New Vermont Castings Defiant leaking smoke into house

[jaysonoma]

Hi everyone. We bought a brand new VC non-cat Defiant about six weeks ago. We did the break-in burns as required.
Now, once we get a fire going, we get lots of smoke in the house. The fire is burning well, so I do not suspect lack of draw. The airwash feature is NOT keeping the glass clean. It is practically blackened after just one fire, before which I cleaned it thoroughly with soapy water. I haven't been able to figure out how the smoke is getting in. The stove is completely unusable before the house smells so bad for several days after attempting to use the stove. Also if you stand in front of the stove and look down on it to where the oval-to-round adaptor is attached to the stove collar: there is enough of a gap between the adator and the stove collar itself to see the fire burning inside the stove. It's hard for me to believe this is normal.

The dealer first suggested I let the stove burn an extra 15-20 minutes before starting to close the air supply -- I guess to ensure the fire was hot enough for the flue. That didn't help at all. He also suggested the chimney cap may be clogged. But I had the chimney swept just prior to installing the new stove.

We previously had a Defiant Encore (installed 1987). It had lots of rust from previous owners, and had really declined in its ability to put out heat. But it never caused any smoke in the house.

Now the dealer isn't even taking my calls, so I am desparate for some help!! Thanks, Jason

 

[webbie]

OK, a couple things....

Describe your chimney setup..... height, type (masonry or metal), ID and number of bends

Also, are you certain it is WOOD smoke? A new stove with painted surfaces will smoke badly a number of times as the paint cures. Also, certain areas have machine oils on them, like the griddle.

Do you have a magnetic thermometer? If so, you should be getting the grill on top to at least 600+ to cure the paint and oils. This can go on for a number of burns, unless you burn really hot - in which case it should only take 2 or 3 burns.

We can tell you more after we hear answers to the above...BUT

There should be furnace cement in the seam where the pipe meets the stove and between the other pipe sections and where it enters the chimney.

 

[jaysonoma]

Thanks for helping out!

Describe your chimney setup..... height, type (masonry or metal), ID and number of bends
>Metal chimney goes up from stove about 4.5 feet into top of alcove, then an additional approx 23 feet to the cap. It's enclosed in wood-sided bump-out on exterior of house from first floor, past tall second floor, and extends 5-6 feet out of the enclosure to where it ends. There are no bends, it is one long straight shot. I'm guessing the interior diameter is 6", since the outside measurement is approx 8.5 inches just above the stove.

Also, are you certain it is WOOD smoke? A new stove with painted surfaces will smoke badly a number of times as the paint cures. Also, certain areas have machine oils on them, like the griddle.
>Well that's a good question. It smells like wood smoke to me. But I note it doesn't smell until after the fire really gets going, then I can't stop it. I can see what "looks" like wood smoke flowing under spotlights in the house.

Do you have a magnetic thermometer? If so, you should be getting the grill on top to at least 600+ to cure the paint and oils. This can go on for a number of burns, unless you burn really hot - in which case it should only take 2 or 3 burns.
>Yes, we have a thermometer on the griddle. When we did the first few break-in burns, we didn't get the fire really hot because the manual says not too. It's only on the hotter fires (600+) that we've noticed the problem. I didn't think the new-stove burning would be this noticeable.

There should be furnace cement in the seam where the pipe meets the stove and between the other pipe sections and where it enters the chimney.
>Interesting. The dealer told me the space/gap is normal, and that smoke wouldn't come through there when the path of least resistance is up the chimney.

All advice most welcome, thanks. Jason

 

[Todd]

Like Craig says definately put some furnace cement in that gap. My guess is that;s where the smoke is coming from. Also, what kind of wood are you burning and is it fully seasoned or dry. Black glass could be from wet wood or bad glass gasket.

 

[jaysonoma]

Thanks! We are burning dry wood from a tree we cut down that was dead for a year. I was suspicious of the wood too, so I bought a small box of seasoned wood at the market and burned that...same problem. I'll have to double-check the gasket around the glass tonight; I haven't inspected that. Jason

 

[webbie]

In general, any gaps that are in the piping should suck in. A little experiment might help you prove this....

Try this both when the stove is in updraft and when it is in downdraft position...

hold a butane lighter near the crack - see if the flame gets sucked in - it should.

Your chimney should be more than strong enough - I still suspect "seasoning" oils. These look like smoke (they are!).....

