New member,new stove and new Runaway...super 27

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Hello all. Great site!
I just installed about a 1991-1994 Pacific Energy Super 27 "model D" into an older mobile home.

Everything is up to code ( Canadian) and I had myfirst fire in it last night.
Everything seemed great at first for about the first 45 min. Then I added some more wood and because my home is in town and I wanted to make sure I wasn't smoking any of the neighbours out so I put some 18 inch 2 x 4's I had into the firebox. I also added a couple split seasoned pieces of spruce.
The fire box was by no means "jam packed". I turned the air intake down pretty much all the way leaving it open slightly. After a couple of minutes the fire just seem to keep taking off not a full on runaway but it wasn't slowing down the fire a whole lot by having the intake closed. I washed it for about 15 minutes like this and it wasn't going down at all if I open up the air intake all the way then it would really take off!
I have double wall stove pipe from the stove to the ceiling is about 57 inches. Above that I have 3 feet of chimney pipe with another 12 inch piece to the top of that for a total of 4 feet plus the chimney cap and I'm using super vent pipe.
The total chimney length would be about 8'8" if you had it together. It was a very cold winter night at -29C or -21F.
I will say I have years of knowledge with woodstoves but I have never used an EPA type stove in a household I've always had older woodstoves prior to the EPA or homemade wood stoves etc. and I have never had a situation where I couldn't control my stove and this was not fun at all for me ! Lol
I pulled a little cover off the front where I could see the linkage for the air intake and I noticed that it wouldn't completely close it off. I realize right away that this being an EPA stove was probably the reason for it and I must say I wasn't happy about it at all I like to be able to control my stove.
So I put my welding gloves on and stuck my finger over the only hole I could see but what I didn't realize was there was another hole that provided air right in front of the glass door so it would slow it down a bit but in the end I just had to put it out .
Before the situation got out of control and I over fired my stove I decided to knock down the fire and the first thing I could think of was a spray bottle with water and apparently that was a good choice because it seems to be a common method
used in a mild runaway.
It worked pretty good and I also got a bucket of water and I scooped out the coals and into the bucket until the fire was completely out which actually took quite a bit of time.

This morning once the stove was good and cool I decided to investigate a little further and figure out how this stove works as to where it sucks are from.
I just put a new baffle insulation kit in as well as a new gasket where the insert I guess you would call it or the plate that sits just under the chimney opening.
Also I put a new gasket in the glass for the door and also the door seal got a new gasket.

I heard about taking a dollar bill and sliding it in between the door and where it seals and I feel resistance all the way around the door but is it supposed to stop me from pulling the dollar bill out completely? Here in Canada we don't have dollar bills we have loonies so I used a $20 bill and it is the new style so I don't know if that will change this testing method ha ha. It did have resistance all away around the door but I was still able to pull the $20 bill out.
My big question is there something I can do so that I can just turn down my air intake and snuff out my fire? I can probably easily modify the intake so that it closes the air off a little more complete but it will still leave an opening for the port that feeds the air to the very front of the glass door. It doesn't look like it would have be hard to modify that as well but when you spend that kind of money that someone did to buy the stove originally I don't feel one should have to do that to make a stove safe.
Sorry for the long winded post but hopefully somebody will have some advice for me thanks in advance and happy new year.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

I just talked to a guy and he told me that all the newest manuals state that you are not allowed to burn manufactured wood in the stove so that could have played a role too because it was just so dry but I have had many many wood stoves in the past that I've burned all kinds of 2 x 4's and never have I had a stove that ran away on me because of it so I would still like the option to shut down the fire if need be.

 

[bcrtops]

Yes, these epa stoves are a bit different than the old smoke dragons.
Takes a bit to get used to them.
.
The PE stoves seem to really draw well, even with the min. flue height. The only time I have had a near runaway, however, was with a load of real dry Alder.

