New low emission stove choice help

[aqua]

Hi
I have a very smoke sensitive neighbor and need to replace my current stove.
My present stove is an older Kent Sherwood which I love, heats our space perfectly and fits into a narrow tiled alcove that I don't want to change.
Our house is poorly insulated and we like to have overnight burns. The Kent does this but is smokey. At this moment I've narrowed down my search to 3 stoves.
Osburn 950
True north TN20 ( pacific energy)
Hearthstone Canterbury.
I am open to others.
I am an experienced wood burner and burn mostly eucalyptus and oak.
I have very little experience with modern stoves. Price is of course a consideration but I'll pay for the right stove. I'm very attracted to the hybrid cat stove for the super long burns and what appears to be lowest emissions. My favorite would be to find a small hybrid or cat stove that is North south configured. The Canterbury is close, but not ideal for my hearth. I really have searched.
My fear with the non cat stoves is that when I damp down for the night, the post burn air tubes will shut down and I'll again have a smoke problem.
So the questions are;
Will the non cat stoves be smokey when the box temps drop and the air tubes aren't firing?
And
Does anyone make a small north/south loading cat or hybrid stove.
My favorite dims are 18-20" wide x28-32" deep.
Around 40,000 btu
Under 2ppm
And lowest smoke and odor.

Thank you

 

[xman23]

This maybe hard, running any wood stove, without being noticed by a sensitive neighbor. Stoves are a bit cleaner now. But even when there is no smoke there is a smell in the air.

 

[aqua]

This maybe hard, running any wood stove, without being noticed by a sensitive neighbor. Stoves are a bit cleaner now. But even when there is no smoke there is a smell in the air.

Yes, I know that a complete burn is almost impossible, and that's why I'm leaning towards a cat stove if I can find the close fit.
This neighbor has an older Jotul CB. The ppm is 4. Her chimney is smokeless except for start up. She also never damps her fire down.
The TN20 and Osburn950 are both rated below 2ppm, but I'm worried about the lower temp performance of the non cat stoves.

 

[Highbeam]

The emissions rating has almost nothing to do with visible smoke. All modern stoves are squeaky clean when operated correctly with appropriate fuel.

What I like about cat stoves for home heating is that some of them can be turned way down for very long burns while still burning clean for that 12 to 24 hour burn.

Complaining neighbors will never be happy. It’s rare that the complainant also burns a stove. Most burners actually like an occasional whiff of smoke. Are you doing something really wrong? Why is your stove currently smoking?

 

[begreen]

We need the alcove dimensions in order to properly recommend a stove. Some, like the Canterbury, are quite radiant. Have you checked clearance requirements for it?

 

[aqua]

The emissions rating has almost nothing to do with visible smoke. All modern stoves are squeaky clean when operated correctly with appropriate fuel.

What I like about cat stoves for home heating is that some of them can be turned way down for very long burns while still burning clean for that 12 to 24 hour burn.

Complaining neighbors will never be happy. It’s rare that the complainant also burns a stove. Most burners actually like an occasional whiff of smoke. Are you doing something really wrong? Why is your stove currently smoking?

More than a neighbor, this is a good friend as well. My Kent smokes because it’s from 1990. I have radiant fire brick and use small splits to get a relatively smokeless burn when I’m running hot. It’s the evening shut down that gets smoky. I’ve resorted to just running hot and refiring in the morning.

 

[aqua]

We need the alcove dimensions in order to properly recommend a stove. Some, like the Canterbury, are quite radiant. Have you checked clearance requirements for it?

36”x36” tiled.
I won’t make legal clearances with most stoves. My Sherwood has a rear shield and is bricked inside. Respectfully speaking, I’m not worried about clearance as I can fab shield defectors if need be. What is a limiting factor is , I cant side load.
It is not a legal install but it is all well built with triple wall and air space. I understand it’s hard to advise from your point of view.
Im mostly trying to find the same physical sized modern cat stove to replace my Kent.
My other alternative was to do a cat retro just above the stove. That option seems like too much work, operator attention and more danger than just getting a newer stove.

