WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
They run fine on 70:1. That's your insurance! If you want more insurance, just run the Stihl synthetic oil. Better heat resistance and better lubrication.
New to Me MS 261 - what to look out for?
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They run fine on 70:1. That's your insurance! If you want more insurance, just run the Stihl synthetic oil. Better heat resistance and better lubrication.
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
Yes, you can mix/match, just make sure the bar and chain has matching gauges and the chain matches the pitch of the sprockets.
Thanks for the disassembly photos! Very nice. Although I think the camera is not focused on the cylinder wall so scoring, if it were present, might not be visible. But I assume you checked it visually as well as by photograph. My close vision doesn't have the acuity it did previously so I can often see things in a well focused close-up that I can't see with my naked eye.
Question: Do those two muffler clips need to be tweaked before reinstallation or do they snap right back into place tightly?
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They just snapped right back into place. I'm not even sure why they're there except maybe to keep wood chips from going down the screw hole and smoking.
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
Thanks, that makes sense. I thought they held the muffler together but they just keep debris out.
salecker
Minister of Fire
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
So Amsoil is good for 100 to 1 they say...
So save even more money and use that...
Cheapskates
I've never heard Amsoil is good for 100:1? In a Stihl saw? I'm quite certain Stihl doesn't condone that.
But I think I'm missing your point. Are you saying running the manufacturer's recommendation of 50:1 is being a "cheapskate"?
salecker
Minister of Fire
Yes i am
Oil is cheap,parts aren't.Labor is even more expensive.The only Stihl dealer in the Yukon charges $120 an hour,and i am sure there are similar stories of high labor costs at US dealers.
The only reason manufactures state 50:1 is to pass EPA regs.Same as the jets on new carbs that have limiters or special heads that you aren't supposed to get tools for. EPA regulations forbid dealers from selling tools to tune your saw???Look at the big box store saws for sale,they have a life expectancy stated right on the saw.Why??? because if you use the saw as it is set up,regulated by the EPA.The saw will only last for a fixed time at 50:1 tuned lean.Then toss it.
But if you remove the limiters and actually put some oil in the gas the saw will run for years with proper maintenance.
I have a pile of Homeowner scored saws,plastic is still shiny on most of them.
Up in the north most people are very forgetful,We have a warning system up here,when the leaves turn colors and fall off that means water is going to get hard and we have at least 5 months of freezing temps ahead.Happens every year but 80% of the people that need wood wait till the cold shows up to deal with the wood situation.
When it gets cold,"our cold" not southern cold. The air gets thinner. effectively leaning out the fuel air mixture.
Guess what happens next to the 50:1 EPA adjusted saw?So with a few more pennies of oil in the mix at least the saw has a chance to do what it's supposed to do.Cut some wood to keep your ass warm.
Yes Amsoil has 2 cycle mix that has 100:1 mixing recommendations,and there are others that claim even less in their ratios.I am sure you have heard the term" there's a sucker born every minute."
I don't think I ever mentioned money as a factor when it comes to your ratio. I mean I run 91 in all my small equipment even if 87 is all that's recommended, and I'm pretty sure the price difference in 87 vs 91 is way more than the extra oil used.
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WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
You're wrong about that. While the EPA did drive the move to lower emissions, cleaner burning and more fuel efficient saws, the 50:1 ratio is the optimum ratio for a well engineered saw designed to run on 50:1. More oil means less HP and more carbon buildup. Excessive carbon buildup on the piston crown and cylinder head leads to higher compression ratios, detonation and, eventually failure. Excessive carbon buildup on the top surface of piston rings can cause cylinder scoring. However, most scoring is caused by over-heating from a lean running condition. And when you add excessive oil to your gas it makes the mixture leaner. A saw running a gas/oil mix of 25:1 is not immune to overheating, running lean or the resulting scoring that happens. Saw engines have been scoring long before the EPA even existed! The bottom line is scoring is prevented by proper tuning and maintenance, not by adding extra oil as "insurance". I've run the piss out of my little Stihl 026, including continuous full power cuts in big wood, for 20 years never adding a drop more oil than the factory recommended 50:1 and it runs stronger now than when it was freshly broken in. I don't run 50:1 because I'm afraid to spend more money, I run 50:1 because every Stihl dealer I've ever met has cautioned against running a mix with more oil. I live in PNW logging country and these are the dealers that sold the local loggers who cut our majestic towering old growth forests their saws and supplies. I think they know a thing or two about how to treat a saw.