I never use small pieces/splits when the fire is going good. (Except in shoulder season for a small fire)
I close the stove down sooner than most -- often just when (or even before) the secondaries take off.
For overnight burns I load 2 or 3 of the biggest pieces I can find, preferably logs. I do not fill in the gaps. I close it down early & never had a problem except with overly dry Alder.
We are retired folks, so we feed the stove during the day frequently, rather than fully loaded & run it just a bit above fully closed down, or nearly as fully closed as you can get.

A damper might have been a good idea, & may be in your case. There are ways of restricting the air intakes -- you are not supposed to to so as they are set to keep the stove burning cleanly.

 

[Squisher]

Yah skip the manufactured lumber when the fires going, you could use it as kindling or starter pieces. Consider getting yourself a stovepipe thermometer so you can see where your temps are at. A IR gun too is handy. You want to see 230f-500 on single wall stovepipe. From the end of a load say to offgassing a fresh load. And you're gonna see from about 300-700 on the stovetop.

How tight is your door handle? You can 'tap' the catch tab on the stove for the door with a rubber mallet, lightly, to tighten the door. The handle should be positive to close/latch. Not tight, but not real light and effortless either.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

This has got my attention. As Squisher knows, I am picking up a super 27 tomorrow so I'm going to have a real close look at its air intakes and see how open the 'closed' position is. I to like the idea of a complete shut down. I'd be very interested in your solution EPA RUNAWAY, if you decide to do something about it.

 

[Woody Stover]

This has got my attention.I to like the idea of a complete shut down. I'd be very interested in your solution EPA RUNAWAY, if you decide to do something about it.

I don't think you will have a problem, but it wouldn't hurt to take a look and have a plan. He loaded with kiln-dried 2x4s and Spruce, and probably didn't start cutting air soon enough. That's a recipe for getting too much wood gassing too fast. Your chimney being outside is going to slow draft further, as will the two 90* elbows. I might have missed it, but what is your wood supply looking like? How long stacked, what species etc?

 

[eastcoastcanada]

I don't think you will have a problem, but it wouldn't hurt to take a look and have a plan. He loaded with kiln-dried 2x4s and Spruce, and probably didn't start cutting air soon enough. That's a recipe for getting too much wood gassing too fast. Your chimney being outside is going to slow draft further, as will the two 90* elbows. I might have missed it, but what is your wood supply looking like? How long stacked, what species etc?

The wood - black spruce, fir and juniper. Cut between mid October and the last of November. Junked about 16" long, stacked in 5' tall rows with 2' between each rows for air passage.
Environmental conditions - exposed to all day sun, normally very windy.It can get as cold as -15C but temps swing wildly and most of the winter is around 0C and -5C.
This is my 2017/2018 supply. I'm told by the wood burners here that 8-9 months is sufficient time for seasoning that type of wood in this area.
Birch is available to me but has to be purchased

 

[kennyp2339]

When testing the door gasket, it should feel like your "bill" would tare it pulled to hard.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

When testing the door gasket, it should feel like your "bill" would tare it pulled to hard.

Our Canadian bills are extremely thin pieces of partly transparent 'plastic' for lack of a better word. I hate them, they statically stick together all the time. They would yeld a looser result but I won't know until I get my new stove and try it. EPA RUNAWAY, have you tried this on yours yet?

 

[Woody Stover]

The wood - black spruce, fir and juniper

I haven't burned those but I imagine they might burn relatively hot and fast. In that case, bigger splits would slow down the burn. But as I said, I don't think you will have to worry too much about the stove getting away from you. If you "junked" (chunked?) the wood small, like less than 4", you might want to make some bigger splits as well...6" or a bit bigger, then you would have a mix of sized to use. Sounds like it will still get dry by next fall...

 

[eastcoastcanada]

I haven't burned those but I imagine they might burn relatively hot and fast. In that case, bigger splits would slow down the burn. But as I said, I don't think you will have to worry too much about the stove getting away from you. If you "junked" (chunked?) the wood small, like less than 4", you might want to make some bigger splits as well...6" or a bit bigger, then you would have a mix of sized to use. Sounds like it will still get dry by next fall...

