New owner of a Papa Bear VI a few questions (new burner)

[Opie]

Hi Everyone,

Fantastic site I am overwhelmed by the knowledge on this forum. It seems as though there will never be a shortage of thing to learn here. Finally a place to channel my fascination with fire! We recently bought a house with a Papa Bear VI in the basement. It is a beast of a stove! We spend a day getting all the rust off the top and making it look nice (the top is fairly pitted but looks much nicer now).

I have a few questions for any and all experts here. First will I be OK burning with this stove this year? The bricks and supports aren't in the greatest condition. We had a chimney sweep come through and he said it should be fine for this season but the bricks should be replaced.

I am planning to put a baffle plate in but the small shelf under the rear vent is angled up towards the rear vent there is probably less than 1/4" gap between them. Would it be an issue just to cut a small portion of the center out so the plate will sit right up against the rear vent and is supported on either side on the shelf below. Or should I attempt to bend that little shelf under the vent down to create more space between it and the rear vent

And on the same topic does the plate need to be bent so it will sit across the top row of bricks then angle down to block the rear vent and line up with the shelf? here's a very crude dash drawing ----\__

And last one (I have tons but don't want to be a bother until I read all I can here) Should we have a Damper on the straight pipe after the stove. I have heard both yes and no with seemly valid points to both.

Our pipe goes into the wall then up a lined chimney. I believe the liner is 6" the whole way up. Unfortunately I do not have a ton of info on what is actually in the chimney but the pipe in the basement and the cap on top of the chimney are both 6 inches and looking down the chimney it doesn't seem to flare out or anything.

Side note: It may be common practice but the chimney cap looks sloppy to me. Who ever did it actually took down some broken brick making the square opening larger then covered the whole chimney with a flat plate maybe 16x16" and the 6inch cap comes out of that. It just looks like it will catch rain or snow. Problem for another day i guess.

We have had one day of fire in it so far and it seemed to do well At one point the stove pipe got really hot and the basement was semi smokey but that may have been the stove black buring off. I am super excited for this stove. I just which it had a glass door so i could watch it!

Thank you everyone for the help Look forward to learning a lot from all of you!

 

[coaly]

Welcome to the forum;
Never bent a baffle, but notching the baffle plate works good. I've even notched some when the plate was straight. It does encroach on the outlet doing that so I wouldn't restrict the flow if connected to a larger flue that needs more heat. You should be fine with 6 inch all the way.

Cracked bricks are not a problem, missing pieces or missing an entire brick should be replaced. No problem if bottoms are cracked, you should be burning on an inch of ash anyway.

The manual does not require a damper in the pipe. I have used Fishers only with insulated chimneys in my own home and operated them with masonry interior and exterior elsewhere. You can always slow the fire down closing the air dampers. But that can also snuff it and deprive it of oxygen causing unnecessary smoke. So when starting it with lots of kindling, it wants to roar up the stack not keeping the heat in the stove to start larger pieces. That is when I close the damper partially to slow the fire, yet it gives it the oxygen it needs to get going. I just close it enough to take the sound away and know all the heat isn't roaring up the chimney. Connecting to a larger existing fireplace flue may need all the heat it can get up the flue so it wouldn't be used much. When you have a pile of coals and no smoke, you can extend burn times by closing the damper and leaving the air intake open slightly to keep the pile glowing. It can hold a pile of coals all day and be ready to fire it back up before night. Not sure what you would have left if you leave the damper open.

The first fire after sitting will smell and new pipe will smoke off. It should be paint, not stove black. Stove Black is more like a polish that contains wax and pigments to make it black. It is rubbed on like car wax and buffed when dry to a shine. It works good on rough cast iron but you get swirl marks and it makes a mess on the smooth surface of steel plate or machined surfaces. It is not waterproof and will rust if water is spilled on it. Rust will appear from humidity over the summer and will need to be redone from time to time. Fisher used paint only on both steel plate and the cast iron doors.
Your first fire after bricks are allowed to absorb moisture from the atmosphere over the summer won't seem to be as hot either. Once the moisture is totally evaporated you normally feel more heat from the next fire. It's not what you're doing, the moisture robs the stove of a lot of BTU just as damp or unseasoned wood does.

The main idea of having no glass was radiating heat with the cast iron door and simplicity. Breaking a glass by closing the door with a piece of wood too long is a disaster when that is your only heat source. (At that point you would be VERY glad to have a damper in the vent pipe to control the fire) It also makes the stove more complex with an air wash system over the glass. The stoves designed for fire viewing were made wider for a larger view with 2 doors and won't take the log size your Papa will. You will find with the narrow deep firebox you should have a good pile of charcoal and coals at the rear and be able to remove a little ash from the front each day. Then rake coals ahead to reload on them. That way you never have to leave it go out to empty ash. That type of burning doesn't work near as well in a shallow double door stove. You have a much larger cook top than a Fireplace Series type too. So that's the trade off being able to view the fire.
You can always make a screen for open door burning with the screen in place. Then a damper is required as it becomes the only control with the door open. My first Fisher was a Goldilocks with double doors and a screen. I can count the number of times we used the screen on one hand. They don't heat much when used as a fireplace, just what you would expect from a fireplace ! When we tried to get it going with damp wood, putting the screen in got it going with much more air than it would have had. That's the only reason I'd recommend burning with a screen, not to view the fire with solid doors. (I finally built a wood shelter)

 

[Opie]

Coaly,

Thank you for the welcome and the informative responses. Fair warning more questions below. We were thinking the smoke may have been from the new pipe after we saw all the upc tags burnt off. Glad to hear it wasn't an error in our burning. Will using the stove black hurt anything? I thought it was the correct product to use. Honestly I did not research the material the stove was made of, seeing the rust I automatically assumed it was cast iron. The sides seemed painted so we only blacked the door and the top. The stove looks much better now regardless. In the future high temperature paint should be used?

The damper seems like it has more benefits than cons. Is it actually a magnet for creosote or have I heard wrong? Ill have to research how to install one on a single walled pipe.

So I am kind of baffled by this baffle (clever right?) The fire brick on the top course go to the back of the stove and if I were to lay a piece of steel on top of those bricks/supports and push it to the back it seems like it would leave 1/4 to 1/3 of the rear vent open underneath the baffle. Am I overlooking something simple or does it not matter if that portion is open because it still stops a great deal of heat from escaping. Any advice?

Before work I got up on the roof to take a few pictures of the chimney cap. It looks like it is just a flexible pipe going into the chimney. Can this be cleaned with brush or should I leave it to a professional sweep for now? I did not have time to take off the square plate to see if it is insulated but I have a feeling it is not. That square plate almost looks like it is set into the mortar so it may be a chore to get off. Does the creosote (assumed creosote) shown in the chimney3 picture look normal for only have burned once? The wood is well seasoned. except maybe 1 or 2 pieces we burnt

I am happy with this stove I don't really need the glass front I can just leave the door open a crack for a few minutes after I add some wood and convince myself I am just doing it to burn stuff off in the chimney. Its nice when picking out wood to be able to fit some long pieces. I will say I am not looking forward to any future work in the back of the stove (firebricks etc) seems like it might be a challenge to get back there even with lanky arms! Is it strange to wish for colder weather so the stove can be fired up?

Thanks again for all the help

 

[coaly]

Once stove black is put on, it is horrible to get off. Paint usually lifts since it can't adhere. Smooth steel plate is easier to remove it from than rough cast. It was made for cast iron antique stoves and the machined polished top was oiled with vegetable oil or lard to season like a cast iron pan. You can wipe with lacquer thinner until it seems clean, fire it up , and when it cools it's black again. Almost like it was never touched ! A wire wheel and thinner, then fire and do it again may allow you to go back to paint. Cast iron is more porous. They are actually the same material melted down. Cast is poured and cools in a mold, steel is poured then pressed or rolled into shape. So cast is more open and accepts oils and wax more than plate. Since it was already painted, that will stop most penetration of the stove black. The top will eventually wear off. The door may never accept paint. You may end up removing any rust each year and reblacking the door. A little more maintenance than paint. I have a Griswold damper collection that I keep stove blacked to protect them. They can be shined as well. They are rough and that is what the stove black is for.

