NEWBIE - Cost effectiveness question

[jbbergan]

I just bought a 1,200-square-foot townhouse that previously had a stove in it (now there's just a hole in my wall). I am looking at wood stoves and was quoted about $3,300 for a nice, new, small stove (for everything, including installation...). I had only budgeted about $2,000 for a stove, so now I am questioning if a wood stove is practical for me, money-wise. My main (only) consideration when looking into stoves was the money savings in heating costs. But with an initial investment of $3,300 (after tax credits, about $1,800), and considering that in the coldest winter months, it looks like my heating bill (all electric, baseboard heat) only goes up about $165-ish per month. And when you take into account the wood I'd buy at $150/cord, and if I'd go through 3 or 4 cords per winter, it would take me a long time to offset the $1,800.
So my question is: Do you think it makes sense for me to get a wood-burning stove? Is $3,300 a reasonable price (for stove, piping, installation, hearth pad... - everything)? After crunching these numbers, I'm not so sure it's a wise thing to do (from a money-savings perspective).

Thanks so much for the help and input!

 

[jbbergan]

$0.088/kWh. I assume that's what you were asking....

 

[begreen]

Seems a bit pricey for a small stove. What make and model? Was the bill broken down into stove costs separate from the installation costs? Is there a hearth pad in the bill as well?

 

[CarbonNeutral]

Other things to consider:

1. Stoves provide a focal heat in the room that you spend most of your winter time in. Other forms of heat, at best, heat a whole floor. Perhaps for you this means that a btu of wood in the stove is worth more than a btu out of your heating system.

2. If you have the time/inclination you can get free wood

3. It is more work, but the ambiance of a fire can get to be an addiction (is this a positive point?)

4. When the power is out, you still have heat, even to cook with

 

[Slow1]

I'm really curious about what stove it is you are looking at. It may well be that you can optimize your cost recovery by making sure you get the right stove in there, efficiency etc can vary from one stove to the next - certainly you can guarantee a loss if you put the wrong one in and end up either not using it or having to replace it in a year..

Also consider - if you are just looking at the $ savings, buying your wood in most areas it may be rather hard to actually recover the cost of the stove with installation etc very quickly. However, at $150/cord (assuming this is an accurate price for good quality wood C/S/D) you may be fine. Consider the work etc. Now with that said, there are a lot more reasons to burn than just the cost savings... I started out with a cost savings justification but that flew out the window when oil went down more than 50% over the last year yet I'm still going to burn simply since I love it and the 'work' associate with the process.

 

[bluefrier]

From a money-saving perspective it is better to scrounge or cut you own firewood. I broke even "money wise" in my second season of burning so from
now on every thing is icing on the cake. Even if you buy wood it will eventually pay off when you factor in rising electric rates, not to mention you
will be warmer while enjoying the fire. BTW, if money is the objective you can
always get a lower priced well made stove, they do exist. ;-)

 

[jbbergan]

The make and model is: Lopi Republic 1250, and the quote include all the piping, the hearth pad, installation....everything.

 

[BrotherBart]

If it is strictly a dollars and cents thing and the baseboard heat keeps the place comfortable for that price then just keep doing what you have been doing.

 

[Slow1]

If it is strictly a dollars and cents thing and the baseboard heat keeps the place comfortable for that price then just keep doing what you have been doing.

Perhaps spend the $'s upgrading insulation/windows etc on your house and get the tax rebate off that project...

 

[jbbergan]

THANKS EVERYONE for the input - I really appreciate you taking the time to help me!

 

[CrappieKeith]

Hold the phone!
There should be no question. A cord of hardwood can make the same heat 200 gallons of oil or 250-300 gallons of propane.
Let's say it takes a year for your stove or maybe 2 to pay foritself.You'll have several years of heating for next to nothing compared to writting that check every month for the heat. Don't cut corners.
Get a top shelf stove and heat that house. Pay yourself not the liquid fuel companies.
In 10 years I've put 30K back in my pocket

 

[Slow1]

Ok - to crunch some numbers....

