Newbie seeking advice - Isle Royal burning fast and hot

[happyman]

Hi All,

I'm a newbie here but have spent time reading a number of topics over the past few weeks and am impressed by the depth of knowledge contained on these pages. Impressive.

I've been using a HUGE old Fisher (Grandpa Bear?) from the 70s. (The house was build in '78 and I suspect it has been here since then.) I was eating wood by the wheelbarrow load, plus smoking like crazy, so I decided to switch to something more "efficient." I ended up with a Quadrafire Isle Royal. I've seen a topics in regards to this stove, and it appears IR owners love their stoves.

Which brings me here. Mine is eating wood just as fast as my old Fisher. I kept a log today of burn times and fuel supply, and I'm seeing wood disappear quicker than I would expect. I'm getting about 4 hours on a full load of cured and dry maple with the primary air supply closed completely. (medium to small splits, not rounds). Even with the primary air control closed all the way down, it's burning around 500-550. This evening I reloaded with 5 chunks of maple and let it burn for about 10 minutes with the control opened (to establish a flame from the coals) before I shut it down. However, when I closed the primary air all the way, it was already out of control and burning way hotter than I'd like. I ended up hitting 750 degrees (stovetop temp) about an hour after I'd shut down the primary air all the way. The full load of 5 chunks of maple was about half devoured after an hour and a half and the temp had finally come down to 630ish. (Remember, this was with primary air closed down.)

On the old Fisher, I would close off the air supply knobs, and close the damper when I added wood at night. When I did this, three maple logs would still have plenty of coals left to light a fire in the morning.

Here's some info that may be pertinent:
1. The home has a masonry chimney with an 8" stainless liner. I hooked directly into the 8" with an increaser. (or is it a reducer?) -- I read on a few posts that this is OK. (to go from 6" to 8")
2. The stove in in the basement of a 2 story home, so the chimney is 2 stories high. (the home just under 3k sq ft.)
3. The maple has been split and stacked for two full years, under cover.
4. The flames are still big and visible even with the primary air closed all the way.

So, here are my questions:
1. What am I doing wrong?
2. Should it really be burning that fast?
3. Can I install a flue damper (is that what they're called?) with an EPA stove? Would that help? (I'm wondering if I'm getting too much draft?)
4. What does it mean to modify the air controls so they can be shut off completely? I saw the following in a recent post by precaud, "modify the air controls so they can be shut off completely. I do it to every stove that I get." I'm guessing that although I have the air control "closed" it's not really closed. Are there instructions on how to do this for the IR? I'm not afraid to do some modification, but a few pointers would be helpful.

Thanks in advance for your guidance... Hopefully, these aren't totally newbie questions, but I'm not going to hide the fact that I am indeed an EPA stove newbie, through and through. I've tried to do my research by lurking on this site, but obviously there's a lot I don't know.

Thanks!

Blaine

------------------
Quadrafire Isle Royal
Fisher Grandpa Bear
Husky 350
8 lb. maul + sweat

 

[begreen]

Welcome Blaine. If I get this correct, this sounds like a 3 story tall chimney (basement + 2 story), is that correct? How tall is the actual flue, 30-35 ft? From what you have described, it sure seems like overdrafting. A stack damper is an easy retrofit and will give you more control. Also, burning larger splits should slow down the fire a bit.

FWIW, I am also burning soft maple. Under the best of conditions it doesn't seem to have great burn times.

 

[BrotherBart]

I don't know about your stove etc. but I came off of years of burning a pre-EPA biggie with no liner to burning a EPA biggie with liner and one thing I have had a hard time getting through my head is not to add wood to a hot stove. All hell breaks loose.

What I have found works best is to let the stove get down to coals and a temp range no hotter than 300 stove top temp. Then put all of the wood you are going to load in at one time. With the good coal bed the stove is going to be ready to damp down 50% or more in just a few minutes and ready to damp down to cruising range (on mine that is about 10%) in ten to fifteen minutes after that. Adding fresh dry wood to it when it is 400 or over is just asking for the stove temp to head for the sky taking the wood with it. Additionally I have found that I don't have to fill that pup all the way up like I did the old one to get the same temps and burn times.

Yours may be different as all stoves, wood and chimney combinations are but that is the routine that brought sanity back to this place. Give it a try with three pretty good size splits and see what happens.

 

[LarryD]

Happyman,

I installed an IR a few weeks ago. Sounds to me like you are having the same issue we had with our previous stove. I currently (last night got 8 hours+, it could of gone longer but I put wood in stove at 5:30 am) will get atleast a 7 hour burn time. I think Elk defined burn time best by saying that your burn time is really over after the stove top temps go below 300*. You are definitely ripping through wood. As I said we had the issue with our DW. When I installed the IR, I installed a butterfly damper and that has fixed my overd raft issue and the stove performs awesome! If you decide to go down that road make sure you are definitely over drafting. I can tell you from my experiences at that point of how the stove reacts to the damper. I think you first need to rule a few things out. Have you done the dollar bill test on the doors and ash pan? Does the stove perform "better" when it is warm out? etc. I am sure that there are a few people that have far more experience than I do especially with your set up.

FYI-I am using about 1/3 of the wood I used last year at this point, and the temps in the house are far more consistant.

Any one else?

Good luck.

Larry D

 

[happyman]

Welcome Blaine. If I get this correct, this sounds like a 3 story tall chimney (basement + 2 story), is that correct? How tall is the actual flue, 30-35 ft?

Thanks for the welcome, and reply!

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear here. It's two total stories. When I cleaned the chimney the other day, I used seven 3 ft rods, so I'm guessing it's approx 22 - 23'. (I have another foot or two after the 90 elbow to connect to the stove.)

From what you have described, it sure seems like overdrafting. A stack damper is an easy retrofit and will give you more control. Also, burning larger splits should slow down the fire a bit.

FWIW, I am also burning soft maple. Under the best of conditions it doesn't seem to have great burn times.

So, what is a realistic expectation? Is 8 hours reasonable? I have experimented with different sized splits a bit. The one burn that lasted the longest was a 9 inch round that was a little wet (but cured). Not sure if it lasted long because it was wet, or because it was round. (Probably a combination.)

 

[happyman]

I don't know about your stove etc. but I came off of years of burning a pre-EPA biggie with no liner to burning a EPA biggie with liner and one thing I have had a hard time getting through my head is not to add wood to a hot stove. All hell breaks loose.

Thanks for the reply BrotherBart.

Well, *something* broke loose last night, not sure exactly what it was...

My burn that hit 750 was a packed-completely-full firebox with 5 chunks placed directly on coals. It seems that my mistake was leaving the air intake on full open for too long. (It was only about 15 minutes). But, once it was going, it didn't want to slow back down.

What I have found works best is to let the stove get down to coals and a temp range no hotter than 300 stove top temp. Then put all of the wood you are going to load in at one time. With the good coal bed the stove is going to be ready to damp down 50% or more in just a few minutes and ready to damp down to cruising range (on mine that is about 10%) in ten to fifteen minutes after that. Adding fresh dry wood to it when it is 400 or over is just asking for the stove temp to head for the sky taking the wood with it. Additionally I have found that I don't have to fill that pup all the way up like I did the old one to get the same temps and burn times.

How can you tell when it's ready to go to 50%, then down to 10%. What are you looking for? Flame size? Flame amount?

Yours may be different as all stoves, wood and chimney combinations are but that is the routine that brought sanity back to this place. Give it a try with three pretty good size splits and see what happens.

I'll definitely try letting it cool down to below 300 before adding wood. I haven't really be waiting for it to cool down to a certain point before adding wood. However in general I have been waiting until it's a coal bed, so I suspect I have been close to 300. Generally, I have left it open until I see flames, then I've closed it down all the way. The flames do change pace, but they definitely don't go away...

 

[happyman]

Happyman,

I installed an IR a few weeks ago. Sounds to me like you are having the same issue we had with our previous stove. I currently (last night got 8 hours+, it could of gone longer but I put wood in stove at 5:30 am) will get atleast a 7 hour burn time. I think Elk defined burn time best by saying that your burn time is really over after the stove top temps go below 300*. You are definitely ripping through wood. As I said we had the issue with our DW. When I installed the IR, I installed a butterfly damper and that has fixed my overd raft issue and the stove performs awesome! If you decide to go down that road make sure you are definitely over drafting.

How can I tell if I'm over drafting? (Is there a simple test?)

I can tell you from my experiences at that point of how the stove reacts to the damper. I think you first need to rule a few things out. Have you done the dollar bill test on the doors and ash pan?

I'm not familiar with this test. I'm guessing I hold a dollar bill close to the seals to see if it gets sucked in? (Thus identifying a leak?) If you can point me to instructions to this test, I'd be grateful. (I'll try some searching on "dollar bill test.")

Does the stove perform "better" when it is warm out? etc.

Hmm. Good question. I'm not sure on that. I've only had it going for two days and haven't paid attention to burn times in relation to outside air temp. I'll pay attention to that as well.

FYI-I am using about 1/3 of the wood I used last year at this point, and the temps in the house are far more consistant.

Wow! That's significant. (And where I want to be.) I was hoping for 33% to 50% savings, but 66% is huge! How long have you been burning?

Your numbers definitely give me hope! Thanks Larry.

 

[LarryD]

Happy,

Leaving the start up air open too long is definitely an issue. If you close once everything is caught can you regulate flame with air control? With a good bed of coals, I leave the start up air open about 5-7 minutes. I close the start up air, once the stack temps are up to 700* (with a condar probe termometer) I close the in stove pipe damper (amount depending upon outside temp, the colder it is outside the more I close damper), Than I begin to cut back the primary air to about 3/4. This seems to be the seet spot at the moment. I have been getting about 7-8 hours out of mostly Maple (red, Sugar, and some Silver) and Red Oak mixed in.

If you can't regulate heat out put or flame with primary air you probably are over drafting some how.

Larry D

 

[happyman]

Happy,

Leaving the start up air open too long is definitely an issue. If you close once everything is caught can you regulate flame with air control? With a good bed of coals, I leave the start up air open about 5-7 minutes. I close the start up air, once the stack temps are up to 700* (with a condar probe termometer) I close the in stove pipe damper (amount depending upon outside temp, the colder it is outside the more I close damper), Than I begin to cut back the primary air to about 3/4. This seems to be the seet spot at the moment. I have been getting about 7-8 hours out of mostly Maple (red, Sugar, and some Silver) and Red Oak mixed in.

If you can't regulate heat out put or flame with primary air you probably are over drafting some how.

Larry D

I'm not leaving the start up air going. I close that after I have an established flame. I think the key for me may be a stove pipe damper. I just didn't know if it was taboo to use those in conjunction with the EPA stoves. It sounds to me like you're using it to control your draft.

I saw in another thread there's a tool that allows you to check your draft. Maybe I'll need to invest in one of those...

Thanks.

Blaine

 

[hilly]

In case you didn't find it, the dollar bill test is where you close the door on a dollar bill. If you can't pull it out the seal is fine, but if it slides out, the seal is poor.

 

[begreen]

I have one on my Jotul with about the same amount of pipe. Is this single or double wall pipe coming off the stove? They come in double wall pipe so it will match the installation if this is what is on the stove.

’m not familiar with this test. I’m guessing I hold a dollar bill close to the seals to see if it gets sucked in? (Thus identifying a leak?) If you can point me to instructions to this test, I’d be grateful. (I’ll try some searching on “dollar bill test.")

:lol: Ok, that made my day. The dollar bill test is performed by closing the door on a dollar bill and then pulling the dollar out. There should be some resistance. If it comes out easily the gasket is not sealing at that location. New stove doors can need adjusting until the gaskets have seated well. Be sure to test every gasket (door, top, ashpan) in several locations.

 

[happyman]

I have one on my Jotul with about the same amount of pipe. Is this single or double wall pipe coming off the stove? They come in double wall pipe so it will match the installation if this is what is on the stove.

’m not familiar with this test. I’m guessing I hold a dollar bill close to the seals to see if it gets sucked in? (Thus identifying a leak?) If you can point me to instructions to this test, I’d be grateful. (I’ll try some searching on “dollar bill test.")

:lol: Ok, that made my day. The dollar bill test is performed by closing the door on a dollar bill and then pulling the dollar out. There should be some resistance. If it comes out easily the gasket is not sealing at that location. New stove doors can need adjusting until the gaskets have seated well. Be sure to test every gasket (door, top, ashpan) in several locations.

Ha! I'm glad I could give you a chuckle. See, my newbieness is shining brightly!

I'll try the dollar bill test. Do I go all around the entire door with the bill? (I.e., test each section of the seal?) Visually the seal does have an indentation around the perimeter where it contacts the stove, so it appears that it is making a seal...

The pipe is a single wall liner in a masonry chimney.

Thanks again.

Blaine

 

[happyman]

Update:

7:55 AM - Surface temp 0. This AM the fire was completely out and the stove temp read at 0. I did find one ember buried deep, but I ended up building a fire from scratch. I put in 7 chunks, medium to small. This completely filled the firebox. Once the fire was established (stove surface hit 400 f), I shut down the air flow all the way. (This took about 10 minutes). However, the temp continued to rise despite the air flow being shut down all the way.

8:30 AM - Surface temp 850! Yikes. The stove top hit 850. I put the thermometer on the chimney pipe and it was 550. This is completely closed down, so there was nothing I could do to slow it down.

12:46 PM - Surface temp 250. There was a nice coal bed left, but that's pretty much it. So, 4.5 hours to completely devour a full load of Maple, with all air settings completely closed.


I pics of my setup would help, I'll gladly post whatever...

Also, Precaud said this: “modify the air controls so they can be shut off completely. I do it to every stove that I get.” Would that help my situation? Are there any pointers someone can direct me to?

Thanks again for all of your help!

Blaine

 

[derbygreg]

happyman welcome.

I too have the Isle Royale and the reason mine burned so darn hot was that the ashpan drawer did not close tightly. I moved the screws around and got it to work correctly.

This stove is a monster and does run hot. I like to keep mine under 600.

Have you installed a blower fan yet? If not that helps too. I barely have the thing blowing and it keeps the temp down.

Once I read the rest of the post I will give some answers.

This forum is very helpful.

 

[MichaelS]

If I were you I would put a damper in the stove pipe. If it works you know it is an overdraft problem and your fixed, if it doesn't it has only cost a you few dollars to try.

 

[Hogwildz]

If you modify the air intake, you void the warranty. Something to think about before you do it.
When starting with no coals from a cold start, don't stuff it full.
I agree with trying the inline damper,small amount of money to spend.
The dollar bill test is done on a cold stove, and yes do it in every spot around the entire gasket seal.

 

[RedRanger]

Blaine: I`m wondering if you have a lot of (pitch) in your wood. Here on Vancouver Island we burn mostly fir. Anyway, 3 weeks ago I put 3 pieces of 15 inch long and 6inch deep chunks of fuel in my fireplace and I noticed that one piece had some nice looking pitch on the outside. WELL surprise,surprise, when that beast caught fire it burned furiously hot for an hour and a half. Unbeknown to me that pitch was marbled all thru that piece of fir. I turned the secondary air down to almost zero, primary air low as it would go , and closed the damper half way. Made no difference that sucker was determined to burn hot as hell till it finally burned up. Maybe just take a second look at your wood pile and see if there is a lot of sap or pitch in it?

 

[LarryD]

Happy,

Remember one thing. Don't get discouraged. Once you get this figured out, you will love this stove!

Happyman,

I installed an IR a few weeks ago. Sounds to me like you are having the same issue we had with our previous stove. I currently (last night got 8 hours+, it could of gone longer but I put wood in stove at 5:30 am) will get atleast a 7 hour burn time. I think Elk defined burn time best by saying that your burn time is really over after the stove top temps go below 300*. You are definitely ripping through wood. As I said we had the issue with our DW. When I installed the IR, I installed a butterfly damper and that has fixed my overd raft issue and the stove performs awesome! If you decide to go down that road make sure you are definitely over drafting.

How can I tell if I'm over drafting? (Is there a simple test?)If you can not control the flame/heat with air control, I would consider that an over draft. What happens is the draft is pulling so hard it is pulling air through the stove. Someone else may be able to articulate it better than I. If you have "run away" temps that would also lead me to believe you are over drafting.

I can tell you from my experiences at that point of how the stove reacts to the damper. I think you first need to rule a few things out. Have you done the dollar bill test on the doors and ash pan?

I'm not familiar with this test. I'm guessing I hold a dollar bill close to the seals to see if it gets sucked in? (Thus identifying a leak?) If you can point me to instructions to this test, I'd be grateful. (I'll try some searching on "dollar bill test.") I take it you've learned what this is. If not look in the WIKI, there is a run down in there I think.

Does the stove perform "better" when it is warm out? etc.

Hmm. Good question. I'm not sure on that. I've only had it going for two If yodays and haven't paid attention to burn times in relation to outside air temp. I'll pay attention to that as well. If you are over drafting, it will get much stronger when the temps are lower.

FYI-I am using about 1/3 of the wood I used last year at this point, and the temps in the house are far more consistant.

Wow! That's significant. (And where I want to be.) I was hoping for 33% to 50% savings, but 66% is huge! How long have you been burning?

Your numbers definitely give me hope! Thanks Larry.

It is all relative! My wife and I have discussed this at length.
We have been burning fo r acouple of weeks. When we burn it is 24/7. We have had some intermitant warm/cool days. We seem to be using about a third of the wood we would have used with the same weather conditions last 2 years. We threw a lot of wood through that DW! That is another discussion though and a differnet issue.Your comments on altering your stove. Do not alter it. Fix the problem. Check to make sure all of the gaskets are sealing (ala dollar bill test). I would then try a butterfly damper. It can't hurt. It think I paid $6.00 for mine.

With your temps getting that high with the primary air closed off, I would think it is an overdraft. I can control my temps very easily with our primary air. The stove definitely has a sweet spot, too much air and it cranks up pretty quick not enough and it smolders.

Have you called your dealer? They might be of some help as well.

I hope this helps!
Keep us posted

Larry D I had to update, my comments didn't high lite!

 

[Todd]

This is my guess. You have an overdraft situation because your liner is 8". The stove takes 6". You might think the larger 8" would reduce draft, but non cat stoves can't completely cut off the air supply, so if the chimney is hot enough it will pull as much air as it wants to. I remmember a former member here,"Mountain stove guy" stating this is what happened to his Mansfield in his stove shop with an 8" flue, and at his home he had the same stove with a 6" liner that burned much better and longer.

First I would try a pipe damper like others have suggested, only a couple bucks. It should slow it down. But I bet replacing that 8" with 6" would help also, but more costly.

 

[happyman]

Your comments on altering your stove. Do not alter it. Fix the problem. Check to make sure all of the gaskets are sealing (ala dollar bill test). I would then try a butterfly damper. It can't hurt. It think I paid $6.00 for mine.

With your temps getting that high with the primary air closed off, I would think it is an overdraft. I can control my temps very easily with our primary air. The stove definitely has a sweet spot, too much air and it cranks up pretty quick not enough and it smolders.

Have you called your dealer? They might be of some help as well.

I hope this helps!
Keep us posted

The common theme for advice seems to be a chimney damper. I'll try that, after the dollar bill test. Also, thanks for the advice to refrain from altering my stove.

When you say "sweet spot," what does that look like? Do you see flames at all? What is your surface temp when you're in this zone?

I did call the local Quadrafire dealer, and they referred me to Quadrafire tech-support. I'll be calling them tomorrow and will let you know what they say.

I'll also keep everyone posted as to what happens after I install the chimney damper.

Thanks again. You've been great.