This is an entirely different subject, but that particular stove has a number of operating nuances and you might want to do a forum search on "everburn" without the quotes to get some of the hints and tips. Trader Gordo, a long time member, has carefully documented his experiences in both writing and in a video.

Again....so you don't bark up the wrong tree - gasket and small holes should always suck IN, and therefore these are probably not the cause of your problem.

 

[jaysonoma]

Thanks, guys, for all your advice. I will try what you have suggested and keep you posted. Maybe because of the good karma, but the service guy at the dealer finally took my call today. He will send someone out on Friday to look at the stove. Take care, Jason

 

[TMonter]

Jason,

Can you take several pictures of the install and get them posted? A picture is worth 1000 words and having a few to reference will help people here figure out what your problem is.

 

[jaysonoma]

Great idea! I will do that and post them. You guys are the best. Thanks, Jason

 

[propguy]

What are the outside temps? I lose draft as it warms up outside 50 deg and up I will start to get some puffing in the house. I would also let that stove get up to 600 -650 before shutting the flue, and keeping the air OPEN. My DEFIANT took me at least a good month or so to get the hang of and then I had semi seasoned wood which added to the aggravation. Gary

 

[jtp10181]

Thanks! We are burning dry wood from a tree we cut down that was dead for a year. I was suspicious of the wood too, so I bought a small box of seasoned wood at the market and burned that...same problem. I'll have to double-check the gasket around the glass tonight; I haven't inspected that. Jason

Dead standing trees are not necessarily "seasoned". Wood should be cut split and stacked for at least a year. Also most people selling "seasoned" wood don't really know what seasoned means. Usually wet wood = black glass.

 

[downeast]

[quote author="jtp10181" date="1207624692"]Dead standing trees are not necessarily "seasoned".

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There's dead, meaning rotten and no good for anything except compost. Then there are dead standing solid wood trees such as Red Oaks that CAN be used as well-seasoned firewood from the stump. We've used those dead standing oaks for many many years with NO seasoning or problems.

"Wood should be cut split and stacked for at least a year."

NO, not always or even needed. If you've used wood as your primary heat you would know that most wood burners either:
1. Cut their wood in winter bucks or butts, then split and stack that spring or summer for burning the following winter. It is the done way for thousands of us who use wood stoves. Or,
2. Buy firewood CSD (cut/split/delivered) GREEN in late winter or spring for splitting and stacking for the following winter. If stacked with open air and sun, or in an open woodshed, it will season.

Most do not have the time to "season" for over a year. No need to if the wood is well split and stacked.

" Also most people selling "seasoned" wood don't really know what seasoned means. "

This Forest Gump, really takes the cake. And your experience with "most" firewood dealers is what ? Do you even use a wood stove as your primary heat or buy firewood ? From the near 25 years of buying and harvesting firewood for ourselves, and heating with any variety of wood stoves, near ALL firewood dealers are honest, knowledgable, and work hard for low margins.
Silly, uninformed statement. And that's generous. :lol:

"Usually wet wood = black glass."

Often it is low airflow supply. High air (such as a cracked open door or ash pan door) with any kind of wood will not produce creosote.

We need some informed, experienced, real time users here. Get out and try.

The flames may begin.............. :bug:

 

[jaysonoma]

Hi everyone. I figured i should return to the Forum to close the loop on this problem. The dealer sent a repair guy out last week. He carefully inspected everything for proper functioning, leaking doors/windows, clean flue, etc. No problems...EXCEPT the gap between the stove collar and the oval/round adaptor. The repair guy said it's quite normal to have a gap there, but that the gap we had was "beyond normal." He described it on his work report at 7/16" of a gap, but the adaptor was bulging in at the back more than the front. For the front, he installed 3/16" gasket (similar to other gaskets on the stove); in the back, he installed 3/8". After doing that, he started a test fire (even brought his own wood). We let it burn nice and hot, added more wood, closed/opened the flue, raised/lowered the air supply and NO SMOKE. Only new-stove smell that you guys had mentioned at the outset. of course it was the warmest day of the spring so far; hated to waste such a nice fire. We've fired up the stove one other time since then, and no smoke -- just that new-stove smell that I'll be eager to lose.

Meanwhile, thanks for your advice. It's good to know there is a resource like this out there.
Happy spring.
Jason