New to wood stoves/recommendations

[jongalong]

Hi all, we recently moved into a 1500sqft 2 story house in central VT and are looking to have a chimney and wood stove installed. We have a quote for $5600 to have a 16' class A chimney installed - from the living room and through a crawl space above. Assuming that price is reasonable, we are now looking for a stove to connect. After reading through numerous threads here I'm now farther way from knowing what to get than when I started. The chimney installer sells Regency stoves so that would be the easiest to source but we could always get the stove from elsewhere and have them install it. Here are our top priorities for a stove:
1) Low emissions/efficiency/environmentally friendly
2) Ambiance - we love the look of a cast iron stove like the BK Ashford or a VC Dauntless (but staying away from VC due to bad reviews)
3) Price - need to have it qualify for the 30% tax rebate
4) Heating ability
5) Ease of use

We currently heat with oil furnace and hot water baseboards but the furnace is 30 years old and are probably getting a heat pump to replace it within the next couple years and will use the stove to supplement. We have some trees to cut but would have to buy additional wood if we wanted to use the stove as primary heat and until our wood is seasoned.

Anyone have recommendations?

 

[KDubU]

Ashford is a really nice stove and a good performer from what I have read so I would see if you can source one in New England. As you are in VT, Woodstock is not far away in NH so is another option (they sell direct to consumer).

 

[Garbanzo62]

Reach out to Bholler. He is a Regency Dealer and may have some insights

 

[njk4o5]

you got it right, BK Ashford is the way to go

 

[EbS-P]

If I didn’t care about price the Ashford is a great stove on would be at the top of my list.

Price matters so I ended up with a Drolet. Here is the list of qualified tax credit stoves. (broken link removed to https://www.drolet.ca/file/Drolet_Tax_Certificate.pdf)

Osborn is their next step up.

remember if you will be getting a heat pump it will do great during should season so you the low output of a blaze king might not be that important.

 

[Ashful]

Since you already named the Ashford 30, and I happen to own two of them, I'll say you can't go wrong there. But I'd not take just a single quote for the chimney OR the stove... especially the chimney.

1. For chimney, you can just plunk your info into angi.com, and you'll usually get calls from at least three contractors within a day or two. You'll learn something from each, if nothing else to check against each other, and make sure you're not only getting a good price, but a good workable solution.

2. For the stove, I got quotes from at least three BK dealers (might have been four?), and the difference in price was nearly $2k for a pair of Ashford 30's. That was way back in 2015, when these things weren't nearly as expensive as today.

 

[begreen]

The Ashford will work, so will the Lopi Rockford. A Woodstock Fireview or Palladian/Keystone would also be a good fit. Regency used to sell Hampton cast iron freestanding stoves but has not brought them back after 2020.

If you get a heat pump, then the low and slow capability of a cat stove is less of a benefit. The heat pump will handle shoulder season heating with ease and if you are buying wood, it may be less expensive.

Speaking of wood, modern stoves need fully seasoned dry wood. Some species, like oak and hickory, take 2 yrs to season - after it has been split and stacked. Most wood sellers that say the wood is seasoned, are not being totally honest. Wood that has not been split is not really drying out.

 

[joop]

my cousin has a regency zero clearance insert and it's a heater thats for sure

 

[Wildflush]

1,500 sq ft and two floors. I’d save some money and get a non cat Pacific energy Vista. We have 1,900 sq ft cape and this little stove drives us out. Great viewing with large glass, ease of use and gets hot fast. We paid $2,300 for the stove and have a class A about 23’ top of stove to chimney cap.

 

[Ashful]

I’d save some money and get a non cat Pacific energy Vista. We have 1,900 sq ft cape and this little stove drives us out.

That's exactly the reason most would consider a cat stove, their ability to turn down lower and avoid exactly this scenario, driving oneself out of the house with too much heat.

