New Osburn 1800 Insert, where's the heat??

[Cedrusdeodara]

Hello,
I'm new to this forum, but I hope someone might be able to help me. I purchased an Osburn 1800 insert this fall and had it installed into my existing fireplace. I decided on an 1800 Osburn because of the size of my home (about 1400 total square feet, 1000 calculated square feet if you included 50% of the second floor area per Osburns recommendations). Anyway, this insert is rated to heat between 500-1800 square feet.

I've been burning primarily white and red oak, with a bit of sweetgum mixed in. All wood is seasoned.

Here's my problem. This stove does little more than my old fireplace did. The very maximum I've been able to elevate the temperature in the 13'x13' room (8' ceilings) where the stove is located is about 78 degrees. Needless to say, at that temperature adjacent to the stove, the rest of my home is not being heated without help from my oil fired boiler on colder nights.

I've followed all the manufacters recommendations as best I could (use seasoned cordwood, develop hot bed of coal, use blower and increase blower speed as heat builds, etc). I do live in an older farmhouse, however all the windows are double paned and I even took the step of installing the plastic adhesive on the inside of the windows in the rooms near the stove.

I've contacted the installer and he isn't willing to even come and take a look at the stove. He just provided me with swapout options for larger stoves (ranging in price from $1000-$1500 additional dollars for restock fee on the Osburn, installation fees, and stove price differential for the larger stove). I already have over $3k out of pocket for this Osburn. I have also attempted to contact Osburn both by phone and email, but have not heard back from them yet.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why this thing is performing so poorly? My experience with other inserts is that, when properly burning, they can elevate the temperature to a point where they'll run you outta the room. I can sit on the floor directly infront of this thing with a raging fire and the blower on high and not get overly hot?? Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I had every intention of using this thing as my primary heat source, needless to say I feel ripped off.

Cedrusdeodara

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

oops, forgot to mention, I do operate this stove with the supply all the way open to start, and generally close it down partially as the heat builds. I've also operated all the way open for extended periods. None of these scenarios did much to improve performance.

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

I didn't get any responses to my question, but I believe my wife and I are gonna bite the bullet and swap out the Osburn 1800 with a Napoleon 1402. The Napoleon has a 2.25cuft firebox, compared to the Osburns 1.8 cuft. Plus the Napoleon has 200 cfm blower, compared to 130cfm on the Osburn. I feared moving up to the next sized larger Osburns (2200 or 2400) because they both have the same 130cfm blower that my 1800 has. It just doesn't seem to put out much air.

I hope this does the trick and heats our house Can't stand hearing my oil fired boiler kicking on

Cedrus

 

[gpcollen1]

I'll just chime in and say that you are definitely doing something wrong. I am not at all familiar with the stove but you should be able to heat the heck out of a room that size and let it flow to the rest of the house.

Here are the normal questions:
- are you sure the wood is seasoned?
- are you filling that firebox once you get it going?
- what kind of stove top temps are you getting?
- are you getting good secondary combustion?
- What is your chimney set up - do you have a full liner - how tall - what size??

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

Thanks for the questions:

1. Is the wood seasoned? I have burned 1yr+ seasoned wood and standing dead wood that I cut this fall (selecting the driest most seasoned pieces - mainly white oak and sweetgum). The 1yr seasoned wood (cherry) didn't burn siginificantly hotter than the fall cut dead wood. My brother burns the same wood I do in his Lennox "Legacy" stove and his stove throws out some serious heat, so I can't point to the wood as the problem.

2. Once I've built a good hot coal bed, I usually feed 2 or 3 pieces at a time. Just enough to get it rolling, but not enough to smother the coals. The little firebox cannot handle much more than 3 pieces.

3. I unfortunately have not done stove temps. I will need to do this and get back to you. Where do I test, at the blower discharge point?

4. Secondary combusion? I am a newby, but if secondary combustion referres to the swirling vortex looking flames that blow down from the the top of the stove at the recirculation vents, then yes I am getting good secondary combustion.