 

[begreen]

Yes, that is too small for an alcove. Clearance reduction can only be down to 12" unless the mfg has tested for lower clearances using NFPA 211 wall shielding and published revised, UL-approved clearances in the manual. That said, I would look for a stove that has a full cabinet enclosure like the Sherwood. The PE Super or Alderlea T5 are examples.
FWIW, there is a chance that changing the stove will not satisfy the neighbor. Even with no smoke visible, there can be a smoke smell that some find offensive.

 

[Highbeam]

Right, sometimes it’s not the actual smoke that bothers them as much as the principal of burning stuff. Or they’re just bad neighbors.

 

[begreen]

I should qualify that a 36" wide alcove could qualify if it was made entirely of non-combustible materials, including all framing, surfaces, and backing materials.

 

[aqua]

Yes, that is too small for an alcove. Clearance reduction can only be down to 12" unless the mfg has tested for lower clearances using NFPA 211 wall shielding and published revised, UL-approved clearances in the manual. That said, I would look for a stove that has a full cabinet enclosure like the Sherwood. The PE Super or Alderlea T5 are examples.
FWIW, there is a chance that changing the stove will not satisfy the neighbor. Even with no smoke visible, there can be a smoke smell that some find offensive.

Yes, I understand about smoke vs odor. I am hoping that the drastic change in emissions between a 1990 stove and a modern cat stove will be noticeable. My Sherwood was an epa approved stove in Oregon in its day.
i believe it was 16 ( grams per hr or however they rate them). With cat stoves coming in in the 1 or less per hr…..I’m just hoping that transmits to lower smoke and odor. It certainly works for autos.
I just don’t want to have to do my own comparisons buy buying $3500 stoves.
I’m the case of my neighbor, my effort and even a slight reduction would be appreciated….. if I can find that stove size.

 

[bholler]

Yes, I understand about smoke vs odor. I am hoping that the drastic change in emissions between a 1990 stove and a modern cat stove will be noticeable. My Sherwood was an epa approved stove in Oregon in its day.
i believe it was 16 ( grams per hr or however they rate them). With cat stoves coming in in the 1 or less per hr…..I’m just hoping that transmits to lower smoke and odor. It certainly works for autos.
I just don’t want to have to do my own comparisons buy buying $3500 stoves.
I’m the case of my neighbor, my effort and even a slight reduction would be appreciated….. if I can find that stove size.

Any stove you choose will reduce emissions greatly if run properly. The problem is that there is no stove that will safely fit in your space if that is a combustible alcove.

 

[begreen]

Note that the TN20 is not a cat stove and the Osburn 950 is not either. Is the 950 available?

 

[Dataman]

Big difference in out put (Smoke) of Pellet Stove vs Wood Stove.

 

[bholler]

Big difference in out put (Smoke) of Pellet Stove vs Wood Stove.

Not really that big of a difference anymore. And many people have no desire to deal with a pellet stove or pay for pellets

 

[aqua]

Note that the TN20 is not a cat stove and the Osburn 950 is not either. Is the 950 available?

Yes I know both of those aren’t cat stoves.
They are low emission as per 2020 epa. and fit my size criteria.
The Osburn 950seems to be available from a couple of online sources but not from Osburn themselves.
The unicorn is a small north/south shaped cat stove.

 

[aqua]

Big difference in out put (Smoke) of Pellet Stove vs Wood Stove.

My friend burns pellets. Nice and controlled. No smoke either. If I didn’t have a lot of firewood, I would most likely just go gas instead of pellets.

 

[bholler]

My friend burns pellets. Nice and controlled. No smoke either. If I didn’t have a lot of firewood, I would most likely just go gas instead of pellets.

