New Lopi Flush Large Next Gen

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Hoytman

Feeling the Heat
Jan 6, 2020
360
Ohio
You might put that burden in your installers to let them assume responsibility for the full install.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,567
South Puget Sound, WA
Sounds like a quick bandaid instead of real testing and solutions.
 

Silversniper

New Member
Jul 11, 2021
32
Australia
Agree it isn’t the best option, however removing masonry to lower the unit to create enough space to insert a larger insulation layer/block off plate between the unit and the lintel would be a larger task, so this seems worth trying first.

I haven’t responded to all other suggestions but I am considering them and experimenting with them all. Thanks for all the assistance.
 
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begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,567
South Puget Sound, WA
The block-off plate would be above the lintel in the damper area. Yes, it's more work, but also more effective by blocking heat from convecting up into the chimney.

Still waiting on proper wood moisture tests and also testing with a door or window cracked open so that these tests can be checked off from the list of the possible causes.
 

Hoytman

Feeling the Heat
Jan 6, 2020
360
Ohio
The testing and solutions should be up to the installer and they should assume any responsibility for the install. I’d say you agree with that.

The only reason I mentioned rock wool it refractory insulation is because the poster mentioned it first.
IF he decides to tackle the project himself I can’t control what he decides to do and insulation in this case would indeed be a bandaid, still better than not trying anything...regardless whether the home owner tries it or lets the installer assume all liability.
 

Silversniper

New Member
Jul 11, 2021
32
Australia
Here are the burn instructions from the Lopi manual - these are new instructions for the new model. Posting here for reference.

Understanding Your Heater’s Combustion System
This heater uses a dual combustion system detailed below:
Primary Combustion: This is the combustion (fire) that takes place directly on the wood. Primary combustion determines how fast the fire burns. Air for primary combustion is supplied through the air control. When you adjust the air control you control the amount of air that reaches the fire and creates primary combustion. The air control supplies air to the air wash (the air holes above the door opening – used to help clean the glass) and through the pilot orifice (center bottom of the door opening). By using the air control, and supplying air through these two openings, you control primary combustion.
Secondary Combustion: This is the combustion (fire) that does not contact the wood. Secondary combustion burns the visible emissions or smoke that is not consumed during primary combustion. It takes place at the top of the firebox and can appear as a glowing flame near the secondary air tubes.
Items to Consider:
 During medium and high burn rates the stove will manage secondary and primary combustion on its own. When the heater is set to a low burn rate more care is needed to ensure the secondary combustion system works properly. Make sure the stove is hot and a good coal bed is established before adjusting your heater to low burn.
 Understanding the combustion system in this heater will help minimize the visible emissions this heater releases into the environment. The primary pilot orifice at the center bottom of the door opening is designed to help the secondary combustion at low burn settings. The pilot provides a small amount of air that burns up through the fuel load providing the heat and flame needed for the secondary system to ignite. The air tubes under the baffle need to remain lit off for low burns to be effective.
 As you load your heater for a low burn, take care in placing the wood. This will affect how well your secondary system works as the wood is consumed. Do not block the pilot orifice. Stack wood so the pilot air can burn its way up between the pieces, helping your heater burn effectively throughout the low fire. This will reduce the visible emissions your heater produces and increase the amount of heat you get from the wood. If you are unsure how well your heater is burning look at the chimney cap to monitor visible emissions.
Burning Your Heater
Starting a Fire: Make sure your air control is all the way open and the by-pass is in the open position. To reduce the amount of smoke when starting your fire, the “Top Down” method described below allows for the cleanest starts. Stack four or five layers of medium-sized kindling 1 to 2” in diameter in a tic tac toe pattern, four pieces per layer with about 1⁄2” to 1” spacing between pieces. On top of the kindling stack, place crumpled newspaper and a nest of pencil-sized kindling, this will produce sustained heat at the beginning of the process to help establish draft in the chimney.
Light the paper and small kindling on top and let it burn down through the layers of kindling. Using this this method, the door should be able to be closed within approximately two to three minutes after lighting the kindling. If the fire starts to die down, reopen the door and leave it cracked open until the fire takes recovers and becomes established. Never leave your heater unattended if the door is not latched shut. Three to five minutes after closing the door you should be able to shut the by-pass. Again, if the fire starts to die down, open the bypass until the fire is established and the flames are active. Reload the stove with medium sized pieces of cordwood when the kindling pile has burned about three-quarters of the way through. Use just enough wood to establish a good coal bed (approximately 5-7 pieces depending on the size). A hot coal bed is critical to clean combustion of the fuel. We cannot overstate the importance of a hot coal bed before slowing down the burn rate by adjusting the air control. Burn the first full load of cordwood completely through at the high burn rate to get your heater up to a good operating temperature and to establish a hot coal bed before reloading and adjusting the burn rate.
Reloading: When reloading a hot heater set the burn rate on high for at least 15 min before slowing it down.
Low Burn: If preparing for an overnight or low burn a longer heat up period may be necessary. Reload the heater full of wood making sure there are air gaps between the wood pieces so the pilot air can burn up through the middle load keeping the secondary combustion system hot and active throughout the burn. After loading, burn the heater on high for at least 15 minutes before setting the air control to low. Excessive creosote buildup (or sooting) in the heater at the end of a low burn signifies that the heater was not hot enough and the wood load was not burned long enough on high after loading before shutting down the air control.
© Travis Industries 9/17/2020 - 1541 Flush
 