 

[Eman85]

Let's talk about wood. If you don't season it chances are you won't have seasoned wood, I don't care what the seller tells you. Unless you are buying true kiln dried firewood that's sold at a certain moisture content you will have to season it. Firewood sellers are not going to fill acres with stacked wood for years before they sell it. If it is split and piled for 6-12 mos that would be a long time.

 

[Wildflush]

That's exactly the reason most would consider a cat stove, their ability to turn down lower and avoid exactly this scenario, driving oneself out of the house with too much heat.

Actually I can control it with a smaller load. The simplicity of a non cat is paramount in my view. My point being is the small vista can heat a good size space. My house is now 72 on the main floor. That is with not a lot of fuel. When we got -12 temps and wind chill near -30 house was 75 on main floor when I loaded it up.

 

[Ashful]

Actually I can control it with a smaller load. The simplicity of a non cat is paramount in my view. My point being is the small vista can heat a good size space. My house is now 72 on the main floor. That is with not a lot of fuel. When we got -12 temps and wind chill near -30 house was 75 on main floor when I loaded it up.

That's fine, and I'm not knocking your stove. PE makes great product, and I'd be happy to own one. But since you put this out there, it is worth pointing out two things here:

1. You could keep your house at the same temperature under most conditions with even less wood, using a higher-efficiency cat stove. Not only that, but you could meter the heat out at a constant low rate, rather than pumping thru your short loads and gliding in-between. No need for your small loads, just stuff it full and set it to low and slow black-box mode for 30 hours of low, even heat. Or continue to short load and run it hot if you like, cat stoves can do either.

2. Claims of non-cats being simpler are rarely made by those who have actually owned a good modern cat stove (eg. Woodstock or BK). While I read every week of non-cat owners experiencing run-away, for waiting five minutes too long to turn down their stove, I can take my cat stoves from raging inferno to black box at any time and any temperature, at the simple turn of a knob. What's simpler than that?

It's fine, either can work. It's not even something I'd bring up if you hadn't put out this misleading information. But if you really want to dig into the "cat vs. non-cat" BS, you'll find that we have far more people on this forum report a switch from non-cat to cat, after a few years of burning and gaining experience, than the other way around. Why? Twenty years ago, most were converting the other way, after experience with bad early cat stoves designed in the 1980's and early 1990's. Woodburning tech is still changing and growing every year.

I will agree with you that the cost of good cat stoves is higher, if not the complexity. Again, you have to ask yourself how a higher-cost product exists in a mature market with lots of competition, if it really held no substantial advantages?

 

[Wildflush]

That's fine, and I'm not knocking your stove. PE makes great product, and I'd be happy to own one. But since you put this out there, it is worth pointing out two things here:

1. You could keep your house at the same temperature under most conditions with even less wood, using a higher-efficiency cat stove. Not only that, but you could meter the heat out at a constant low rate, rather than pumping thru your short loads and gliding in-between. No need for your small loads, just stuff it full and set it to low and slow black-box mode for 30 hours of low, even heat. Or continue to short load and run it hot if you like, cat stoves can do either.

2. Claims of non-cats being simpler are rarely made by those who have actually owned a good modern cat stove (eg. Woodstock or BK). While I read every week of non-cat owners experiencing run-away, for waiting five minutes too long to turn down their stove, I can take my cat stoves from raging inferno to black box at any time and any temperature, at the simple turn of a knob. What's simpler than that?

It's fine, either can work. It's not even something I'd bring up if you hadn't put out this misleading information. But if you really want to dig into the "cat vs. non-cat" BS, you'll find that we have far more people on this forum report a switch from non-cat to cat, after a few years of burning and gaining experience, than the other way around. Why? Twenty years ago, most were converting the other way, after experience with bad early cat stoves designed in the 1980's and early 1990's. Woodburning tech is still changing and growing every year.

I will agree with you that the cost of good cat stoves is higher, if not the complexity. Again, you have to ask yourself how a higher-cost product exists in a mature market with lots of competition, if it really held no substantial advantages?