5. I do have a full liner that was installed along with the stove. It is 25' and it is 6" diameter.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

Oh, one other quick point. I was inspecting the blower the other night to ensure nothing was blocking any airflow. I noticed at the base of the stove where the stove and the faceplate meet, there seemed to be some air turbulence within the fireplace firebox, almost as though flu air around the insert might be pulling air/heat out of my house or allowing it to blow into the room??? It was difficult to tell if air was being pulled out of the room or pushed into the room, I just noted some ash kinda blowing around in a small opening where the insert and the surround meet. Is that normal? In other words, should air be moving in or out in the area around between the fireplace and the insert and/or the area between the 12" terra cotta flu and the 6" double-walled sleeve? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I am very new to high efficient wood burning.

 

[Chettt]

Could it be weak attic insulation? Do you get a lot of ice drips from the roof even when the temperatures stay below freezing. "Old farmhouse" kind of leads me in that direction together with the fact that you are getting a good secondary burn. You've probably tried not turning on the blower until later to let the heat build up more in the stove. I don't think I would buy a bigger unit just yet.

good luck.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

How are you getting heat from the stove room to the rest of the house? If it's not an open floor plan, then you'll need some small fans at floor level blowing colder air from the doorways toward the stove. It won't much matter if you're smelting iron ore in that room if you cant get the heat to the cold areas.

 

[DAKSY]

Was your liner installed with a damper block-off plate or unfaced fiberglas insulation in the damper area?
Was there insulation placed around the liner under the chimney cap/plate?
If not, you will be losing heat up your flue the same way your fireplace would...
Might wanna ask your installer...

 

[webbie]

Yeah, check on the installation of a block off plate.
Also remember that inserts can lose heat to exterior masonry fireplaces.......some people actually leave the panel off, and have the stove sit there (hearth stove) so the max heat is gained. Obviously you need a tight fitting block off plate at the fireplace top to do this.

As to the room temperature - and whole house heating. Sometimes NOT being able to get the temperature higher in the room is a good thing...it can mean a lot of heat is flowing out of that room. As to heating the whole house, I always advised my customers to think of a stove as 65-85% of their heat load, so I would take all manufacturers claims with a grain of salt.

 

[gpcollen1]

Good point about heat flow and room temp - sometimes i think the ability to cook yourself out of a room is a given.

 

[Hanko]

Did you make sure you lit it? Might check that

 

[fredarm]

I wouldn't be too quick to blame the size of the firebox. My PE Vista insert has about a 1.5 cu ft firebox, no block-off plate or insulation, with a single-wall pipe to the top of the two-story exterior chimney (I know, I know...). It takes a little while to get up to temperature (undoubtably due to the lack of block-off plate and insulation) but once its going I have no trouble heating the downstairs of our colonial to the 70's (high 70's in the living room with the stove, low 70's further away), with enough heat finding its way upstairs to keep it in the 60's. The one place where the small firebox really affects the heat output is on overnight burns. It's can't hold a fire more than about 6 hours no matter how full I stuff it with oak, so the heat does kick on first thing in the morning. But I expected that, so it's not an issue.

 

[Abhoth]

I'm running an Osburn 1800i as I type... installed it a couple of years ago. No block-off plate or insulation as above but it's an interior fireplace/chimney so that helps a bit... and this thing will cook us right out of here if we're not careful! Gets up to temp without any issues at all and I generally run it at 400 - 450+ (stovetop temp gauge). Keeps it 75 + or - depending, burning Birch by the by. So not sure what the problem could be with the OP's installation... good stove, love it!

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

Wow! Alot of great comments and questions.

Chettt: I replaced all insulation in my attic three years ago (included styrofoam "airpocket" between insulation and roof. Covered over in wood panel.

Adios pantalones: You asked about how I supply heat to the rest of the house. The insert is centrally located in my home, one room away from the stairs. The top of the stairs is centrally located to the three BRs and Bath upstairs. I do have two rooms on the back of the house and one BR upstairs that don't get great convectional heating and I'm considering doing something with ceiling vents/registers or possibly duct, but I want to be sure I have heat at the source first.

Daksky: You asked about a blockoff plate or insulation around the cap plate. The installer told me that a blockoff plate was not necessary because he fully insulated below the cap plate and SS screen.