Silversniper

New Member
Jul 11, 2021
32
Australia
I think the issue with these instructions are that they are written for one scenario only, and that is, where everything is perfect.
So, for example, where you have four or five layers of medium size kindling that burn in a top down manner exactly as planned (not too much flame, not too little).

As it states ‘if the fire starts to die down, reopen the door’ and what this means in the real world is, ‘if you keep trying to shut the door, as per the instructions, and the fire keeps dying down when you do, you will be constantly shutting and then having to reopen the door, losing heat each time, and this process which should take 10 mins will take about 1.5 hours’.

So, don’t shut the door unless you are 100% confident the flue has heated up to the point it has started creating its own, powerful, draft.

I think I have install-issues - which have resulted in slower than normal times to get the required heat into the lower portion of the flue - coupled with a user manual that gave unrealistic timings.

As I say, further experimentation required.. I am still working all this out.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
90,567
South Puget Sound, WA
The testing and solutions should be up to the installer and they should assume any responsibility for the install. I’d say you agree with that.

The only reason I mentioned rock wool it refractory insulation is because the poster mentioned it first.
IF he decides to tackle the project himself I can’t control what he decides to do and insulation in this case would indeed be a bandaid, still better than not trying anything...regardless whether the home owner tries it or lets the installer assume all liability.
Hopefully, the installer has the wisdom to look for causes outside of the installation too.
 

Dmitry

Minister of Fire
Oct 4, 2014
1,062
CT
I think the issue with these instructions is that they are written for one scenario only, and that is, where everything is perfect.
So, for example, where you have four or five layers of medium size kindling that burn in a top down manner exactly as planned (not too much flame, not too little).

As it states ‘if the fire starts to die down, reopen the door’ and what this means in the real world is, ‘if you keep trying to shut the door, as per the instructions, and the fire keeps dying down when you do, you will be constantly shutting and then having to reopen the door, losing heat each time, and this process which should take 10 mins will take about 1.5 hours’.

So, don’t shut the door unless you are 100% confident the flue has heated up to the point it has started creating its own, powerful, draft.

I think I have install-issues - which have resulted in slower than normal times to get the required heat into the lower portion of the flue - coupled with a user manual that gave unrealistic timings.

As I say, further experimentation required.. I am still working all this out.