It's so funny how regional terminology can be so different.....
Here, a 'Junk' is a pieces of firewood cut to fit the max stove dimension regardless of diameter. Ex. Log size 18" or 20"
I do split the wood in to cross sections not more than 6" but they are not called 'splits' until they reach a max diameter of 1.5". I believe you call them 'kindling'. Lol!
I would like to continue that discussion elsewhere, I have some questions about splitting but I don't want to hijack this thread. Sorry for getting off topic, EPA RUNAWAY.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Yah skip the manufactured lumber when the fires going, you could use it as kindling or starter pieces. Consider getting yourself a stovepipe thermometer so you can see where your temps are at. A IR gun too is handy. You want to see 230f-500 on single wall stovepipe. From the end of a load say to offgassing a fresh load. And you're gonna see from about 300-700 on the stovetop.

How tight is your door handle? You can 'tap' the catch tab on the stove for the door with a rubber mallet, lightly, to tighten the door. The handle should be positive to close/latch. Not tight, but not real light and effortless either.

I tried that but the door handle itself is worn. So either I remove it, weld a bead around it then file to fit the hole or I buy a new handle and pissibly even a new door which I don't want to do if I don't have to.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

This has got my attention. As Squisher knows, I am picking up a super 27 tomorrow so I'm going to have a real close look at its air intakes and see how open the 'closed' position is. I to like the idea of a complete shut down. I'd be very interested in your solution EPA RUNAWAY, if you decide to do something about it.

Under the door there's a cover I took off so you can see the linkage for the air intake. They have a tab welded that stops the air supply from closing off to the baffle. It would take about 1/16" cut to make it close all the way. Also there's a hole that runs up to the front of the glass but you can't block it off at all.
Would have been nice if they would have built the stove with yhe option to close just for situations like a runaway.

 

[Squisher]

Ahh bummer. Well the door needs to seal. Can you describe how loose or tight the action of the handle seems as it kworks now? If it's any bit of useful info I put a new handle into my super insert that I just bought and rebuilt this last fall. The handle isn't super tight in the door but it seals the door tight to the stove if that makes sense.

But honestly I'd start with burning it with proper sized splits/fuel first before hunting down to many other things that may be fine.

Knowing what temps your stove and pipe are getting to, will tell a lot about what's going on.

 

[Squisher]

If you have a true runaway, the best thing to do is open the door wide, and let in endless uncontrolled air. This will cool the stove down as the volume of air running through it will cool it off.

I've burned my whole life(42) with non-EPA stoves up until last year. I now have two PE's and I find them very controllable with no modifications. You need to know your temps and get the operation dialled in.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

I don't think you will have a problem, but it wouldn't hurt to take a look and have a plan. He loaded with kiln-dried 2x4s and Spruce, and probably didn't start cutting air soon enough. That's a recipe for getting too much wood gassing too fast. Your chimney being outside is going to slow draft further, as will the two 90* elbows. I might have missed it, but what is your wood supply looking like? How long stacked, what species etc?

I just put 2 pieces of 18" 2x4's in and tried to damper it down about a minute after. It just didn't want to slow down at all. I think a few factors added up to the mini runaway.
The door might not be quite as tight as it should, the extemely dry wood 2x4's, and one other thing a friend said was his woodstove seems to be hard to damper down right after he cleans the fire box (maybe extra heat is reflected off the bricks)?
So maybe all three factors played a roll?

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

If you have a true runaway, the best thing to do is open the door wide, and let in endless uncontrolled air. This will cool the stove down as the volume of air running through it will cool it off.

I've burned my whole life(42) with non-EPA stoves up until last year. I now have two PE's and I find them very controllable with no modifications. You need to know your temps and get the operation dialled in.