I did not mean this to turn into a debate but I don’t think it’s misleading that a non cat stove is simpler to operate. That is a fact. Did a lot of research before I bought and spoke with my buddy with a cat stove. My stove place also recommended the PE based on OUR needs. My wife and kids operate our stove and it would be more of a challenge to make sure it is running right so not to cause clogs in the catalyst. Yes the cat stove is more efficient but my stove is still highly efficient. Also it depends on the home. I don’t need 30hr burn times since my home is super efficient.
Not to keep going down the rabbit hole but to address you mature market comment I could not help but think of the auto industry with lots of competition . Yes we have highend expensive German autos, people buy them, but don’t see substantial advantages to justify the price. I know I owned one.

 

[GrumpyDad]

VC Dauntless (but staying away from VC due to bad reviews)

I feel an overwhelming sense of pride.
This stove would likely be too small for you anyway.

Let's talk about wood. If you don't season it chances are you won't have seasoned wood, I don't care what the seller tells you. Unless you are buying true kiln dried firewood that's sold at a certain moisture content you will have to season it. Firewood sellers are not going to fill acres with stacked wood for years before they sell it. If it is split and piled for 6-12 mos that would be a long time.

Jongalong - to Eman's point, never trust a single firewood dealer Their idea of dry and what you need are two different things. For the first time ever, and Ive been getting wood for over 20 years, I received 2 cords of actually dried wood (less than 20% MC). I already had wood sitting for 3-4 years, but was happy to receive those 2 cords as well because I thought I might need it this year. Before I got my stove, I called around for kiln dried cordwood and it was ~$850. <--- That's alarming! You can rip through a cord SO fast.

 

[GrumpyDad]

I did not mean this to turn into a debate but I don’t think it’s misleading that a non cat stove is simpler to operate. That is a fact. Did a lot of research before I bought and spoke with my buddy with a cat stove. My stove place also recommended the PE based on OUR needs. My wife and kids operate our stove and it would be more of a challenge to make sure it is running right so not to cause clogs in the catalyst. Yes the cat stove is more efficient but my stove is still highly efficient. Also it depends on the home. I don’t need 30hr burn times since my home is super efficient.
Not to keep going down the rabbit hole but to address you mature market comment I could not help but think of the auto industry with lots of competition . Yes we have highend expensive German autos, people buy them, but don’t see substantial advantages to justify the price. I know I owned one.

I believe without a doubt that most people arent operating their cat stoves properly, and as such are actually having the opposite effect than the original intent, thus running dirtier than if they had a non cat stove.

 

[Ashful]

I did not mean this to turn into a debate but I don’t think it’s misleading that a non cat stove is simpler to operate. That is a fact. Did a lot of research before I bought and spoke with my buddy with a cat stove. My stove place also recommended the PE based on OUR needs. My wife and kids operate our stove and it would be more of a challenge to make sure it is running right so not to cause clogs in the catalyst. Yes the cat stove is more efficient but my stove is still highly efficient. Also it depends on the home. I don’t need 30hr burn times since my home is super efficient.
Not to keep going down the rabbit hole but to address you mature market comment I could not help but think of the auto industry with lots of competition . Yes we have highend expensive German autos, people buy them, but don’t see substantial advantages to justify the price. I know I owned one.

That's fine. I'm also through debating it. The point is that there are advantages in to both tech's, and that's the reason both exist. Cost advantage generally goes to the non-cats, performance advantage generally goes to the cats, but there are exceptions on both sides of that generality.

 

[Wildflush]

That's fine. I'm also through debating it. The point is that there are advantages in to both tech's, and that's the reason both exist. Cost advantage generally goes to the non-cats, performance advantage generally goes to the cats, but there are exceptions on both sides of that generality.

100% agree with you

 

[Ashful]

I believe without a doubt that most people arent operating their cat stoves properly, and as such are actually having the opposite effect than the original intent, thus running dirtier than if they had a non cat stove.