Hi, Silversniper. By no means do I want to be disrespectful, but it really hurts to read some posts from new members like you.
Guys like Begreen are giving very clear instructions on where to start. And the first order is always to check the wood properly, not just randomly sticking a moisture meter in it. From my experience, 90 percent of all the problems are coming from wet wood. All new stoves required really dry wood to perform well. I have a large flush hybrid stove from the same manufacturer as yours, Freestanding Osburn 2400 and my daughter has the same LOPI as you have. So, I have some experience.
Her Lopi is good enough to heat 2000 sq ft 24/7 with no other heat source in CT and it can get pretty cold here. They advertise " up to 12 hours", but it's an exaggeration all manufacturers do. In our climate, we get around 8 hours of useful heat from it. You are not going to see fire for all this time.
But it should produce enough heat. You said that the blower is loud and you don't turn it in more than 40 percent. Here is bad news for you. This is a flush insert and the majority of the heat generated on the top of the insert should be transferred with a blower. You still will feel radiating heat, but not as much as with free standing stove.
But again, a lot of your problems sound to me like wet wood. The performance can be improved with all the remedies, like block plate, insulated liner etc, but your issue seems like a major problem.
Please, check your wood first. It always looks like seasoned guys tell new guys to put good gasoline in a new car if the car does not perform and new guys always alternate cars computer, kicking tires, opening and closing doors, and doing everything else besides getting normal gasoline.
 
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Dmitry

Minister of Fire
Oct 4, 2014
1,062
CT
Hi, Silversniper. By no means do I want to be disrespectful, but it really hurts to read some posts from new members like you.
Guys like Begreen are giving very clear instructions on where to start. And the first order is always to check the wood properly, not just randomly sticking a moisture meter in it. From my experience, 90 percent of all the problems are coming from wet wood. All new stoves required really dry wood to perform well. I have a large flush hybrid stove from the same manufacturer as yours, Freestanding Osburn 2400 and my daughter has the same LOPI as you have. So, I have some experience.
Her Lopi is good enough to heat 2000 sq ft 24/7 with no other heat source in CT and it can get pretty cold here. They advertise " up to 12 hours", but it's an exaggeration all manufacturers do. In our climate, we get around 8 hours of useful heat from it. You are not going to see fire for all this time.
But it should produce enough heat. You said that the blower is loud and you don't turn it in more than 40 percent. Here is bad news for you. This is a flush insert and the majority of the heat generated on the top of the insert should be transferred with a blower. You still will feel radiating heat, but not as much as with free standing stove.
But again, a lot of your problems sound to me like wet wood. The performance can be improved with all the remedies, like block plate, insulated liner, etc, but your issue seems like a major problem.
Please, check your wood first. It always looks like seasoned guys tell new guys to put good gasoline in a new car if the car does not perform and new guys always alternate cars computer, kick tires, open doors, and do everything else besides getting normal gasoline.
 
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Dmitry

Minister of Fire
Oct 4, 2014
1,062
CT
This is my stove reacting to air added
It's basically the same stove with a catalyst added, being "hybrid"


This is burning after 3 hours.


My flue is 15 ft, insulated.
 

Silversniper

New Member
Jul 11, 2021
32
Australia
I was actually trying to be polite toward Begreen and I am sorry to hear that my posts have caused you hurt.

I sort of lost count of the number of times I got told to recheck my wood moisture level - so I just politely pointed out that I was taking on board all feedback and trying all of the suggested options.

For the record, I have been using dry paper and dry cardboard and dry wood and dry air. I am not sure what else I am supposed to say.

(Your results with the previous version are definitely better than mine, although I am getting improved results with practice).
 
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Dmitry

Minister of Fire
Oct 4, 2014
1,062
CT
I was actually trying to be polite toward Begreen and I am sorry to hear that my posts have caused you hurt.