There have been cheap saws long before big box stores existed. Back then saw emissions were not regulated by the EPA. Guess what, cheap saws were always disposable and burned up with greater regularity than they do now, even with the higher oil/fuel ratio that was common in the day. So, if extra oil didn't prevent cheap saws from scoring and self-destructing back then, why do you think it would now? But this thread is not about cheap big box store saws, it's about a Stihl pro class saw. So I'm not sure why you tried to bring that in.
Nope. Cold air is more dense than warm air. That makes it thicker, not thinner. And that is precisely why all Stihl pro saws have a summer winter setting. Stihl instructs that in temps below 10 degrees C the saw should run pre-heated air by opening the winter pre-heat shutter. And in temps below -10 C that the optional intake air pre-heating kit is used. This insures that only pre-heated air from around the cylinder head is supplied to the carb. If you forget to run in winter mode you're just stupid. And if your saw is really running that lean, more oil isn't likely to save it. As I've already pointed out, chainsaws burned up from lean conditions ALL THE TIME before the EPA even existed! One of the more common causes was letting the fuel go stale, hardening into "varnish" inside the carb and restricting fuel flow.
More oil is not the solution.
salecker
Minister of Fire
What ever helps you sleep at night...
Yes i mad a mistake in what i wrote about the cold air,it should have been dense air is thicker getting more air into the saw when it's cold,effectively leaning out the saw.Most cheap saws don't have any winter settings.And most homeowners wouldn't know about any winter settings on saws.
I have been running saws since i was in my teens here.I have never had a saw burn down on me,100's of different saws and 100's of cords cut.
Just pulled apart a clean 445 that i got from a dealers scrap pile,tag on saw...sharpen saw,The shop techs tag...burnt piston.
No vac or pressure leaks,saw covered by fine sawdust.Piston looks brand new except for the scoring on the exhaust.Mix looks clear no color to speak of,3/4 tank that went into my spliter.
My diagnosis...
Dull chain,saw was overheated trying to get forced through the wood,Carb limiters on the card adjusters,but they were probably never touched.Came with a new looking bar,but no chain.Air cleaner plugged .
I am glad that the owner followed the 50:1 thought,there wasn't any extra oil for insurance saw got hot and lean and now i have a very new looking Husky 455 that i will sell for top dollar after it gets a new piston and new chain.
I have about $20.00 into it,new piston will be about $50.00 so i should make good money on that saw.
So since i can't convince you that more oil is better,i will thank you and others for continuing at 50:1.This will keep people like myself in project saws for years to come.In my case the extra money i make i spend on collector saws for my retirement.
A properly tuned saw with 32:1 will not carbon up.A saw that is running rich and not tuned will carbon up.
Yes i mad a mistake in what i wrote about the cold air,it should have been dense air is thicker getting more air into the saw when it's cold,effectively leaning out the saw.Most cheap saws don't have any winter settings.And most homeowners wouldn't know about any winter settings on saws.
I have been running saws since i was in my teens here.I have never had a saw burn down on me,100's of different saws and 100's of cords cut.
Just pulled apart a clean 445 that i got from a dealers scrap pile,tag on saw...sharpen saw,The shop techs tag...burnt piston.
No vac or pressure leaks,saw covered by fine sawdust.Piston looks brand new except for the scoring on the exhaust.Mix looks clear no color to speak of,3/4 tank that went into my spliter.
My diagnosis...
Dull chain,saw was overheated trying to get forced through the wood,Carb limiters on the card adjusters,but they were probably never touched.Came with a new looking bar,but no chain.Air cleaner plugged .