Id do that but had the spray bottle as well which helped quite a bit and slowed it down MUCH more than just opening the door.
Lets not forget that my chimney is only 8'8", it's straight up no bends plus I have double wall stovepipe from the stove to the chimney.
Every stove is going to react differently depending on pipe length and how hot the pipe gets etc.

 

[Squisher]

The sealing is the big unknown it seems. If the door doesn't seal up, then the stove may be impossible to tame. Even with one of our slippery $20's it should hold the bill firmly. Seem like you're going to tear it before it'll pull out, or at the least take quite a tug to 'slide it' at all. If you can pull it out fairly easily it's to loose.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Talked to a guy at a stove store and he said on the new super 27's the doors seem to fit much tighter than the old ones ( like mine 1991-94) and since my handle is a bit sloppy that might be part of the issue too. I think with regular seasoned wood, the door tightened up and some ash on top of the bricks should help it quite a bit.

 

[Squisher]

Id do that but had the spray bottle as well which helped quite a bit and slowed it down MUCH more than just opening the door.
Lets not forget that my chimney is only 8'8", it's straight up no bends plus I have double wall stovepipe from the stove to the chimney.
Every stove is going to react differently depending on pipe length and how hot the pipe gets etc.

Yes I was taking that into consideration too. With that short of a chimney you shouldn't be having a wild runaway ride, even straight up with double wall connecting. I know it's chilly too as you stated which drives draft too.

You really need to know what temperatures things are reaching. Double wall pipe needs a probe thermometer.

It could possibly be as simple as just having needed to shut the air down further, sooner. But from your description of your $20bill test I suspect the door may not be sealing effectively. Atleast it seems a possibility.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

The sealing is the big unknown it seems. If the door doesn't seal up, then the stove may be impossible to tame. Even with one of our slippery $20's it should hold the bill firmly. Seem like you're going to tear it before it'll pull out, or at the least take quite a tug to 'slide it' at all. If you can pull it out fairly easily it's to loose.

It is snugg but won't rip the bill that's for sure. When i close the door without latching it Just barley rubs the latch so I think a new handle or fixing the handle will smarten that up.

 

[Squisher]

The door does sound a bit loose. Good luck with it. They're wonderful stoves IMO, get that sucker sorted and it'll give you lots of heat and great burn times.

 

[eastcoastcanada]

Under the door there's a cover I took off so you can see the linkage for the air intake. They have a tab welded that stops the air supply from closing off to the baffle. It would take about 1/16" cut to make it close all the way. Also there's a hole that runs up to the front of the glass but you can't block it off at all.
Would have been nice if they would have built the stove with yhe option to close just for situations like a runaway.

I'll have a look at mine when I get it home and snap a picture, maybe the design changed. Keep us posted on what you do and how it works out.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Yes I was taking that into consideration too. With that short of a chimney you shouldn't be having a wild runaway ride, even straight up with double wall connecting. I know it's chilly too as you stated which drives draft too.

You really need to know what temperatures things are reaching. Double wall pipe needs a probe thermometer.

It could possibly be as simple as just having needed to shut the air down further, sooner. But from your description of your $20bill test I suspect the door may not be sealing effectively. Atleast it seems a possibility.

Yep I think you're right. I still shake my head though that these stoves are more focused on smoke elimination then safety. When It was runing away on me I popped that bottom cover off and pluged the intake with my welding glove. It slowed it down quite a bit but still not enough plus was too hot to hold the glove there. What I didn't see was the other 1/2" hole in front of the linkage ( that can't be closed at all) as well there's an opening at the very back of the stove that ( i think) stays open slightly as well although it's hard to tell. Either way that's two openings plus the possible 3rd at the back plus door might not be sealing as tight as it should.
I'm optomistic I will regain confidence in this stove soon.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

I'll have a look at mine when I get it home and snap a picture, maybe the design changed. Keep us posted on what you do and how it works out.

That would be awesome if you did that! I will see if I can figure out how to post a picture off my iphone here...
I know they made changes to the baffles and the door apparently seals tighter than the old stoves.