Assumptions I'm making here:

6 month heating season (I have no idea what it is there actually)
1/2 cord/month of wood average will be required (guess really)

Taken from OP:
$165/mo current electric cost (this is "worst case" month - will be lower in some months but going with it)
$150/cord for wood


So - cost to heat with electric for 6 months: $990
Cost to heat with wood 6 months: $450
"Savings" per year of wood over elec: $540

Stove cost after rebates etc (from OP): $1800

Divide it out - straight line recovery time: 3.33 years to recover cost.

Now this assumes constant cost of fuel and no time value of money. So it really is just an estimate. Lots of variables to play with for those into doing financial analysis (and armchair financiers) this is a crude model only for rough illustration. However, what I would say is that for the OP it is not financially crazy to consider the stove as it is reasonable to consider that the other variables could well play out in a positive way to insure a payback within a reasonable time (i.e. less than 5-10 years, certainly within the expected lifetime of the stove). I expect, however, that close inspection of the electric bill may show that actual annual electric heating cost is well below the estimate used here and that may well significantly increase the years to recover.

In any case, if one does not enjoy the stove and the work involved in keeping it running it is hard to argue in favor of taking on the additional work.

Keith - if he is spending less than 1K on electric to heat each year right now, I think it is pretty clear that OP simply doesn't have the same heating costs to start with that you did so there simply isn't the potential in his setup (as I understand it) to get 30K back over 10 years as you have done. Granted electric prices can skyrocket up and change that, but he can add the stove at that time too.

 

[BrotherBart]

Hold the phone!
There should be no question. A cord of hardwood can make the same heat 200 gallons of oil or 250-300 gallons of propane.
Let's say it takes a year for your stove or maybe 2 to pay foritself.You'll have several years of heating for next to nothing compared to writting that check every month for the heat. Don't cut corners.
Get a top shelf stove and heat that house. Pay yourself not the liquid fuel companies.
In 10 years I've put 30K back in my pocket

He doesn't use any liquid fuel. And wood ain't free any way you do it.

 

[firefighterjake]

Per your original post . . . the price to me sounds about right . . . maybe a tad high . . . but of course a lot depends on the type of flue pipe and amount being sold. I think I paid close to $2,500, but that was with a deal from a co-worker/sweep who bought and installed the pipe for me.

As to whether or not to heat with wood . . . part of it comes down to doing the math and figuring out if it makes sense economically . . . and part of it is figuring out if the extra work is worth it or not . . . as you may figure out, many of us enjoy the smells, sights and even the work that comes with heating with wood. I'm like Slow . . . got a woodstove partly in response to the high oil prices last year . . . but now I'm sold on the ambiance and life-style . . . yes, it is a little more work than turning up the thermostat and it is a bit messier . . . but there is nothing quite like heating with wood . . . or just hanging out in front of the woodstove on a cold winter's night reading a book and listening to the crackling of the fire.

Incidentally, the other reason I went with a woodstove was also mentioned -- the ability to always have heat regardless of whether there is power or not in the house. Important where I live since we can sometimes have power outages for several hours . . . no big deal in the summer . . . kind of important in middle of January in Maine.

 

[i3bpvh]

you mentioned that you bought a townhouse, I don't know about in Montana, but here in MN a townhome comes with a postage stamp size yard, so you have to think about wood storage too.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Put aside everything I've said and let me attack it this way.
Pay someone else to heat your home or pay yourself to heat your home.
If he has a power outtage he can heat with a stove if the stove is made for that.

Oil was 5$ a gallon last year so my wood per cord made 200 gallons for $100 in wood. So the $1000 in oil subtract the $100 in wood leaves me with 900$ profit for every cord I burned.These were my numbers.

I'm not posting this to sell this guy a furnace.He wants and needs a stove.
Oil would have to get about to .75 cents for me to burn liquid fuel.
I also do not like being held over the barrel as far as when they fill the tank you pay what they demand.

I like being self sufficient as much as possible. I shoot and clean my own deer,grouse,ducks,geese and I catch fish for eating. I know what I'm eating and it's the leaner kind of meat.
I also know that no matter how high liquid fuel goes....I'm burning wood keeping my home to 75 degrees no matter if I have power or not, but that's just me.

Others can do what they want and need to do for themselves.