I am glad that the owner followed the 50:1 thought,there wasn't any extra oil for insurance saw got hot and lean and now i have a very new looking Husky 455 that i will sell for top dollar after it gets a new piston and new chain.
I have about $20.00 into it,new piston will be about $50.00 so i should make good money on that saw.
So since i can't convince you that more oil is better,i will thank you and others for continuing at 50:1.This will keep people like myself in project saws for years to come.In my case the extra money i make i spend on collector saws for my retirement.
A properly tuned saw with 32:1 will not carbon up.A saw that is running rich and not tuned will carbon up.
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
I've been running saws since I was a pre-teen and my dad bought a cheap Poulan saw. Instructions said to mix a pint of oil per gallon of fuel. That's 16:1 if you can do the math! That's what we ran, it smoked like crazy! Guess what, that saw died after three years in the middle of limbing up a big ol' Maple. Since then I've only had 1 Homelite (actually not mine but I used it for two years to clear my bosses building site and buck up his firewood) and 2 Stihls running 50:1 and have never burned up another saw!
I've said it before but it bears repeating, scoring is the result of too much heat and more oil is not gonna fix that. I was running alcohol free gas with 16:1 fuel/oil mix when that Poulan's cylinder scored fatally! If 16:1 didn't save it, why do you think 30:1 or 40:1 would?
See the mistake you made here?
You just assume the saw would have been fine with more oil. Any saw can burn up when run too lean, too hot, even with double the oil! The problem is excessive heat, not a lack of lubrication. You see, as metal heats up, it changes shape as it expands. Pretty soon the piston doesn't fit the bore. If you think more oil gonna fix that, I've got a bridge to sell you!
All saws collect carbon over their life. Carbon is a combustion by-product even in a properly running saw. The pertinent point is, how fast that carbon collects. In a properly running saw it will be minimal. But nearly doubling the recommended amount of oil will increase carbon build-up. Spark arrestor screens are known points of carbon build-up. And carbon build-up is bad, it doesn't matter if it's from a slightly rich running condition or excessive oil.
But I can see I will never convince you that you are not smarter than all the Stihl engineers who design and test the most durable saws in the world. Or the saw shop employees who service the loggers who clear the gentle giants in the PNW forests.
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WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
Do you ever wish you had a really good saw shop at your disposal? One that had over 70 years of experience with professional loggers working their saws hard and that was still run by descendants of the original founders? A shop who had a long history of keeping saws running 10's of thousands of hours at full throttle, buried deep in living trees? Saws that can't fail at the critical moment felling a giant tree. A shop with knowledge deep and wide that keeps these loggers and their saws happy, winter, summer, spring and fall? A shop known to hire busted up loggers with decades of real world experience of what works and what doesn't? A shop that would go out of business if it gave bad advice simply to placate the EPA?
If you are tired of taking your saw advice from "seat of the pants Larry", "Joe know it all" or Internet forums where advice ranges from spot on to "you've got to be kidding me", may I introduce you to Madsen's Saw Shop? This is the cover of their 2006 catalog celebrating their 50th anniversary of serving professional loggers:
The guy in the photo is one of their long-time loyal customers.
Even if you live 1000 miles or more removed from the heart of the Pacific Northwest logging industry, you can take advantage of their vast real world experience tearing down 1000's of hard-working saws and hearing from their owners. Because they share their no-BS information and knowledge and always have. What do the experts at Madsen's Saw Shop have to say about fuel oil ratios in modern pro-class chainsaws?
"Another octane related item involves mix oil. When oil is mixed with gasoline, the end result is a mixture with lower octane than the gasoline alone. This is one reason it is important to mix according to the manufacturer's specifications. Some people add extra oil figuring they are doing their saw a favor. They are not. This can lower the octane of the mix, plus cause carbon to build up in the combustion chamber and exhaust system. Our advice is to mix according to the specs -- and do it accurately."
