New Stove in Old Walk-In Fireplace - Please help!

[Mudsurfer1234]

Hi all, first post and looking for some help.

My fiance and I are renovating an old farmhouse that's been in her family for the past 150 years or so (not 100% sure of when it was built, but we think between 1860 and 1870). It was heated with oil and hot water baseboards, but we removed that system in order to add additional insulation; we basically put up 2x8 framing behind all the exterior walls and will fill that with fiberglass. Also did new windows throughout, and also put in a high-efficiency propane system with central air as well. So we should be pretty well insulated and sealed up by the time we are finished.

One of the focal points of the project though is the fireplace in the living room. It's solid brick from floor to ceiling, 7' wide, with a 6' wide opening that's about 30" deep. What we want to do is put a free-standing wood stove in the opening. I already have an installer ready to drop in an insulated liner, fabricate a block-off plate at the top of the opening, and install a stove for us. The problem we are running in to is the 13" by 8" timber lintel. Everything inside the fireplace is non-combustible, and the exterior wall behind the fireplace is brick construction, so no combustibles to be found.

I'm looking for insight from anyone that has done something similar to this before (Ashful has a thread with a setup very similar to our's), and any suggestions on heat shielding for the wood beam/lintel.

Also, all of the clearances we reference for pretty much any stove are for distances to nearest combustible material. The only combustible material in our situation is the beam. What we want to do is push the stove as far into the opening as possible so the existing 15" hearth extension allows for adequate floor protection in front of the stove glass. How close to a non-combustible wall can we get the back of the stove? We are hoping to have it about 2" to 4" from the back wall of the fireplace, which is just plaster over brick.

I have attached several drawings I made of our fireplace with our preferred stove shown for reference (a Jotul F50 TL), as well as a few pictures. Please ignore the mess though, I'm in the process of repointing all the brick-work myself while our contractors work on the rest of the house.

Thanks for any input!
Scott

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Sounds like a nice project. Heat trapped in the fireplace will be an issue so be sure to get a stove with a blower. Will there be good clearance for safe and convenient use of the Jotul F50 top loading feature? If not you may want to consider the F55 instead.

Ashful found wood also up in the chimney. The chimney should be fully inspected and cleaned first. This will need a fully insulated, zero-clearance liner. Then about the only option I can see is to add a heat shield for the beam set on 1" non-combustible spacers.

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

Thanks for the quick reply Begreen. There should be about 28" to 30" of space between the top of the stove and the beam, depending on the heat shield. We are also considering the F55 and the 500 Oslo as well depending on size (house is about 2,300 sq. ft. with a finished 500 sq. ft. attic space).

And yes, we have a fully insulated liner spec'd out. Would having the heat shield below the beam (bent to follow the angle as it goes into the fireplace) make this a "legal" install?

We have 2 stove dealers/installers that make it sound like this will work, and 1 that is "pretty darn sure" that any stove in there wouldn't be up to code since the wood is lower than 84" (which is what most manufacturers seem to use for alcove requirements). My township doesn't have any input regarding the clearances, so no help there.

Thanks again,
Scott

 

[begreen]

"Legal" is going to be up to the inspecting authority. The caveat about stove clearance is valid thus the need for the inspector to sign off on a variance. I like Jotuls but in this case you might want to consider stoves with a convective top to lower that clearance requirement. The Blaze King Ashford has a lower clearance of 72". You could ask @BKVP if that could be halved with a proper heat shield on the beam. This is not an alcove install so it may be ok. Also look at the new Quadrafire Explorer III and the Hearthstone Manchester which both have convective tops. The Quad has fireplace installation guidelines.

 

[iamlucky13]

Jotul's documentation says 8" clearance to non-combustible materials in the rear and 6" on each side.

They also call for 59" alcove height for a protected surface, so it sounds like you have 1.5" to shield that lintel and comply with Jotul's specs, but the local building department has final say, not Jotul.

Actually, reading again, you might have more room, depending whether that lintel is considered an alcove ceiling, or a combustible mantle. Since it doesn't appear to be in contact with any other combustible materials, I'm guessing it could be considered a mantel. "Mantel and trim clearances may be reduced by 50% with the use of shielding constructed in accordance with NFPA 211 specifications." That would mean a shielded mantel could be as close as 17.5" to the top of the unit. Again, that assumes your local code is not more restrictive than NFPA or whatever Jotul's instructions are based on.

You might be able to take a drawing showing your clearances and shielding plan in to consult with an inspector and get an opinion before doing any work.

Just in case you haven't looked up the manual yet, see the link here. Clearances start on page 11:
(broken link removed to http://jotul.com/us/products/stoves/jotul-f-50-tl-rangeley#technical-area)

The heart extension requirement, if I remember right, is measured from the stove door, not the front edge of the stove. That might give you a little more leeway in figuring out how far in or out of the fireplace to put the stove.

 

[begreen]

This is a fireplace install, not an alcove install. There is no combustible ceiling involved, nor combustible side walls. Only the mantel clearance is in question.

 

[Jo191145]

This is a fireplace install, not an alcove install. There is no combustible ceiling involved, nor combustible side walls. Only the mantel clearance is in question.

Yes but that isn't a mantle. It's a wood lintel. Which makes the fireplace illegal.
It's really going to be up to the inspector if he'll sign off on anything.

 

[begreen]

Correct you are, it's a lintel. Seems like a somewhat common practice with large old fireplaces in PA. Hopefully they can work it out with the inspector.

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

I am actually going to stop by my township office to pick up some permitting paperwork this afternoon, I'll see if I can show the code enforcement office our drawings/plans and get his input. Thanks all for the info so far. I'm hoping we can get something figured out by the time it starts getting cold!

 

[Jo191145]

Correct you are, it's a lintel. Seems like a somewhat common practice with large old fireplaces in PA. Hopefully they can work it out with the inspector.

Somewhat common practice in PA? Thanks for the info, I did not know that. I know it's been done, seen pics, but I never knew it was done much.
Closest I ever came was a 1980's log cabin that caught fire. Someone decided not to cut out enough logs for a fireplace.

 

[bholler]

Somewhat common practice in PA? Thanks for the info, I did not know that. I know it's been done, seen pics, but I never knew it was done much.
Closest I ever came was a 1980's log cabin that caught fire. Someone decided not to cut out enough logs for a fireplace.

We see it in almost all old walk in fireplaces. We heat shield them and use a section of class a as a sleeve for the liner to get it past the lintel. It is still a little to close even shielded but we have not had any issues

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

Spoke with the township code enforcement officer yesterday about our situation and he seemed pretty positive. He wanted to see 34" above the stove top to the nearest combustible without shielding, but once I showed the NFPA 211 clearances with shielding, he gave us the green light to proceed! Now to just get the re-pointing finished... dirty, but fun!

Thanks all for the input. I'll try and get some pictures up after the repointing is complete and some once we get a stove installed.

 

[begreen]

Good news. The heat shield should extend an inch past the front of the lintel. I would turn up that edge with a 45-90 degree bend. The shield could be made of copper for a more period look and nicer patina as it aged.

 

[jharkin]

I dont have much more advice about the install, but you might wnat to talk to member @Ashful he has stoves mounted into similarly large fireplaces in another PA farmhouse.

Speaking of which Id love to see more of the house. Are you sure its not a lot older than 1870? That's an awfully large fireplace for the late 1800s , cast iron stoves where very common by that time and coal as a heating fuel was starting to predominate over wood in the last couple decades of the 19th century (I would think especially so in PA.) Even early central heat systems (crude steam and gravity HW) where available - if not common- in 1870.

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

Here is what the fireplace looked like mid-demo stage. My fiance's grandfather closed in the main opening with stone and brick to put that stove/insert in there, but we wanted to open it back up to it's "walk-in" size.

We really don't know when the house was built. The deed/title search says 1870, but I found a map of our township (Colebrookdale in Berks County) from 1862 that shows the house, as well as a mill that used to be across the street. It was sitting on 25 acres, about 14 acres is clear while the remaining 11 acres is all woods. We did a subdivision to divide off the field section, leaving us with 13 acres total, and what seems like enough trees/wood supply for many years to come.

Here are a few other random shots, from various stages of the renovation. We have been working on the house for about 1.5 years now, and should hopefully be moving in by the end of November. Most people think we are crazy for taking on a project like this at our ages (I'm 25 and fiance is 21), but we feel if we can make it through this, we'll make it through anything!

They just don't make them like this anymore! Each joist is locked into the main beams with pegs, all cut to match (hence the roman numerals!)

This is the bedroom directly above the living room fireplace. There was another fireplace at the opposite end of the house on the second floor, but we removed it for more space in the bathroom.

Exterior during roof replacement (had a metal roof over original cedar shake roof). We had a hefty bat problem as well, more than 1,000 of the little guys in there.

Some somewhat recent exterior shots.


I will try to post updates as we make more progress. Insulation and drywall should be completed in the next week or two!

 

[begreen]

Sure looks older than 1870 with that construction.

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

I happened to find an 1857 Flying Eagle Cent in one of the walls when we were doing demo, excellent condition, but wasn't sure how long it had been in there, or if was dropped in there later possibly during work/repairs.

 

[begreen]

It looks like it has been added onto maybe a couple times. That side porch may be a nice feature but it is totally out of character with the beauty of this house.

 

[iamlucky13]

Really cool house. The mortise, tenon, and peg construction is great to see.

I don't think your age is crazy if you can find the time to do the work. You'll be left with many years to enjoy the house when it's done.

 

[jharkin]

So it is post and beam construction... (or at least the floors are framed that way - I cant tell from the stucco if the walls are wood framed or masonry?) I expected that and its another sign that its older than you think.

Baloon framing was invented and first done in Chicago in the 1830s, really took off in the west post Civil war and then slowly migrated east. The last holdouts where stubborn new Englander's who built hybrid frames with baloon studded walls but retaining the heavy coner posts to the late 1800s. Your floor with that big summer beam looks like traditional timber framing and I would place it pre-civil war if it was a New England house. I dont know PA as well.

Town records are sometimes wildly off with homes built before 1900. In some places they just use a cutoff date and any house older than that gets the same "effective age" in the tax rolls . If you are interested in more shoot me a PM I can point you to books and other resources that might help date it more accurately, we spent a lot of time researching our place extensively via the deeds, maps, geneology records and dating construction details against a lot of reference books.

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

So it is post and beam construction... (or at least the floors are framed that way - I cant tell from the stucco if the walls are wood framed or masonry?) I expected that and its another sign that its older than you think.

Baloon framing was invented and first done in Chicago in the 1830s, really took off in the west post Civil war and then slowly migrated east. The last holdouts where stubborn new Englander's who built hybrid frames with baloon studded walls but retaining the heavy coner posts to the late 1800s. Your floor with that big summer beam looks like traditional timber framing and I would place it pre-civil war if it was a New England house. I dont know PA as well.

Town records are sometimes wildly off with homes built before 1900. In some places they just use a cutoff date and any house older than that gets the same "effective age" in the tax rolls . If you are interested in more shoot me a PM I can point you to books and other resources that might help date it more accurately, we spent a lot of time researching our place extensively via the deeds, maps, geneology records and dating construction details against a lot of reference books.

jharkin, I will definitely be getting back to you about researching more. The exterior walls of the house are solid brick. The front and back walls are about 12" thick, as they are taking the load of the floor joists, while the side walls are about 9" thick. I'm assuming the sides are 2 wythes while the front and back may be 3 or 4, with some air gaps in between. The stucco was added in the 60's I think.

We have an old photo somewhere from about the 1920's with one of my fiance's family members out front. I'll have to dig that up.

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

Just dropping by to give an update on the 'new-stove-in-an-old-house' story.

The inside of the house is looking closer to completion as all of the framing, insulation, and drywall is now complete. This week the trim is going in, paint is starting, and windows are being sealed up. The refinishing of the floors should start next week.

This morning we placed an order for an Englander NC30. It's not our dream stove, but think this will work for the first few years as we learn all the ins-and-outs of wood burning. We are hoping to upgrade to a Jotul or other similar cast stove in the future, as it would give a little more "charm" to the house. I'm thinking the NC30 will pay for itself pretty quickly however, with the additional 6" of insulation in all the walls plus the new windows.

The chimney/fireplace installer is scheduled to do our installation on the 24th. When looking at our fireplace originally he suggested we have it repointed, since there were several spots of mortar that had fallen out. The holes had to be sealed in case there were ever to be a fire in the space between the new liner and the old chimney. After looking at the cost for brick repointing, I decided to tackle the job myself. In the images below it is about half-way done after about 3 weeks of working about an hour a day after work.

Living room after drywall:



Attic was previously unfinished, open to the original cedar roof. After chasing out a few thousand bats and a new roof, we though the attic would make a great man-cave.


Brick "Before" picture:


Brick "After" picture:


Deep window sills that our cat will love:


I'll post some more updated pictures as things progress. We are hoping to move in by the end of the month so things should be coming together quickly! (After working on this place for 1.5 years, it's about time!)

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Jags]

VERY nicely done, sir. And I don't think you are crazy at all to take on this project at your age. Now is the time to do it so that you have many years ahead of you to enjoy it. That looks like a pretty neat home.

 

[mellow]

Very cool, that is for sure a house you can "grow" into. Just curious, what is your primary heat source?

 

[Mudsurfer1234]

Very cool, that is for sure a house you can "grow" into. Just curious, what is your primary heat source?

The house originally had an oil furnace with hot water baseboards. We had to take out all of the baseboards to put up the new 2x6 walls so we decided to go ahead and update to a more efficient system, and get central AC to boot, so we installed a high efficiency propane system since natural gas isn't available on our street.

I'm hoping to use the blower in the winter to help circulate the hot air from the stove. The return duct is located directly at the top of the stairs where most of the heat tends to go (we found this out using a kerosene heater on a cold day). Our hope is that the hot hair is drawn into the return and then circulated to all of the other rooms.

I like pictures in threads so here's another, haha.