A damper doesn't form creosote, it's the improper use. With it open, it's like it isn't even there. New ones have very small holes near the shaft. Older ones have a metered hole in the center so they could be closed fully overnight on old stoves that leaked air in and needed to be slowed down to accomplish an overnight burn. Like an idle bypass in a throttle plate. You have a flexible lined chimney that looks clean, so an older damper may be OK closed fully overnight, and a newer one with small holes would need to be left open more. It is trial and error and you need to check for creosote accumulation so you know where to operate it. Condensation starts at 250* f. so that's what makes the smoke particles stick forming creosote fast. The better the flue (indoor, outdoor, insulated, or too large) the hotter it stays all the way to the top and the less heat you need to leave up it. You will learn what pipe temp to stay above mid burn keeping accumulation to a minimum.

eBay is the place to find the old style if that's what you want. If others operate the stove it prevents them from closing it off fully as well.

Take a piece of cardboard and cut to a trial baffle size. Lay it on top of the upper brick retainers and push to the back tipping the rear down to set on the small plate. That gives you the angle it would set at. Many stoves don't have the second course of brick, so I set bricks on the sides to hold front of baffle up. You already have the upper bricks there. The smoke space (the opening the exhaust travels through) MUST remain no smaller than stove outlet and flue. In your case 28.26 square inches. Once you get the size cardboard you need for the angle your stove allows, you have a template to cut your steel plate. It's so easy putting them in, I've made templates in a cold stove and went back with them in operation to install them. They drop right in.

Damper installation is simple; It was done in the 1800's with a nail or the pointed shaft driven through the pipe. Most people drill the pipe today, but you can slip the pipe over a board supported on the ends and drive a nail through the pipe sides.........
In the first pipe section, you drill a hole the size of damper rod, take damper apart, get the feel of putting the damper together with two hands, then put it in the pipe and install the rod. Quite simple. The handle gives you an idea of damper plate direction.

By the end of winter we're ready for a warm day up here. Down your way, I'd be waiting for cold weather too.

 

[Opie]

Thanks for the info.

The top of my stove was quite rusty and pitted. It was neglected there was not much if any paint on the top. The door had paint on it but I used my stove black rag to go over a few parts. Hopefully I did not screw it up to bad. Using the stove black wont harm the stove if i leave it on there? painting is just how it should be done? It seems stove black is pretty prevalent around here in all the fire place sections of stores so I thought it was the right move. Oh well live and learn

I think I am going to work on the baffle plate now and see how that works out then focus on the damper I don't want to add to many elements at once Id rather understand each on their own. From your description adding the baffle seems pretty easy. And I had no idea griswold made dampers. Also going to have to read more about creosote and chimney sweeping. Thanks again

Hope the snow today wasn't to bad for you down here was a disappointment

Happy Thanksgiving

 

[coaly]

Once fired it's baked in. Doesn't hurt anything to keep using it. It's just more maintenance since it wears off quicker than paint and needs to be redone when cold.

Forgot to mention, in desperation I even tried a torch on a cast door that was blacked. I thought the extreme heat directly to the coating may burn it off. So I did it like you would burn paint off with a torch. It looked like the stove black was gone, so I wiped it with thinner before paint, and sure enough the rag came up black after it had cooled. I gave up and blacked that door. That stove is used in a log cabin, and after each summer the door needs a quick wire wheeling and another application. Stove black doesn't fill in the fine detail on antiques and it allows the texture to show through, so it has it's place.

6 to 8" of heavy wet snow all day brought down trees and our electric was down Noon to midnight. Here's the Poconos this morning;

 

[Opie]

Coaly,

When you make baffle plates for the mama and papa bears do you try to have the plate line up with the lower portion of the top of the stove. So it angles up from the shelf in the rear below the exit then the opposite end of the baffle plate lines up with the lower portion of the top of the stove.

Does it matter where the baffle "points" can it be pointing towards the higher portion of the stove so long as the opening is big enough?

I ask because I am thinking about sliding the plate between the two angle irons on the sides to the back shelf and let it sit at that angle.


Also a more important question. Can you recommend a book or site how to burn in older stoves it seems like a lot of what I read is pertaining to new stoves. So I get a lot of conflicting info.

