Non EPA vs EPA

[Yamaha_gurl]

Hey all,

Well it's getting slow here on the hearth forums, so figure I'll start posting my questions away.

First year burner here, bought a 1980 Fisher Honey Bear wood stove and have been burning since October. Currently we get about 3 hour burn times ( I think burn time means time between getting a good fire going to having enough to start another cycle, right?) and it sucks, I mean...the thing gives off tons of heat, but we load it all the time. Therefore, I'm starting to think about next year. I want something that will give longer burn times, EPA approved, for under 1500 sq feet and is available in Canada, Ontario to be specific, and that is under $1500....is this do-able?

Also, is there really a BIG difference in firewood consumption from non epa to epa? Anyone care to share their experiences?

Thanks all :D

 

[burntime]

You will burn about half the wood you burn now. There is less air out of the home so the outer extreme ends of the home will be warmer and since less air is going up the chimney it will be less dry. I converted and I can say that I should have done it a few years earlier. If you are buying wood it will make the decision easier. I scrounge mine so I did not see the difference until I had to haul only half the wood in.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It's very do-able for $1500CDN.

Matt

 

[johnn]

It Won`t suck any more, probably a lot less! My non-epa, no bricks, no baffle, 4.0 ft. box can eat! About 4 hrs. between feedings! I cant wai!!

 

[DAKSY]

Take a look at the Regency Free Standing models..
F1100...
F2400...
Right in your price range &
will heat the area you want...
Made in Canada, Eh...

 

[savageactor7]

Yamaha I think you'll like an EPA stove just don't believe the hype about an 8 or 10 burn. It's heat that keeps you warm not coals ...although they're important too. My recommendation is that if you're heating 1500sq ft get the stove that's good for 3k feet. btw, I'm talking about the non-cat stoves....my 2cents.

 

[TKeller]

I had a pre epa insert for 15 years and a lopi freedom one season. I keep changing my ideas about the pros and cons of each. But my latest ideas are that :
older stove - used more wood(but not significantly), created more creosote, harder to start a fire and keep a hot fire going(less draft), hard to control fire at times. Really throws out the heat and heats house much quicker than new stove. Burntimes around three hours same as new stove. Fan less noisy than new stove. Glass doors sooted bad and trouble seeing fire

newer epa stove - used less wood(but not significantly), created less creosote, easier to start fire and keep fire going(more draft), hard to control fire at times.. Does not put out as much heat and takes much longer to get house up to temperature. Burntimes around three hours same as old stove. Fan more noisy than old stove. Glass doors usually clear excellent for viewing.

Summary there are some advantages of each.

 

[begreen]

Tony, do you remember what the old insert was? I'm curious about the installation. Is this an exterior chimney? Is there a block-off plate installed?

 

[karri0n]

YG,

I can't make a recommendation on model, but you will be *very* satisfied with an EPA stove. You will use far less wood while producing equal or more heat, crystal clear viewing at all times, and usually easier operation.

Tony,

I agree with BG in that if it's not using signifigantly less wood, and you are only getting 3 hour burn times, there's a problem with the installation, and it sounds like WAY too much draft. How long is your chimney/pipe run?

 

[TKeller]

My old insert was a country flame and a slammer with a 12 inch flue. The new insert has a 6 inch insulated liner but no block off plate. It is a interior chimney and yes I feel the chimney and it gets really warm. I think a block off plate would help to put out more heat into room during parts of the burn cycle. The installers said they never have installed block off plate unless zero clearance fireplace and have been in business I am guessing at least 50 years. Some of my short burn time is I have a vaulted ceiling and the heat comes out and goes straight up and to keep the lower level decent sometimes I have to run it pretty hard. Again, with or without a block off plate the old stove did put out much more heat. The hot air could move the blades on the ceiling fan whereas the new stove never has. I still love the new stove but wise I had a block off plate. It is capped at top of chimney. Tony

 

[begreen]

It does sound like strong draft is causing excess wood consumption and less stove control. How tall is the stack? If you could temporarily partially block the flue at the cap, it would confirm or disprove this theory.

Do you run the ceiling fan when the woodstove is going? I'd consider that almost essential with a catherdral ceiling. I prefer to have it blowing upward (reversed) in the winter, but others don't. But somehow the stratified heat trapped at the ceiling needs to be distributed.

 

[BotetourtSteve]

After 2 seasons with an EPA (Jotul F600) following 30 couple years of experience with non-EPA, and as a full-time (October-March) 24-7 burner, my 2 cents: slight decrease in wood consumption (maybe up to 20% less), significant increase in heat output (probably combination of more efficient/hotter burn plus blower), more difficult (but not impossible) to burn wood with any moisture which invariably I will have at some point(s) during the winter, a lot less smoke out of the chimney, less creosote, more attractive (glass front-visible fire) stove.

Would I drop $2500 and do it all over again? Probably - I figure the propane savings alone will make it pay for itself in 3-4 years, plus it had created a centerpiece for an otherwise drab basement, which come to think of it may cost MORE money in the long run as the little woman wants to redo the basement now that we spend more time down there watching the fire...hmmm, maybe I should rethink things... hh:

 

[daleeper]

After 2 seasons with an EPA (Jotul F600) following 30 couple years of experience with non-EPA, and as a full-time (October-March) 24-7 burner, my 2 cents: slight decrease in wood consumption (maybe up to 20% less), significant increase in heat output (probably combination of more efficient/hotter burn plus blower)

Steve, was the significant increase in heat output needed, or something that you have no control over?

I am assuming that you would see more of a decrease in wood consumption if you turned that Jotul down to the same heat output your pre-epa stove put out, would that be correct, or can you not burn your F600 any lower than you are already running it?

