first removing the masonry.

Best way to address the crown crack?

On a real masonry chimney it would be to tear that old crown off and pour a slab up there with an over hang but with a veneered chase which you have you need to tear that old crown off and put a stainless chase cover up there. When you tear the crown off you will be able to see the whole structere and evaluate if it is salvageable. Which by the pics it does not look it.

 

[Simonkenton]

You have conventional asphalt/fiberglass shingles.
They cannot be used on less than a 4/12 pitch.
Right there at the cricket I can tell that the pitch is less than 4/12. Therefore this cricket is a bad install and doomed to leak.
Furthermore, I would like you to measure the pitch of the roof. It is near 4/12.
To measure this you need a framing square and a 2 foot level.

Give us the pitch of the main house roof.

 

[Hogwildz]

The flashings, while run correctly as best I can tell in the photos, are way too low to the roof. At some points (at the cricket) it appears the rear corners of the back flashing near the cricket go to almost 0 vertical height from the cricket. The side step flashings are too low also. Looks like they tried to stay in mortar joints but kept the reglet cuts low. Personally, I would not have bothered with the last row of shingles under the bottom of the masonry, merely added holes through the bottom base flashing, if it has any under there.
I'm thinking the problem you're seeing may have been present before the new roof was put on, and the cricket may have been added during to re-roof job.

The roof cement on everything, is the first mistake many home owners and half ass roofers make. Doesn't last long.
The cap can be fixed. Where the stack pipe comes through the cap, looks like there is a low cut sleeve against the concrete of the cap, and it appears to be wide open to me. Unless I am seeing it wrong? That and the cap should be addressed. The flashings around the masonry need to be redone. You could do a higher cricket, but if it is covered with ice and water shield and run to not buck water to each side, it will be fine. The pitch at the cricket is not an issue, just make sure it was done with ice and water shield underneath, and it was laid to shed water off each side ( no seams underneath against the flow of water. The kept the cricket low in order to avoid re running new flashing, and they failed at that.

As far as the masonry, you can address the support of it below without pulling the chimney down. It will have to be jacked and supported and new supporting structure installed below. My mother side of the family are all masons, for generations. They do supportive structural repairs all the time. Just did my parents 200+ year old gristmill, needed larger corner beams and posts replaced.

I'd do a little research before tearing things apart.
From what I see up top, repair the cap, seal around where the pipe passes through the cap. And check that the cricket is properly set with ice & water shield on top. The flashings, all but the front gotta be redone, higher. If the lower has no true base flashing onto the roof, then get rid of the hsingles down there and properly flash that also.

As far as the insert, post it for sale and get yourself a freestander.

BTW, My money is the roof is at least a 6/12 pitch

Advise # 2,000,001
When you see roof cement, you know there is a problem. Unless it is used on a flat commercial roof of asphalt base. Otherwise the limited acceptable use on a shingle residential use, would not be exposed to be seen. When you see it slathered all over the face of something, that means there was a leak that someone piled muck on until the leak stopped. Unfortunately, roof cement doesn't last much longer than a few seasons of expansion & contraction. Once it dries out and cracks, the leaks return.

 

[Hogwildz]

You could do a copper or any metal cap cover with drip edges to cover the old concrete cap. You would have to make sure of a good seal around where the pipe goes through.

 

[bholler]

As far as the masonry, you can address the support of it below without pulling the chimney down. It will have to be jacked and supported and new supporting structure installed below. My mother side of the family are all masons, for generations. They do supportive structural repairs all the time. Just did my parents 200+ year old gristmill, needed larger corner beams and posts replaced.

The problem is that this looks like the masonry is just a veneer over a framed structure. There is no masonry structure so when you remove the rotted wood from inside there will be nothing holding the masonry together unless there is a self supporting masonry structure built out side that wooden chase which would be very non typical.

 

[sportbikerider78]

First off...take deeeeep breaths. Everything will pan out ok. Soon you will be looking at this and not remember the struggles with your new house.

Someone addressed it very correctly. I'm an amateur roofer,,,and even I know that cricket is all wrong. Shingles don't work without the right pitch. Shingles do not seal a roof, they only redirect water with gravity.

If it was me,,,,I'd rip it all out and start over. It might end up being cheaper! Lets face it, this is a stone covered 2x4 structure and the 2x4's are rotten. Do yourself a favor and make it what you want it to be from scratch instead of a bastardized version of what the previous owner thought it is.

 

[Dobish]

I guess I jumped the gun on the insert. The price was too good to pass up. Probably makes more sense to get a free standing stove... Now that I'm a little more educated, thanks to you guys!

It does have a cricket installed. It just may not be the right height.... Or the flashing isn't right. There is tar slopped on there. See pics.

Don't really want to tear down the fieldstone chimney... Would be a huge undertaking. But, I want it done right and I'm not afraid of a little sweat equity.

Thoughts?

be afraid of sweat equity

tearing it down is not that hard... putting it back together right is worse!

 

[FPX Dude]

Nah no never ever regret doing it right... You see sweat equity is the BEST, and putting it back together knowing it's gonna be right is also the BEST I can only only provide comfort in taking your time because as grandpa would say "measure twice and cut once", do it right for you. I've always been involved in doing more intricate projects or situations because to me it's not about cost, it's about creating a lifestyle that I wanted to live.

 

[Jeepasaurus]

Haven't had a chance to get up there and measure the pitch of the roof.

Made some calls to local fireplace company... Should have someone out to take a look within the next week. Just trying to weigh all my options and make the best decision. If the best decision is to tear it down, I'm all for it. Currently have a dumpster sitting in the driveway for the basement demo. Now would be the time to get rid of it. Might just be easier and faster to have some family out this weekend and demo it. Then frame up, put some insulation in, tear into the roof and lay down some new plywood and shingles.

That will give us time to complete the other million projects around the house and design something we really want. And... no more leaking for the time being.

 

[Dobish]

Haven't had a chance to get up there and measure the pitch of the roof.

Made some calls to local fireplace company... Should have someone out to take a look within the next week. Just trying to weigh all my options and make the best decision. If the best decision is to tear it down, I'm all for it. Currently have a dumpster sitting in the driveway for the basement demo. Now would be the time to get rid of it. Might just be easier and faster to have some family out this weekend and demo it. Then frame up, put some insulation in, tear into the roof and lay down some new plywood and shingles.

That will give us time to complete the other million projects around the house and design something we really want. And... no more leaking for the time being.

yes. do this.

 

[Hogwildz]

The problem is that this looks like the masonry is just a veneer over a framed structure. There is no masonry structure so when you remove the rotted wood from inside there will be nothing holding the masonry together unless there is a self supporting masonry structure built out side that wooden chase which would be very non typical.

Ah, I missed the veneer point. If it is veneer, then I agree, tear it out, repair and re-veneer if that is what they want.

 

[bholler]

Ah, I missed the veneer point. If it is veneer, then I agree, tear it out, repair and re-veneer if that is what they want.

I am assuming that is what it is by the framed interior structure but people do some weird stuff so you never know

 

[Simonkenton]

Well, go ahead and measure the house pitch, it is very important. Do you know how to do it?