Webmaster: I guess I am losing some heat to the fireplace. It was installed into a Heatalater firebox with two passive "vents" on either side of the fireplace. I recovered the fireplace with tile and an oak mantle before putting the insert in, but I kept the two side vents open by cutting openings on both sides of the mantle and covering with screens. As for not being too concerned about lack of heat buildup in the room, I can say that the adjacent room to the stove room is another 13*13' room with the stairs, the opening is a 10' wide archway, so alot of heat exchange occurs, and although the not alot of heat is generated in the stove room, the upstairs does seems to get a nice portion of the heat being produced.

Hanko: You asked if I lit the stove. A couple of cold nights when I was shivering a room away from a roaring fire, I too had to check if it was lit or just a VCR movie of a fire. he he.

I still need to get an appropriate thermometer, but I obligated today to go with a larger stove. I actually acquired some 2yr aged oak and cherry and did a test this morning. I developed a hot bed of coal and kept feeding the well dried wood, still no temps over 78 or so in the room. I might get blasted out of my house with the new stove, but I haven't yet dealt with the two back rooms and one upstairs BR that are not properly heated yet.

Anyway, thanks soo much for all the help. This is an excellent and very well attended forum. I will definitely visit and post (when appropriate). Thanks for all your help.

Brian
Cedrusdeodara

Stihl 361, Jonsered turbo (cant remember model number)
Speeco Specialty Products splitter (3pt hitch hydraulic model)
Osburn 1800 Insert, soon to be Napoleon 1402 insert

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

Quick update,

I'll be swapping out the Osburn 1800 this weekend with a new Napoleon 1402 (25% bigger firebox and more than twice the blower capacity). I am also going to install a blockoff plate to ensure no backdraft up the old chimney.

Quick question about creosote and soot buildup.... I swept my 6" stainless liner tonight for the first time (decided to buy my own 6" head and flex rods from Lowes tonight). Anyway, I generated about 6 full 16oz coffee cups full of creosote/soot, thats roughly 100 floz. or 75% or so of a gallon jug That is after operating the new Osburn 1800 and new 6" homesaver SS liner for only 2 months. My liner is abotu 25' long from stove top to cap. Does that creosote/soot generation rate sound about right? I was glad I swept the liner (and bought the sweep equipment) after I saw the potential fuel that lined my sleeve.

Does that sound like:
1) about right,
2) clean after 2month burn,
3) A little on the dirty side,
4) wow, was your fire like 300 degrees and where you burning soaking wet trees with the leaves still on them?

Just need a reality check.

Brian

Napoleon 1402 (very soon)
Stihl MS 361
Spee Co 22 ton splitter

 

[KateC]

Hi Cedrus---
Sorry late finding your post---and sorry you're having to blame the stove. I have the same unit in the same type Heatform and had similar issues initially for which I also cursed the poor stove. Whatever you do, if this is a Heatform, NOT a Heatilator prefab, try blocking off those vents on either side----I stuffed them with insulation and then covered them with duct-wrap foil stuff and it was night/day difference. Most installers will say you don't 'need' a lower blockoff, and code-wise you don't, but it also makes a huge difference. I sometimes wish I had a bigger stove if only not to have to tend it so often but as we have improved on the exterior chimney/heatform vent situation and also worked on adding insulation wherever possible in the house, our little Ossie is running like a champ. But since you're swapping out anyway, consider doing a blockoff at the lower damper at the same time----I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[KateC]

Meant to add that this is our third season with the stove and each of the two previous winters only accumulated about a half coffee can of powdery soot---but that was burning evenings only and personally I'm a wood Nazi---if it ain't dry, it ain't going in my stove, period. I also burn pretty hot most of the time as I am here full time and don't often have to stuff it/snuff it to get long burns.

Good luck.

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

Hi Kate,
Thanks for the post. Are you saying that the top and bottom passive (I say passive because they don't have a blower and they only seem to be adjacent to the firebox to allow conduction into the vents) should be closed or blocked off from this style prefab fireplace/firebox? I recovered this fireplace prior to the insert install and I took great pains to preserve the vents, cutting holes in the oak mantal on either sides. My installer even said it "was a good idea" to preserve these vents. I kinda thought that too from a code/safety standpoint I should preserve those vents, although I didn't (and still don't) know exactly why they are there or what they do. You plugged them up and found a big increase in heat production??