Yeah gas costs about the same as pellets with almost no maintenance. And most work without power. We had pellets in one shop. We switched to gas and no way I would go back

 

[aqua]

Yeah gas costs about the same as pellets with almost no maintenance. And most work without power. We had pellets in one shop. We switched to gas and no way I would go back

So maybe I should pose my question not only as looking for a small box cat stove.
I’m also interested to know if the my assumption that the non cat stoves even though epa rated, will not burn clean once the box temps lower as in an overnight, damped down burn.
Once the post combustion air tubes are not firing , will it be any cleaner burning than my old stove?

I have a strong feeling that the hybrid cat is what will be best if I can find a smallish one.

 

[bholler]

So maybe I should pose my question not only as looking for a small box cat stove.
I’m also interested to know if the my assumption that the non cat stoves even though epa rated, will not burn clean once the box temps lower as in an overnight, damped down burn.
Once the post combustion air tubes are not firing , will it be any cleaner burning than my old stove?

I have a strong feeling that the hybrid cat is what will be best if I can find a smallish one.

Noncats still burn pretty clean when run properly. I burnt a tube stove for years with no visible smoke at all.

But again I am pretty sure there is no stove on the market that will safely fit in that opening if it is a combustible alcove

 

[Dataman]

Not really that big of a difference anymore. And many people have no desire to deal with a pellet stove or pay for pellets

Cant' imagine why you would say that. Pellet stove can run slow and not produce the smoke Wood Stove will product. Pellet Stove can shutoff and produce no smoke when heat not needed. Try that with Wood Stove. On Startup on pellet stove there will be brief period of smoke (less than 1 min). I bet no Wood Stove can say that. Big Difference in Output. A typical existing wood stove, depending on the size, is rated to release from 2 grams to 7.5 grams of smoke particulates per hour. On the other hand, pellet stoves burn highly-compressed pellets of purified wood content at an extremely high temperature. The smoke content generated is minuscule compared to a wood stove: a typical pellet stove creates less than one gram of smoke particulates per hour. https://homereference.net/wood-stove-vs-pellet-stove/

 

[bholler]

Cant' imagine why you would say that. Pellet stove can run slow and not produce the smoke Wood Stove will product. Pellet Stove can shutoff and produce no smoke when heat not needed. Try that with Wood Stove. On Startup on pellet stove there will be brief period of smoke (less than 1 min). I bet no Wood Stove can say that. Big Difference in Output. A typical existing wood stove, depending on the size, is rated to release from 2 grams to 7.5 grams of smoke particulates per hour. On the other hand, pellet stoves burn highly-compressed pellets of purified wood content at an extremely high temperature. The smoke content generated is minuscule compared to a wood stove: a typical pellet stove creates less than one gram of smoke particulates per hour. https://homereference.net/wood-stove-vs-pellet-stove/

Current stoves do not produce 7.5 gph. Have you looked at the epa list???

 

[Highbeam]

Current stoves do not produce 7.5 gph.

Correct, the current version of my BK woodstove produces 0.4 grams per hour. I bet that’s cleaner than @Dataman ’s pellet stove.

 

[bholler]

Correct, the current version of my BK woodstove produces 0.4 grams per hour. I get that’s cleaner than @Dataman ’s pellet stove.

And many others are below 1 gph.

 

[Highbeam]

So maybe I should pose my question not only as looking for a small box cat stove.
I’m also interested to know if the my assumption that the non cat stoves even though epa rated, will not burn clean once the box temps lower as in an overnight, damped down burn.
Once the post combustion air tubes are not firing , will it be any cleaner burning than my old stove?

I have a strong feeling that the hybrid cat is what will be best if I can find a smallish one.

An operator can make any modern wood stove, cat, noncat, hybrid, smoke like a freight train. Or he can make any of them burn very clean. Upgrade your stove to get a modern stove that is capable of burning clean AND learn to operate it cleanly or you will be right back where you started.

Gas stoves are very clean and capable. If you got one then you could start complaining to your neighbor about his smoke!