I sort of lost count of the number of times he told me/ordered me to check my wood moisture level - so I just politely pointed out that I was taking on board all feedback and trying all of the suggested options.
Man, just trying to help, "hurt" is just an exaggeration on my side, just like claims from manufacturers about "12-hour burn". I was in the same shoes as you are. The person who sold me firewood guaranteed that it was seasoned, so I dismissed the test just to find out later that I had to dry it for another year. Whatever you try with opening/closing your door, bypass, air intake does not make any sense if the wood is subpar. It should be easier than you have it. My daughter learned how to keep a fire in 24/7 mode and to start it from coals if needed. It should not be smoldering after the start with air intake open enough. And the door is usually open for 5 min just to get a good start.
Again, Just trying to help.
 

woodgeek

Minister of Fire
Jan 27, 2008
4,406
SE PA
Great advice in this thread (useful for me, who have only burned the stove (happily) for one day).

OP, I think we are confused bc you haven't told us what the moisture level is in your wood, when its freshly split. Or if you did, I missed it. :)

I will add that a common new burner error I have seen is to not load it up. These stoves are designed to be filled with wood and lit off. Some new burners (not accusing OP) are cautious, not trusting their stove or install, and so think, I'll try a little fire first to see if everything is OK. And in this stove (and I suppose many modern EPA stoves) they won't burn great (meaning no secondaries and poor heat delivery from heat and wood gas going up the flue) started cold with a small load.

So in addition to the woods measured MC, I am curious to hear if you have loaded it up (>50% firebox full) and lit it off, or if your reports are for smaller loads only.

Once you have an ember bed (from an initial full load) I think subsequent loads can be somewhat smaller. How much smaller I don't know. But again, I think you regulate the heat output not just by adding less wood (which makes it burn poorly below some threshold amount TBD) but by filling it up, getting it roaring hot with secondaries, and then pulling the primary air down. Smaller loads later won't put out less heat so much as burn up faster for a shorter duration burn.

As for whether you also have an install issue...I'll leave that up to you and your installer. You have a right to be satisfied. But I will say that when I burned my old stove 'the wrong way', the chimney and masonry got a lot hotter then when I had it dialed in, hot firebox with just the right amount of air.
 

Woodsplitter67

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2017
2,037
Woolwich nj
How do you know your wood is dry, you havent tested it yet and posted your results. Do you have a moisture meter. Were trying to rule out ALL issue. I understand that sometimes we think we establishdraft when we dont and may need to wait another couple minutes, but not 45 to an hour. It sounds like your have a wet wood issue. If your not testing your wood your just guessing its dry, your wood may not be as dry as your thinking and causing some of your issues.. Moisture meters are like 20 bucks.. so for 20 bucks you have ruled out this issue... seams cheep enough and going forward you can test the wood you have and KNOW its good.. What your doing is ruling out a potential issue with out actually ruling it out, or your hopingits just a draft issue and this is it, or its an issue with how the manualis written or interpreted... Your makingthis about as painful as possible..
 

Silversniper

New Member
Jul 11, 2021
32
Australia
Some good points woodgeek and yes I certainly made the little fire error initially. Mea culpa.

But, I also get issues when I use a big load to start with. It seems like the more flame you have, the more air is needed. So, if I use a big load of dry kindling to begin with , it all lights off, requires more air than the valve can supply, so it needs the door open. Closing the door restricts the airflow in, the primary air intake valve is too mean, the flame dies off and the whole thing turns into a big smoky mess and goes out.


Initially I thought the flue wasn’t sealed. Having spoken with the installer, that doesn’t seem the case.

I think the issue may be that the unit is taking far too long to get hot, caused by the masonry being a big heat sink. Therefore the flue isn’t getting hot enough quickly enough to create the necessary draft to suck air in through the primary valve. This would also explain why it’s output is underwhelming.

But, please let me do some more testing and experimenting.
 
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EbS-P

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2019
1,473
SE North Carolina
I quickly read the thread so I may have missed it but what is the outside temp? I really think a top down fire that is built with 3 medium splits on the bottom (make sure the primary air inlet can get under them and to the back of the stove. I use two 1” sticks on the very bottom to allow this) and progressively smaller to the very top (kindling touching my baffles is normal) with kindling, should produce enough heat to heat the flue. I light it with a propane torch and can close the door almost immediately (different stove I know but just a point of reference when things are right).