Blaine (happyman)

 

[happyman]

Blaine: I`m wondering if you have a lot of (pitch) in your wood. Here on Vancouver Island we burn mostly fir. Anyway, 3 weeks ago I put 3 pieces of 15 inch long and 6inch deep chunks of fuel in my fireplace and I noticed that one piece had some nice looking pitch on the outside. WELL surprise,surprise, when that beast caught fire it burned furiously hot for an hour and a half. Unbeknown to me that pitch was marbled all thru that piece of fir. I turned the secondary air down to almost zero, primary air low as it would go , and closed the damper half way. Made no difference that sucker was determined to burn hot as hell till it finally burned up. Maybe just take a second look at your wood pile and see if there is a lot of sap or pitch in it?

The wood I am currently burning doesn't have a lot of pitch. However, as my other wood dries, I will be burning fir and hemlock, and I'm sure I'll run into some pitch. I'll keep my eye out for that...

Thanks for the suggestion.

Blaine (happyman)

 

[happyman]

This is my guess. You have an overdraft situation because your liner is 8". The stove takes 6". You might think the larger 8" would reduce draft, but non cat stoves can't completely cut off the air supply, so if the chimney is hot enough it will pull as much air as it wants to. I remmember a former member here,"Mountain stove guy" stating this is what happened to his Mansfield in his stove shop with an 8" flue, and at his home he had the same stove with a 6" liner that burned much better and longer.

First I would try a pipe damper like others have suggested, only a couple bucks. It should slow it down. But I bet replacing that 8" with 6" would help also, but more costly.

I'm definitely seeing the pipe damper as a theme. Seems like the least expensive test too. (I guess the dollar bill test is the cheapest, once I learned what it was. I'm just glad I didn't start throwing dollar bills in there to watch them burn.)

So, for the pipe damper, I guess I would close down the stove, then adjust the pipe damper to watch the flame, and how it reacts? How low is too low. What does a clean, long-lasting, slow burn look like. (I assume those aren't mutually exclusive.)

Thanks!

Blaine (happyman)

 

[begreen]

It's a matter of judgement, but you'll get the hang of it. The butterfly stack damper doesn't choke the stack completely even when totally closed. So there will be some draft still when the stove is hot.

Yes, you have the basic procedure down. Try closing the stack damper 50% (damper handle at a 45 deg. angle) and see how that works for temperature and stove regulation. If the stove suddenly seems more responsive to the air control, that's the sweet spot. If not, try closing it another 25%.

 

[happyman]

Update:

I just wanted to update all of you where I am with my tests.

The dollar bill test passed fine. (Tip for other newbies: Make sure the fire is out when you do the dollar bill test. I learned this the hard way and have five half-twenties. Expensive test!) ;-) (not really.)

I called Quadrafire and they couldn't "officially" condone a chimney damper. However, the support guy gave me some good advice. He said a common problem with the Isle Royal is that ash pan will often leak air and create a "turbo" for the fire. He suggested the following test, which I though was a good troubleshooting test:

1. remove the grate from the bottom of the stove (the one that has holes in it to allow the ashes to fall into the ashpan)
2. get a large sheet of heavy duty aluminum foil (about 2x the grate size) and fold it in half.
3. place it in the grate seat
4. fit the grate in its original location (on top of the foil) effectively creating a seal between the stove and the ashpan.

This entirely eliminates the ashpan from the equation.

SO, I tried it and guess what...

I was able to smother a fire by closing the primary air all the way. This is a very good sign! I will evaluate (with a clock) a few burns over the next day or two and will report back. If this test does indeed point the finger at the ash tray, he said I can seal the joints on the ash tray with "fiber cement." Do any of you have some tips on where I can get fiber cement? Are there any particular brands I should look out for?

I'm hopeful it's just the ash pan!

Thanks again for all your advice.

Regards,

Blaine

 

[begreen]

That's great news. Good test. Usually the only place that air gets in via the ash pan is the door. Carefully check the ashpan door gasket seal all the way around.

PS: You should not have to be doing this. It's a new stove. Who and where's the dealer in this sale? You've already gone above and beyond the call of duty.