I will continue with the upsize and the blockoff plate regardless. The additional $$ was about $600, because I am doing the swapout myself and avoiding $500 labor install costs.

Thanks so much for your feedback. Ironic if we have the same model, same problems and Same prefab firebox.

Brian

Napoleon 1402
Stihl MS 361
Spee Co 22 ton splitter

 

[KateC]

Mine is a Heatform----which is a regular masonry/brick fireplace/chimney but the firebox itself is metal, circa 1950----there was also a pipe grate on the floor of the fireplace and a motor tucked into one of the bottom vents to push the heated air out out of the pipes. Cold air would get sucked in the lower vents, circulate between the metal firebox and masonry, then 'ooze' out the top vents. Sort of a half-baked attempt at making a regular heat-sucker fireplace more efficient----pbbbt. I don't know much about prefabs, as they are an entirely different thing so do a quick search here. The vent blocking I did helps prevent room air getting sucked into the space around the insert and cooling it down and/or messing with the chimney draft as I could feel cold air getting pulled in around the surround----It's also totally reversible as in if I were to find out it's a no-no I can just open them back up, but so far so good. Not knowing if you have a Heatform, or Heatilator pre-fab though I wouldn't presume to advise you to do the same.

 

[Cedrusdeodara]

Kate,
You are not advising me to do anything, only sharing your own experience, which might point me in a direction that could solve my problems, or at least shed a little light on them. Thanks so much for you suggestions. My installer told me that I didn't have to worry about high temps coming from any of those vents, which made me question what their value was in the first place. Maybe my old unit had a blower, I never saw it. It too was installed in the 50's, as I saw the installers initials and date installed when I resheetrocked that room, (I believe it was 1956).

Anyway, thanks for your feedbacks. From the amount of soot you generated, it surely sounds like my unit wasn't burning as hot as it could've/should've. The new unit and blockoff plate should cure that.

Regards,
Brian

Napoleon 1402
Stihl MS 361
Spee Co 22 ton splitter
Callus on both hands

 

[karl]

If a 1.8 fire box isn't cutting it. I doub a 2.25 is going to change things alot. I would go with the biggest thing you can get in there.

 

[KateC]

Brian---
I really hope the new larger stove helps but felt compelled to defend the Osburn since it's not one of THE stoves most talked about here, and also because your issues seemed so similar to my own. As it turned out the set-up the stove was in (plus a 'bit' of user error) was the problem and not the stove or it's size. My house is a leaky ranch over an unfinished basement so although the sqft rating for the stove is right on, I was expecting a miracle. My dealer/installer is also a bozo and insisted the vents wouldn't affect anything, and a block-off wouldn't do a dang thing. Come to find out from a second opinion that it was a shoddy install from the get-go and not the stove at all.
I would just hate to see you back here wondering why the new bigger stove isn't cutting it either---very well could be a number of other things. Please stick around here with us as I'm really interested in how you make out.

 

[67ref]

oh boy, sounds like trouble with the 1800i, which is being installed here on Tuesday.

really don't have time for this, need to generate some heat and the dealer swore up and down on this unit.
best heat my house a good portion, we are 2400 sft, 1200 upstairs, 1200 basement, living room is 440, kitchen is 380sft.
hallway and bedrooms I do not care to be too warm as sleeping in a warm room is simply impossible for us.

our doorways are not really doorways, there are no overhead beams to stop any airflor from the living room
into the kitchen or down the hallway for that matter.

I had asked the dealer if it was an insulated liner to which I was told it was not.

I'l be sure to question the installers on the blocking off of the flue, whether it be done
at the top or at the bottom plate.

you got me all worried now ....

I was given to understand this Osburn 1800i was going to do us justice.

fingers crossed, time will tell.

thank you for the info.

 

[begreen]

Is the stove going upstairs or the basement? If it's upstairs and mostly heating just the livingroom/kitchen, it may be ok. If it's going in the basement, I suspect it will be undersized for heating the house. But if the goal is just to heat the basement, then it may work out ok.

FWIW, if the chimney is exterior, I'd insist on the liner being insulated and a damper block-off plate installed.