My son has been closing the bypass and adjusting the thermostat on my two stoves, since well before he was strong enough to even lift a split of wood to load it. Most Saturdays, I load one of them and head outside, leaving him with a timer set to 5 minutes and instructions to close the bypass when it goes off. About twenty minutes later, he turns the knob down to the mark on I left on the thermostat. Done.

... and what if he forgets to turn it down? No biggie, these stoves can run wide-open throttle all day, with no damage. This is a "thermostat vs. non-thermostat" thing, not really "cat vs. non-cat", and not all cat stoves have thermostats. But is there a "simple" non-cat on the market today, that won't self-destruct if you forget to turn it down for a full load?

 

[GrumpyDad]

That's fine. I'm also through debating it. The point is that there are advantages in to both tech's, and that's the reason both exist. Cost advantage generally goes to the non-cats, performance advantage generally goes to the cats, but there are exceptions on both sides of that generality.

In your opinion, are the Ashford 30's worth the money over other brands?

 

[GrumpyDad]

My son has been closing the bypass and adjusting the thermostat on my two stoves, since well before he was strong enough to even lift a split of wood to load it. Most Saturdays, I load one of them and head outside, leaving him with a timer set to 5 minutes and instructions to close the bypass when it goes off. About twenty minutes later, he turns the knob down to the mark on I left on the thermostat. Done.

... and what if he forgets to turn it down? No biggie, these stoves can run wide-open throttle all day, with no damage. This is a "thermostat vs. non-thermostat" thing, not really "cat vs. non-cat". But have you got one of these "simple" non-cats that won't self-destruct, if you forget to turn it down for a full load?

Unfortunately yes, and if I left my damper open for too long I would return to a pile of molten metal and a charred out building.
I keep hearing about the Ashford's being a simple to operate stove, as well as the non cat Jotul f45. I really need something my family can operate with ease. My kids are really smart as is my wife, but they just dont have the patience or memory to do the things necessary to operate our stove. Heck it's a chore to get them to add a split or two to the fireplace which we use to heat the other side of the cabin.

 

[Ashful]

I went from a pair of Jotul Firelight 600's, cat stoves designed in the early 1990's, to a pair of BK Ashford 30's designed ca.2013. The difference is night and day, to the point where I can easily understand some of the negative comments about cat stoves. Hell, those old Jotuls were probably the instigator of at least half of them, they had a lot of performance issues, but so did many other early cat stoves. Secondary burn was a concept just being adopted for the first time by most of the companies making them, and they had a lot to learn, as companies with historically near-zero R&D staff or budget.

Another factor in the historical zeitgeist that has lead to a lot of the current mantra of cat stoves being more difficult is that these were the first type of reburn stoves. Folks who'd been burning wet wood in old smoke dragons for a generation or more, were frustrated trying to put that same wood thru their then-new cat stoves, creating enormous frustration and a bad reputation for cat stoves. Those old stoves weren't great, but wet wood was more often the primary problem.

But Woodstock and Blaze King have continued developing and refining this tech for more than 30 years now, taking advantage of the pure and simple fact that reburn aided with a catalyst can be sustained at half the temperature of reburn without a catalyst, really opening up the bottom-end range of a stove. BK went a step further with the addition of a thermostat, which allows operation all day everyday at wide-open throttle, without damage. That thermostat also allows the super long burn times (~10 hours per cubic foot), as the operator can find the setting that will allow it to modulate as needed to keep the rig running just above cat stall.

Its fair to say that pushing a stove toward these super-long 30 hour burn times adds some complexity, and that is probably to what you are referring. Pushing the envelope on anything always creates complexity. But if you just want to stuff a box full of wood and run repeated 12-hour cycles, there's really nothing complicated at all about running a modern cat stove. In fact, if you account for someone remembering to close the bypass 5 minutes after reload (or ~15 minutes after cold start), you might argue it's simpler to operate, as they're not sensitive at all to timing specific turn-down rates.

That said, if I were buying a non-cat, I'd be with Wildflush. I really like the PE line-up, and everything I read about their performance from others here. Very few complaints, and the few I can remember seeing in 10 years were resolved satisfactorily. BK has also had their complaints, heck my ash trays came misconfigured on both of my stoves, but similarly always seems to take good care of the customer in resolving them. Woodstock has built their entire marketing on customer service, they also get top marks. VC (GrumpyDad) has had a much rougher recent history, but all reports are that things are looking optimistic under their new ownership.

 

[vbu]

@Ashful I've been reading here for a long time, and I have an idea of the place you're trying to heat. Out of pure curiosity, what made you decide to go with cat stoves? Is it the ease of operation that comes with the thermostat and the predictable burn times, once again adjusted with the thermostat? It seems like your heat load would be so large that you would not need the low turn down features a cat stove offers, is why I'm curious.

We are wanting to build a home in the next few years and I was always sold on a zero clearance stove, but after living with an insert and its tiny fans, the silence of a stove is starting to become very appealing.

How is the fire view on an average day for you? Me and the wife love seeing the flame show that the secondary burn produces with a tube design, and the thought of a black box does not appeal to us. I know BK's can run with and without visible flames, and was curious to your personal experience running a set of them.

Thanks!

 

[begreen]

That's exactly the reason most would consider a cat stove, their ability to turn down lower and avoid exactly this scenario, driving oneself out of the house with too much heat.

Except the poster stated this as a virtue. Obviously, they have a very well-insulated house. Our stove is twice the size of his Vista and necessary for heating a house in a mild climate with only 100 more sq ft.

The point being, the advantage of a cat stove in a house with a modern heat pump is much lower.

 

[Ashful]

@Ashful I've been reading here for a long time, and I have an idea of the place you're trying to heat. Out of pure curiosity, what made you decide to go with cat stoves? Is it the ease of operation that comes with the thermostat and the predictable burn times, once again adjusted with the thermostat? It seems like your heat load would be so large that you would not need the low turn down features a cat stove offers, is why I'm curious.

We are heating two general spaces with wood stoves, and chose these stoves for a few reasons:

1. I needed stoves that radiated as little energy off sides, back, and top as possible, as they're stuck back inside a fireplace that soaks up nearly all the heat radiated off these surfaces, and sinks it to either the earth or outside. This limited us to a small selection of stoves including BK Ashford, PE T5, Jotul F45.

2. One of these fireplaces is my office, the 1770's kitchen addition, a small 191 sq.ft. room with several computers always running. Although it's surrounded by a larger (4 floors x 1000 sq.ft./ea) and old stone house, I was concerned about having too much uncontrolled firepower in such a small room, so I wanted a stove with maximum turn-down capability here. I also knew that the best way to maximize temperature in distant rooms while minimizing temperature in this small room containing the stove, would be to deliver the heat from the stove at a low steady rate, rather than cycling.

3. The other fireplace was in the old summer kitchen, which has since been incorporated into a large "great room" with a lot of glass (solar gain), good insulation, and less space (1800 sq.ft. with some vaulted ceilings). My need for heat is low enough that I though a large cat stove could keep it heated on just one load per day, versus two or more smaller loads in a smaller non-cat. It is also a trip of more than 100 feet thru the house from where I keep my wood on a covered porch, thru basement, office, living room, kitchen, dining room, and then great room. So, a stove that could run all winter on one load per day was of high importance, for this location.

How is the fire view on an average day for you?

I'm running out now, but will try to find another recent thread where I showed pictures of the fire view. When you set these stoves to a 4-6 hour burn, the fire view is absolutely raging. Like white-hot, mouth of hell stuff. When set for an 8 hour burn, it looks like a healthy but tame fire. When set for a 12 hour burn, it's a few lazy flames on a glowing coal bed (which is where the office stove pretty much always runs). When setting for 24 - 30 hour burns, it's either faintly glowing coals or total black box.