 

[begreen]

Truth be told, after switch to the big Alderlea, this is going to be a record year for our wood consumption. Is it the stove, yes partially. It was drafting too hard, now that is more under control. But it's also the wood, there was pine mixed in. It's also us, we are burning truly 24/7, before it was more like 18/5 to 18/7. And it's the dang winter. Mid-March and the daffodils are blooming and we've had snow several days. Night temps around 30. Oh, and we're warmer too. So yes our consumption is actually slightly up this year and with good reason. Next winter we'll be burning a lot of hardwood. I'm hoping to turn these numbers around.

 

[madrone]

Burntimes around three hours same as old stove.

Seems very wrong. What wood, and how full do you fill the stove? I'd echo the draft concern as well.

 

[Highbeam]

A Lopi freedom is a 3+ CF stove. I had the bay model as an insert and it would easily go overnight. I saw "vaulted ceiling" and upstairs in the same sentence as hot flue so I'll assume that the chimney is tall and is sucking the heat right out of your Lopi. You can't turn down an EPA stove like you could an old fisher or slammer. The air will rush through the stove at full throttle nomatter what you do with the primary air control lever since the secondary air supply is not adjustable.

 

[karri0n]

A Lopi freedom is a 3+ CF stove. I had the bay model as an insert and it would easily go overnight. I saw "vaulted ceiling" and upstairs in the same sentence as hot flue so I'll assume that the chimney is tall and is sucking the heat right out of your Lopi. You can't turn down an EPA stove like you could an old fisher or slammer. The air will rush through the stove at full throttle nomatter what you do with the primary air control lever since the secondary air supply is not adjustable.

The quick and easy solution is generally two steps:

1. Install a blockoff plate, followed by

2. Install a flue pipe damper

 

[rickw]

I think that a Woodstock Fireview would heat 1500 sf just fine, and use 1/2 the wood doing it. Very happy with mine, load it 2 - 3times a day max, just a great stove. Will they ship to Canada? - call them and find out.They are on sale for a little over $2000 US.

 

[lexybird]

The quick and easy solution is generally two steps:

1. Install a blockoff plate, followed by

2. Install a flue pipe damper

thats what i was thinking too

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Hey all,

Well it's getting slow here on the hearth forums, so figure I'll start posting my questions away.

First year burner here, bought a 1980 Fisher Honey Bear wood stove and have been burning since October. Currently we get about 3 hour burn times ( I think burn time means time between getting a good fire going to having enough to start another cycle, right?) and it sucks, I mean...the thing gives off tons of heat, but we load it all the time. Therefore, I'm starting to think about next year. I want something that will give longer burn times, EPA approved, for under 1500 sq feet and is available in Canada, Ontario to be specific, and that is under $1500....is this do-able?

Also, is there really a BIG difference in firewood consumption from non epa to epa? Anyone care to share their experiences?

Thanks all :D

STOP!

3 hour burn times? Even with a pre-EPA stove like a Fisher you should be getting at least double that. Your Fisher has an air leak and it's probably traceable to a faulty or non-existent door gasket.

 

[Yamaha_gurl]

STOP!

3 hour burn times? Even with a pre-EPA stove like a Fisher you should be getting at least double that. Your Fisher has an air leak and it's probably traceable to a faulty or non-existent door gasket.

I believe Penn (member on here) has about 4 hour burn times with his bigger fisher. I replaced the door gaskets and checked for cracks before I painted it.

 

[snowtime]

My advice is remember your in Canada. The manufacturers recommendation can be taken as a very low starting point. If you want to burn 24/7 then get a 3cuft fire box. If it is to much heat in the shoulder season just do not put much wood in it. Small fires low heat. The argument that that causes more creosote is true but much less so with an EPA stove. With a good installation [I'm thinking insulated chimney with block off plate or class A all inside home] you should be able to go with 1 good cleaning a year. I just upgraded to a T6 this last year and its a dream. I had the chimney apart to check creosote and will not need to clean it until end of season and I am a pine burner.
Do lots of research as not all EPA stoves are equal.

 

[mainstation]

I would recommend the Regency any day of the week. My inlaws though have a very nice freestanding Pacific Energy and they love it.
Upgrade to a new EPA wood stove, use the Gov't tax credit, save yourself some wood and "roll" with the flames. Get the blower accessory as well.

 

[syd3006]

I bought a "Century Hearth" that was rated for 1500 square ft. last winter at Canadian Tire. I paid $685.00 on sale for the stove. After buying all the hardware for the install as well as the material to build the hearth I had spent about $1500.00 I burned Poplar, Birch and Ash that I cut and split last summer. It has been a fairly cold winter up here and I have burned less than 3 cords so far. My burn times are about 4 hours on a full load in the really cold weather but that is down to coals. Not sure where you are but around here we have a "Home Hardware" and "Canadian Tire" that sell wood-stoves the size that you are looking for for under $1000.00.

 

[pen]

STOP!

3 hour burn times? Even with a pre-EPA stove like a Fisher you should be getting at least double that. Your Fisher has an air leak and it's probably traceable to a faulty or non-existent door gasket.

I believe Penn (member on here) has about 4 hour burn times with his bigger fisher. I replaced the door gaskets and checked for cracks before I painted it.

I have no problem going 8 hours, 10 if I really push it and load to the max. My stove does not have a door gasket and never did. Getting these burn times is not throttling down the stove either. Getting this with Beech or Maple will boil water in my steamer at a full rolling boil on a trivet and keep chimney temps in the 350 to 400 range for the first few hours.

It does sound the like too much draft, too little wood, too small a splits, soft wood instead of hardwood, or some combination of the above.

pen