We have only burned a few times but it seems like our burn times at optimal temperatures never last more than a few hours if I'm lucky. I want to make sure im not doing something wrong. I need to install a damper I'm sure. The draft sounds almost to good sometime with air rushing into the inlets it will have a nices woosh or whistle depending how the inlets are set. I want to get the most efficient burns I can so my neighbors don't become enemies and we are warm. A lot to learn and I don't want to embed bad habits from the start.

Thanks for all the knowledge so far

 

[coaly]

The baffle makes for the best neighbors! I aim it towards the lower bend in the top.
Your on the right track.

Towards the back of the manual gives burning tips and the last page usually has books listed. Here's a little tip, check out the manuals for the other stoves too. The back page lists different books. Here's all of them; https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fisher-stove-manuals-us.121743/ Then search eBay with titles and authors.

You'll find by slowing the air sound by closing dampers it will start to deprive it of oxygen as well and smoke. Tilting a damper closed until it quiets down slows the draft but allows it to get enough oxygen preventing smoke. You're always going to get smoke with a cold stove and reloading, but you should have a clean stack once up to temp.

 

[Opie]

Thanks for the idea for the books and baffle. I thought I responded sooner maybe I did not send it on my phone. Don't want to appear ungrateful for the help. Here is a current picture of my stopping point tonight for the baffle. It is 14" wide and 12.5" long. I had it all lined up with my cardboard but did not account for the width of the 5/16 plate. My angle irons are in my way. So I currently have it sitting on top of the back row of brick and resting on the angle irons. Its close to a 45 and it is about 8 inches from the lower bend so no worry about to short of exhaust space! not what I wanted but jees does that thing get heavy after awhile! I may turn the plate and have it 12.5" wide and 14" long i think i can configure it to work. It will just be a bummer to lose that 1.5" of heat on the sides. It was planned to have the plate sit on a side ways firebrick but trying to position the plate knocked the brick out. I ran out of strength or patience or both so there is sits for now, still burn worthy if we need it. Thanks again for the help

 

[coaly]

I take a piece of firewood longer than the stove is wide and wedge it across the stove to push the bricks tight against the sides. Prevents them from crashing on you, watching the cloud of ash rise in your face while holding the plate at arms length...... been there. That gives you something to rest the plate on. Once the plate rests on bricks, they are fairly sturdy. I ran a Mama Bear all winter one year without knocking them down. I put one in for a friend and he knocked his down loading it right away. So I welded angle iron on the plate to hold the bricks outward to the sides of the stove.



If you wanted to keep it where it is, would a piece of 1/2 inch rebar across the stove (side sheet to side sheet length) sit on the brick top so the angle iron retainer prevents it from sliding forward?

 

[coaly]

Here's a picture of a Papa that didn't have the upper bricks. Slid plate between original shelf and outlet and propped bricks under sides. Only had one brick under one side since it was a smoke and temp test. I think that was a 2 inch smoke space measured to the bottom bend. Some just fall in easier than others.

 

[Opie]

Thanks for the idea of the rebar. I had a dinky 1/4 rod laying around I was going to use cause I couldn't think of anything on hand, rebar is a great idea.

Because mine has the brick already and my plate is cut to the width of the brick I think I'm going to notch some out of my brick and set the rebar in the notch lowering the angle of my plate and hopefully clearing that angle iron. I'll post up a picture when I can get to it and if it works.

Do you recall how long that plate in the papa is? I think I may have shorted myself an inch or so.

Thanks for keeping up with all my posts

 

[coaly]

The rebar in a notched brick should work great. You should be able to install the rebar and slide the plate over it, and the back will drop right into place.

That one is 17 X 14 in a I or II. (plate is much shorter front to back with less angle) I have the paperwork in the shop, I'll check tomorrow to be sure.
17 1/4 fits perfect on a straight stove that is 17 1/2 across the inside as it should be. You did good that way with the second course of brick.
When you drop it down in the back like yours, the width (front to back) increases by a lot. That's why I never give exact measurements and tell people to measure. Depending on brick and retainers, it varies where it needs to go.

The first time you light it, you're going to look for smoke and say, wow that was so worth it !