I believe the insert has an insulation blanket on the baffle. It’s probably worth verifying that it is placed correctly and hasn’t shifted.

it’s a great looking fireplace you have. Stick with it and figure out what needs to be done.
Evan
 
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Woodsplitter67

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2017
2,037
Woolwich nj
Some good points woodgeek and yes I certainly made the little fire error initially. Mea culpa.

But, I also get issues when I use a big load to start with. It seems like the more flame you have, the more air is needed. So, if I use a big load of dry kindling to begin with , it all lights off, requires more air than the valve can supply, so it needs the door open. Closing the door restricts the airflow in, the primary air intake valve is too mean, the flame dies off and the whole thing turns into a big smoky mess and goes out.


Initially I thought the flue wasn’t sealed. Having spoken with the installer, that doesn’t seem the case.

I think the issue may be that the unit is taking far too long to get hot, caused by the masonry being a big heat sink. Therefore the flue isn’t getting hot enough quickly enough to create the necessary draft to suck air in through the primary valve. This would also explain why it’s output is underwhelming.

But, please let me do some more testing and experimenting.

Or it could be that your wood sucks and you dont know that its subpar..

Speaking of more testing.. did you test the wood.. will this be part of the testing and experimenting testing how wet wood burns vs dry wood.. just wondering
 
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clancey

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2021
1,734
Colorado
i have been reading all this with interest and my time is coming when I light my stove.."Oh Lordy" You will work it out and discover the reason for all of this and you are very informed as well so I have no doubt and everything will burn real pretty with less smoke as well..Does it matter how you put the wood in width and length ways--just asking when you get ready to do the wood for I am asking that for myself too....We had a nice man on here from Canada and he was wise with fires too and his advice I thought was very good and his name was Nortcan but he has been missing from here for a few weeks so I imagine he got busy with life...I bought the same stove as he did but cancelled it because I wanted some cook burners and did not like the dimensions of the stove but as far as the stove I have a feeling it would have been "great"--Morso the classic one...so we learn as we go and keep plugging and this thread is fun to read as well to see everybody"s opinion and "offers of help"..You will figure all of this out and its going to look very pretty with the finished product and i cannot wait to see that picture..Keep plugging...clancey
 
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Dmitry

Minister of Fire
Oct 4, 2014
1,062
CT
Or it could be that your wood sucks and you dont know that its subpar..

Speaking of more testing.. did you test the wood.. will this be part of the testing and experimenting testing how wet wood burns vs dry wood.. just wondering
I'm wondering too. A lot of people don't understand that a huge part of the success is dry wood. While one going to do a solar kiln, the other will trow green wood and expect a roaring fire. That is how I got my almost new Osburn 2400 for $600. Guy said it does not burn wood and he is going to his old 100 years old stove. He burned the same year wood in it.
 

Silversniper

New Member
Jul 11, 2021
32
Australia
I sort of lost count of the number of times I got told to recheck my wood moisture level - so I just politely pointed out that I was taking on board all feedback and trying all of the suggested options.

For the record, I have been using dry paper and dry cardboard and dry wood and dry air. I am not sure what else I am supposed to say.

Having to quote myself here.
 

Dmitry

Minister of Fire
Oct 4, 2014
1,062
CT
Having to quote myself here.
Sorry, I missed it. What was the moisture content on the fresh split wood surface close to the middle? I would try to test several pieces since moisture might differ depending on pieces of wood, size, drying position in a rack, etc.
What kind of moisture meter you've used?
 

Woodsplitter67

Minister of Fire
Jan 19, 2017
2,037
Woolwich nj
Having to quote myself here.

So what was the MC of the wood your burning.. are you having trouble with the moisture meter.. Have you experimented with burning dry wood yet.. just wondering
 
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