 

[Stevebass4]

one other thing to consider - with a stove the temps in my home are high 70s low 80s during the coldest months in new england

do you set your electric t-stats that high?


a stove is more of a lifestyle then anything - also if you have time you can purchase log length and process the wood yourself for a whole lot less

 

[BrotherBart]

a stove is more of a lifestyle then anything - also if you have time you can purchase log length and process the wood yourself for a whole lot less

At a townhouse? I dun tink so Lucy.

 

[savageactor7]

Skwala imo that's a little high. If it were me this is how I would proceed..

...employ a chimney sweep to clean and survey the chimney..hole in the wall. If the sweep say it's good to go for a wood stove...allrighty. Then hightail it over to a Loews or Home Depot and check out the Englander stoves...maybe a 13NC. Less than $1500 and you're ready to burn...if you can get seasoned wood.

 

[madrone]

The only way to really save money in your case is to gather wood yourself. I have a high-efficiency gas furnace and a mild climate. I don't spend an outrageous amount on heat. I don't really need to burn wood.

That said, I wouldn't give it up. I love the look and feel of a woodstove. If I can gather wood myself for free, then it's saving me money, but if I paid more than $75-$100 for a cord, I'd be losing money. For me, the way a stove heats the house is worth something in calculating the cost/benefit.

In your case, if you discovered you really liked the fire I suspect you wouldn't care if it took 20 years to break even. Baseboards can be pretty efficient, since they're zone heaters. That will be hard to beat dollar-wise. Plus stoves require more effort to run, and maintenance. If you buy a stove, you'd want to buy it for more than just it's ability to heat the house.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Town house/Condo assocation probably has rules as to if you can even keep wood, and if so how much.
At your KW cost, I'd be running that electricity if the bill is only $165/month in the heating months.
Good luck

 

[burr]

I just bought a 1,200-square-foot townhouse that previously had a stove in it (now there's just a hole in my wall). I am looking at wood stoves and was quoted about $3,300 for a nice, new, small stove (for everything, including installation...). I had only budgeted about $2,000 for a stove, so now I am questioning if a wood stove is practical for me, money-wise. My main (only) consideration when looking into stoves was the money savings in heating costs. But with an initial investment of $3,300 (after tax credits, about $1,800), and considering that in the coldest winter months, it looks like my heating bill (all electric, baseboard heat) only goes up about $165-ish per month. And when you take into account the wood I'd buy at $150/cord, and if I'd go through 3 or 4 cords per winter, it would take me a long time to offset the $1,800.
So my question is: Do you think it makes sense for me to get a wood-burning stove? Is $3,300 a reasonable price (for stove, piping, installation, hearth pad... - everything)? After crunching these numbers, I'm not so sure it's a wise thing to do (from a money-savings perspective).

Thanks so much for the help and input!

I wonder if this $165 is from previous owners info, if so, wasn't he heating with wood already ? Just has me wondering if the $165 was with wood heat included. $165 is kinda low even in Carolina.

 

[BrotherBart]

Many years ago I owned a three floor townhouse. Heating and cooling it was a non-event. I think I got as much or more heat from the ones on either side of me as I had to generate myself to heat the place.

 

[woodgeek]

To the OP: get a stove if you like fire and can afford the up front cost. I think your payback will be more than a few years, but sometimes we do things b/c we like to, rather than to save money.

To Keith: Not to pick nits...but I don't know where you get a 1 cord = 200 gal figure. I look up the theoretical max for 20% moisture wood at around 6400 BTU/lb, corresponding to about 25 MMBTU/cord for a hard wood like oak, maple or ash. If your stove is giving 70% (max real world) efficiency, that is 17.5 MMBTU delivered to your house. If fuel oil at 80% furnace eff gives 110 kBTU/gal,

I get the figure at: 17.5 MMBTU/ 0.11 MMBTU/gal => 160 gal/cord hardwood max.

But then I've got a smoke dragon, at most 55% eff, and figure 120 gal oil/cord.

At current/local prices, if I bought wood, I'd be hard pressed to save $200/cord ($400 for 120 gal @$3.30 versus $200/cord CSD wood), well below your estimated $900/cord. I would save only about $0.50 for every time I loaded the stove.

 

[JustWood]

Dooooooooo NOT,,, forget resale value of stove when your done with it!
:cheese: