newbie to wood boilers, intro and plea for direction

[Pokeman]

OK got a heating Oil $$$ issue. Have a 3200 sqft home with baseboard water heat from an Oil burner.. Lots of old windows and cathedrial ceilings. In the process of replacing a few windows a year but they are call extra large customs so its $$$

Wife and I are young and 2 years ago were going through a fuel oil tank 5-6 weeks in the winter. almost ran us out of the house. so I got a freebe wood stove and piped it into the downstairs. S draft, takes a 24 inch long. At first it was saving up up to 60% on our heating bill. I cut wood from my property so its 'free' if my blood and sweat means nothing. We are tired of the radiant heat and need the room back that the wood stove is in. We want a side car indoor wood boiler. The current oil heater is in a work shop connected to the house, plenty of room and mess doesn't matter. that room also has an unused 6 inch chimney in the ceiling. We want to get a wood boiler to not replace the oil but really bring the winter oil consumption to a minimum. a few thoughts...

-If I get one that rated a little small for my house and it burns wide open all the time, will I get less creosole?
- smart or dumb to get one that too small so it will just help?
-what BTU range am I in?
- could this be my ticket? http://elmira.craigslist.org/for/1549913817.html
-I am cheap

help is much appreciated.

 

[stee6043]

My thoughts:

It's smart to go a little "small" based on the plan you have. If you have no plans to add thermal storage later you can save yourself some wood and insure a clean chimney by sizing your boiler to be at/near your actual normal load demands. Less idle is a good thing any way you slice it.

You need to do a heatloss calc for btu range (google slantfin calculator).

Tarm is a great name...not sure about the older ones though. One thing you will find on this board, however, is that "cheap" and good are rarely found in the same sentance for hydronic heating. Good luck with your search!

 

[Gooserider]

It would work, and as you suggested, running undersized would keep the chimney cleaner... The old Tarms are pretty good units, but they aren't as clean as a modern gasser, so you will burn more wood than you would with a newer boiler - however the new gassers cost a LOT more...

For what you describe, this approach would probably do, and you can always upgrade to a better boiler later if you decide that you want to. Of course, you do need to do the same kind of careful examination on the Tarm as you would on any kind of used boiler, etc... I also agree with the earlier suggestions of doing a heat loss evaluation, and so forth.

It is also worth considering doing thermal storage even with the older boilers, for the same reasons of keeping the boiler out of idle mode, and dealing with the fact that a system sized for "design day" conditions will be over-sized for most of the rest of the time.

Gooserider

 

[mikeyny]

I have an oler tarm and it was "cheap". older used tarms are on ebay all day long, some resonable some not. The old tarm underburn technology is simple, almost foolproof and fairly efficient. A new "gasser" is much better but much more money. If you can't do or afford storage I suggest a slightly undersized boiler. It will work harder but also efficient, but, It WILL OVERHEAT ON A WARM DAY if you are not paying attention. You have to learn how to modulate your wood load on those warmer days and be sure to have an overheat loop integrated into the system. this past month I had to pay national grid their service fee of 22 bux or so, since I only use 3 therms of nat. gas. And I only went to the chiropractor once. So far so good.

 

[mikeyny]

I just took a peak on the elmira cl site. that is a good boiler and a good price. i have one very similar. If you get it, keep in mind, it requires very well seasoned wood, the smaller the splits the better. Some boilers bragg about using unsplit rounds, less work etc. dont be fooled. that tarm is good as long as you know what to expect. You will need a good chimny with good draft. You will have to learn how to load it so smoke does not come out of the loading door and drive your family out. Get the operators manual and read it a hundred times, be safe. Once you learn how to run it, you wont have to baby sit it. You can expect 4 or 5 hour burn times. I reload mine at nite, 10 oclock house is 65 to 68. on a 5 degree nite house is 60ish or less at 6am, I have to re-lite and go to work, 6 pm house is 60ish or less and re-lite. 3000 sf old victorian, 8 to 12 cords a yr. full cords. I cut my own. Domestic hot water is great, nice long hot showers. Also Tarm is still a real manufacturer of some of the best boilers out there. Parts are readily available. good luck with you venture.
Mike

 

[flyingcow]

OK got a heating Oil $$$ issue. Have a 3200 sqft home with baseboard water heat from an Oil burner.. Lots of old windows and cathedrial ceilings. In the process of replacing a few windows a year but they are call extra large customs so its $$$

Wife and I are young and 2 years ago were going through a fuel oil tank 5-6 weeks in the winter. almost ran us out of the house. so I got a freebe wood stove and piped it into the downstairs. S draft, takes a 24 inch long. At first it was saving up up to 60% on our heating bill. I cut wood from my property so its 'free' if my blood and sweat means nothing. We are tired of the radiant heat and need the room back that the wood stove is in. We want a side car indoor wood boiler. The current oil heater is in a work shop connected to the house, plenty of room and mess doesn't matter. that room also has an unused 6 inch chimney in the ceiling. We want to get a wood boiler to not replace the oil but really bring the winter oil consumption to a minimum. a few thoughts...

-If I get one that rated a little small for my house and it burns wide open all the time, will I get less creosole?
- smart or dumb to get one that too small so it will just help?
-what BTU range am I in?
- could this be my ticket? http://elmira.craigslist.org/for/1549913817.html
-I am cheap

help is much appreciated.

It took a few times for me to "get"what you're talkin' about, but think I understand. Short version, don't be cheap, you've got a good set up to put in 1st rate boiler. Do it! Cheap is always not a way to save money.

Do you plan on living there for a long time?!

Seriously, you from this side of the pond? "side car indoor wood boiler" knew what you meant, but...................

 

[Pokeman]

It took a few times for me to "get"what you're talkin' about, but think I understand. Short version, don't be cheap, you've got a good set up to put in 1st rate boiler. Do it! Cheap is always not a way to save money.


Seriously, you from this side of the pond? "side car indoor wood boiler" knew what you meant, but...................

but nothing, you illiterate?

Asked for help not another forum tough guy trying to insult a newbie. as reading comprehension is obviously not you strong suit, newbie means "I dont have any experience with this stuff"

what an uninformative and trollish post from someone with 600+ posts. Is this one of those clicky arrogant forums or If I stick around are there people that will try and help? I would really like some help but if this if this is the norm....

 

[Gooserider]

Whoa folks - lets try being a little gentler with each other - I don't want to get into using my magic moderator buttons...

Pokeman, you won't find many sites with people that are generally more helpful and friendly than this one, but some of our members are a bit abrasive, without necessarily intending to be... It helps if you pay more attention to the meaning of what folks are saying, without getting overly excited about the way they say it...

flyingcow, lets try being a little more polite to our newcomers - they are new, so don't always know all the terminology...

Getting back to the subject, what I take FC's advice to mean is that rather than rushing into an older "budget price" boiler, you might be better to save until you can afford a modern gasifier, especially if you are planning to live in the house for a long time. Not a bad idea IMHO, but one does have to look at what you can really afford to do. Your setup sounds like it would work well to do a nice modern gasser with storage, and one can argue whether or not it is wise to go for the cheap approach with the hope of upgrading later as opposed to spending the money to do it right from the start....

Doing it right is preferable, but if you do have to go budget, I would try to design your system to allow for minimally disruptive upgrades later - which we can help you think about.

Gooserider

 

[Birdman]

pokemon. stick around on the site. it is worth it. I was a newbie last year. I am soooo glad i stuck with this site and i have learned tons. I almost bought an OWB but I hit this site and now i have a one year old ( 2nd yer using it this winter) Tarm solo 40. Best decision i ever made. This site really convinced me to do it. Great site to answer all of your questions. Hope this helps

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

WTF?!??

I thought I was on the Hearth.com site? How come my name and password from Hearth.com work on this site? I never meant to join the CyberFisticuffsnWearFeelingsOnMySleeve.com site . . . .


Lighten up everyone, it's Friday and sunny :cheese:

 

[Pokeman]

WTF?!??

I thought I was on the Hearth.com site? How come my name and password from Hearth.com work on this site? I never meant to join the CyberFisticuffsnWearFeelingsOnMySleeve.com site . . . .


Lighten up everyone, it's Friday and sunny :cheese:

alright, alright.

Looking into the Tarm indoor options. I have money to spend on a new wood system I am just cheep! which means it will take a lot of research before I do anything. And I will get over my head and try to do it myself.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

I don't think FC was intending an insult, just having a little fun, some of us do that from time to time. Btw I probably heard the same term in my family years ago as one side is from UK & the other is German, & I can imagine the German side going....huh....when someone from the Uk side mentioned side car. Ok enough on that subject. You are definately in the right place to learn (more than you thought you needed to know), get advice on all topics from a great bunch of people (many of whom are pros in their field) or have done enough that well....they could teach anyone willing/needing to learn. Needing to learn is the group I am in btw, hydronic heating is not my trade. You mention that you have a 6" chimney. Suggest you inspect/clean it & determine if a larger chimney could be put in if required or a new one if this one no longer meets code requirements (you will want to keep your ins. co happy). Suggest also that you think long term in this process as many of these units are still in service 20+ years after install. The better your choice, the more you will enjoy those 20+ years. Can't say I agree with going small as this will have you working when the boiler says so, suggest you purchase a unit with storage (now or when budget allows) as this will have you working when it suits your schedule, putting energy into storage & the house will use that energy on an as needed basis without you having to be there to build a fire. Suggest that you think of eliminating the "oil man" or at least reducing your need for oil to a trickle (that you control), allows you to take a winter vacation & burn oil then, if no neighbor is available to tend your boiler while you are away. Your Btu range is going to be determined by a heatloss calc, based on the coldest day you experience in your area, plenty of on line tools to help with that. If you are still in need of help with that just post here & I am sure someone will help. Your cathedral ceilings are going to consume a lot of btu's as heat loves to rise & this may have an effect on the emitters you use in that area of the home. As far as creosote is concerned "any" wood fired boiler will operate cleanest when it is used as a batch burner, load it, lite it, burn it all, then repeat. This is also where storage comes in handy as any btu's created that are in excess of demand are stored for later use allowing you to always run your boiler flat out.

One last very minor point, you will have to excuse some of us "old codgers" when we attempt humor & in your opinion miss the mark, we very rarely intend anything negative. It's just that....well....after more than 3 decades in the trades in my case....well....the tools I use everyday to build homes....are a lot sharper than the one's I would use to create humor.

 

[flyingcow]

It took a few times for me to "get"what you're talkin' about, but think I understand. Short version, don't be cheap, you've got a good set up to put in 1st rate boiler. Do it! Cheap is always not a way to save money.


Seriously, you from this side of the pond? "side car indoor wood boiler" knew what you meant, but...................

but nothing, you illiterate?

Asked for help not another forum tough guy trying to insult a newbie. as reading comprehension is obviously not you strong suit, newbie means "I dont have any experience with this stuff"

what an uninformative and trollish post from someone with 600+ posts. Is this one of those clicky arrogant forums or If I stick around are there people that will try and help? I would really like some help but if this if this is the norm....

I wasn't being tough guy, or insulting. I wasn't abrasive. I tend to think you need to relax. Have fun figuring out what you want to do. Good Luck.

 

[leaddog]

Probably nobody here is more cheap than I am and I'm a do it your self guy. Do alot of reading and digesting here as there is some great knowledge here. I found this site after I had bought my eko-80 and had done alot of research on boilers and I really don't think I would have been happy with it if I hadn't found this site. There was so little info out there on gasifiers and how to run them. I scrounge things at auctions, yardsales, ebay, etc so I was able to really keep my costs down. that said I've got alot of extra stuff that I have money into that I'm not using and haven't got rid of yet so maybe it hasn't been that cheap.
I understand the budget thing as I have a stepson who is on a very tight budget and is thinking about going to a reg indoor boiler in a shed. I have talked him into going with some storage so he can burn it full out and store the btu's with out having it idle. That way it will be alot more efficiant and he won't have to feed it every 4 to 6 hrs. He don't like getting up in the middle of the nite and in the shoulder seasons he won't over heat the house. Then when he can afford it he plans on going with a gasifier as he can see how using less wood is better.
leaddog

 

[Como]

So what's a side car indoor boiler?

It is cheaper to do it properly, once.

 

[Nofossil]

Probably nobody here is more cheap than I am...

I don't mean to get competitive here, but I'm pretty sure I'm cheaper than anyone else around ;-)

I'm the guy with the $200 solar hot water system, after all. I think that thriftiness driven to the edge of pathological is an asset for life in general, and certainly seems to be a strong theme on this forum.

However, 'cheap' doesn't mean that I won't spend money when it makes sense. Like so many others, I studied my options very carefully and ended up with a gasifier. Of course, I did all the installation, plumbing, and controls myself. Some would say that it shows....

 

[sweetheat]

my first blogs were asking the same questions you ask here today. How to get and use information for the betterment of my family. Every-mans goal. Education is your cheapest tool. For a cheapskate DIY guy like me, my first blogs were searching for ways to heat a large wood shop the least expensive way possible. Burning wood my whole life I jumped at the thought of more BTU's than I could ever possibly use. My journey lead me to the Tarm wood gasser. Many boilers were considered before purchase. My signature at first was (hind sight is 20/20). With education I learned after boiler purchase that storage is the way to go. Not being a plumber or very computer literate at that time I stumbled forward. By dumb luck I have now arrived at a warm fuzzy place called, satisfaction. I fired the Tarm last night, first time in 2 days in a cold Maine winter. I walk away many days having to do nothing at all except stare at it. My wood consumption the first winter 3 cords. This winter I'm using the last of what was left from last winters 4 cord. Could that be? Yes indeed. in-floor radiant, good insulation, new construction. My plumber says I'm blowing the heat loss charts off the face of the earth. That's when the warm fuzzy feeling kicks in again. Build it right the first time has been my motto, look where it got me! good luck on your journey Pokeman! sweetheat

 

[Como]

Nice site in your signature.

One of my favourite pubs was built that way, it dates back to the 13th Century.

 

[WoodNotOil]

I would just echo that if a gasser is definately out of your budget for now, to put in storage and plan the system as if you had a gasser. That way you can burn the unit full boar to incease efficiency (a little...), be able to burn in shoulder season without overheating, and (if you put a coil in the tank) get dhw in the summer. Then later on you can put in a gasser...

Make good use of all the information here, I wish this place had existed when I was shopping for boilers....