So, who are you going to trust? The people who make the saws or the people who service the saws or "Joe know it all"? Fortunately, two out of three of these sources are giving you the same advice: you are harming your saw by adding extra oil. Measure carefully and mix it to spec. Not a drop more (because it is of no benefit). These guys have no reason to lie. In fact, it would be fatal to their thriving business if their advice didn't work in the real world. You can learn a lot more right here:
http://www.madsens1.com/saw_fuelmix.htm
They also have a wealth of no BS info on everything from Race Saw Preparation, Piston Failure Analysis down to sharpening various kinds of saw chains here:
http://www.madsens1.com/mnu_sawmaint.htm
Read and learn. I would hope this kind of info from an unimpeachable source would end, once and for all, the myth that it's a good idea to add extra oil to your gas but I'm old and wise enough to know there will always be people who think they are smarter than the industry experts. If a little is good, more is better, right?
If you are tired of taking your saw advice from "seat of the pants Larry", "Joe know it all" or Internet forums where advice ranges from spot on to "you've got to be kidding me", may I introduce you to Madsen's Saw Shop? This is the cover of their 2006 catalog celebrating their 50th anniversary of serving professional loggers:
The guy in the photo is one of their long-time loyal customers.
Even if you live 1000 miles or more removed from the heart of the Pacific Northwest logging industry, you can take advantage of their vast real world experience tearing down 1000's of hard-working saws and hearing from their owners. Because they share their no-BS information and knowledge and always have. What do the experts at Madsen's Saw Shop have to say about fuel oil ratios in modern pro-class chainsaws?
"Another octane related item involves mix oil. When oil is mixed with gasoline, the end result is a mixture with lower octane than the gasoline alone. This is one reason it is important to mix according to the manufacturer's specifications. Some people add extra oil figuring they are doing their saw a favor. They are not. This can lower the octane of the mix, plus cause carbon to build up in the combustion chamber and exhaust system. Our advice is to mix according to the specs -- and do it accurately."
So, who are you going to trust? The people who make the saws or the people who service the saws or "Joe know it all"? Fortunately, two out of three of these sources are giving you the same advice: you are harming your saw by adding extra oil. Measure carefully and mix it to spec. Not a drop more (because it is of no benefit). These guys have no reason to lie. In fact, it would be fatal to their thriving business if their advice didn't work in the real world. You can learn a lot more right here:
http://www.madsens1.com/saw_fuelmix.htm
They also have a wealth of no BS info on everything from Race Saw Preparation, Piston Failure Analysis down to sharpening various kinds of saw chains here:
http://www.madsens1.com/mnu_sawmaint.htm
Read and learn. I would hope this kind of info from an unimpeachable source would end, once and for all, the myth that it's a good idea to add extra oil to your gas but I'm old and wise enough to know there will always be people who think they are smarter than the industry experts. If a little is good, more is better, right?
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salecker
Minister of Fire
[
Read and learn. I would hope this kind of info from an unimpeachable source would end, once and for all, the myth that it's a good idea to add extra oil to your gas but I'm old and wise enough to know there will always be people who think they are smarter than the industry experts. If a little is good, more is better, right?[/QUOTE]
Please take your own advice and read to learn.
Read and learn. I would hope this kind of info from an unimpeachable source would end, once and for all, the myth that it's a good idea to add extra oil to your gas but I'm old and wise enough to know there will always be people who think they are smarter than the industry experts. If a little is good, more is better, right?[/QUOTE]
Please take your own advice and read to learn.
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
WoodyIsGoody
Minister of Fire
Ethanol free will make more power and stabilize better (stay fresh a bit longer). Definitely superior. With good fuel management E10 works just fine but I've started running a combination of ethanol free pump gas and canned Moto-mix for extra insurance (and because I don't drain the fuel).
My 026 ran great for 20 years on nothing but E10 and 50:1 Stihl Ultra but I did need to replace the fuel pick-up in year 15 or 16. It had a crack that was probably the long term effects of E10 sitting in the tank. But I've also heard of that happening to people who have never run E10 so it's hard to say. The most important thing is that the fuel is fresh and properly mixed with a high quality oil.
But don't take my word for it, read the link about fuel I provided above to Madsen's Saw Shop. They have seen it all and a sample size of thousands and thousands is better than any one of us can provide.
