Non-flush insert comparisons

[LEW22]

I live in the foothills of the Oregon Coast Range, get 6-8" snow most years, and get slammed by freezing east winds coming out of the Columbia Gorge. My propane heat has gone out three times in the last four winters, so I need a back-up. Several years ago I tried a flush insert in my relatively large fireplace (40w x 33h opening) but it was mostly worthless for that and I removed it. So, right now the fireplace is open, providing little heat even with a top and sides blowers (open 2'x2' flue!). Last year the heat was out because the propane connector froze; no power problem, but with the fireplace blowers and two electric heaters, the room was barely 50 degrees. Usually I lose heat, though, because the power lines are down, so no blower or electric heater options. I have glass doors on the fireplace now to keep the room heat from flying up the flue, but that's just an interim solution.

I have a ~1000 sq ft great room (avg ceiling height 15'), and think a large (2.4-3.0 cu ft) non-flush insert would work for me. Very confusing on the different attributes, though. With the help of previous forum postings and my contractor, I've narrowed it down to three: Montlake 300, Quasi-fire 5100, and Hearthstone Clydesdale. Because of my room layout, I need an insert with the door handle on the right, and these three meet that requirement.

Based on my primary objective -- continuous heat at some level for at least a couple of days when my furnace is down -- I think the soapstone-lined Clydesdale might be my best choice, although I've been reading in this forum about the cat. conv. issues and don't get a warm and fuzzy from that. My second objective -- a nice fire in the evening -- leans me to the Quasi-fire with it's side windows. The Montlake is on the list because it's most readily available from my contractor, I like the look of it best and the mantel is the deepest (it may work for hot water or soup if needed). A lesser objective is lowering my propane usage, although it's quite low now as it is, and I think any of these would work for that.

Any help to narrow this down for me, please? I've been feeling there must be something that I'm missing that will at least knock one of these out of contention based on my objectives. Thanks.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Have you thought about a freestanding stove in there? You’re likely to get more natural air movement and heat out of a freestanding stove.

 

[LEW22]

Yes. That was my initial plan. But, I don't have room for a free-standing stove in front of the fireplace, so I'd first need to convert my fireplace to an alcove for the stove to sit in (code says it needs to be 59"w x 60"h). $25K, mostly in masonry. Can't do it.

 

[begreen]

I'm missing something. If this is a masonry fireplace, then why can't a non-flush insert be put in with a 6" stainless liner? That should run around $5-10k depending on the chimney height and insert choice. For an inexpensive insert, look at the Drolet Escape 1800, or Osburn 2000 insert. The Pacific Energy Summit is a step up.

 

[LEW22]

Thanks for the response. You're not missing anything, begreen. A non-flush insert is exactly what I'm looking for, and you're right, total cost will be $5-8K, per my contractor. $25K was the cost if I had to create an alcove for a free-standing wood stove.

I hadn't heard of the three inserts you named here. Just looking them up now, however, the Escape 1800 and Osborne 2000 are both smaller than the three I listed previously (Montlake 300, Quasi-fire 5100i, Clydesdale), and both the Escape 1800 & PE Summit have a left-opening door, with no right side option. I need the door to open from the right because of the room layout. I know most "great" rooms (2-story peaked ceilings) have the fireplace in the middle but for some reason mine was built with it to the left; not very convenient but there you are.

 

[Solarguy3500]

Thanks for the response. You're not missing anything, begreen. A non-flush insert is exactly what I'm looking for, and you're right, total cost will be $5-8K, per my contractor. $25K was the cost if I had to create an alcove for a free-standing wood stove.

I hadn't heard of the three inserts you named here. Just looking them up now, however, the Escape 1800 and Osborne 2000 are both smaller than the three I listed previously (Montlake 300, Quasi-fire 5100i, Clydesdale), and both the Escape 1800 & PE Summit have a left-opening door, with no right side option. I need the door to open from the right because of the room layout. I know most "great" rooms (2-story peaked ceilings) have the fireplace in the middle but for some reason mine was built with it to the left; not very convenient but there you are.

The Osburn 3500 has the door handle on the right, hinges on the left. It is a non flush insert with a 3 cu ft firebox. Have you looked at that one yet?

I have it, and I actually installed it without the faceplate so I could get more heat into the room. If you don't mind the look of an insert without the faceplate, that could be an option for you too.

 

[EbS-P]

If you fireplace is deep enough you can put a free standing stove inside the fireplace see my avatar. 33” height is enough with short legs for the jotul F55 would be a good choice. You can run inserts without the surround. Are you wanting cat or non cat inserts?

 

[LEW22]

The Osburn 3500 has the door handle on the right, hinges on the left. It is a non flush insert with a 3 cu ft firebox. Have you looked at that one yet?

I have it, and I actually installed it without the faceplate so I could get more heat into the room. If you don't mind the look of an insert without the faceplate, that could be an option for you too.

Thanks for that input. I hadn't considered the Osburn. How big a room are you heating with it? It doesn't looks so bad without the face plate, mainly just a big box that you probably barely see inside the fireplace. I like how big the firebox is.

 

[Solarguy3500]

My house is a little under 3,000 sq ft and it heats most of the space nicely. If my kids would remember to leave their bedroom doors open it would heat them even better.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I imagine if they were inconvenienced too much they’d open their doors, lol.

 

[webby3650]

I haven’t been impressed by the Clydesdale. They are big and hard to fit. There’s already a service bulletin, the bypass retainers seize up once they get hot and the damper jams. To make the repair the insert has to be pulled out of the fireplace! Same to service the linkage on the side of the unit.
On the first one we installed, we reversed the door for the customer. The threads came out with the bolts, and promptly stripped out of the other side. Had to re-tap and go buy larger screws. They have really had a hard time with these new units.

 

[paredown]

The Osburn 3500 has the door handle on the right, hinges on the left. It is a non flush insert with a 3 cu ft firebox. Have you looked at that one yet?

I have it, and I actually installed it without the faceplate so I could get more heat into the room. If you don't mind the look of an insert without the faceplate, that could be an option for you too.

This is (possibly) where we might end up. We currently have a freestanding large stove into a large stone fireplace; when it was being repaired we were struck by the more open feeling when it wasn't there. I thought it was going to be this year but my lovely wife got shafted at work (and laid off before Christmas) so maybe next year.

From studying (although I am not an expert like some on the forum), the Drolet does give you some adjustabliity in/out so it may be easier to fit.

And for aesthetics, a few on the forum have done installs with no faceplate, and then used a trim piece around the liner connection to make it look a little tidier.

 

[Caw]

My insert with no faceplate. Haven't covered the liner just kind of got used to it but it's an easy job if you wanted to make it black. Grab some 8" pipe and wrap it around.

 

[LEW22]

First, Webby 3650, yes, I have eliminated the Clydesdale from my list. I've decided catalytic isn't for me. And, there are enough good non-cat inserts and stoves to choose from.

Caw, that Osburn 1600 looks nice just as it is in your fireplace. But, what is the flooring in front that allows you to have so narrow brick hearth? One of the things I keep running into is a 16" hearth requirement in front of the projected part of the stove or insert. My hearth now is 18", but some of these units require I extend it to 23" or 26" to accommodate the projection.

Additionally, I realized I actually have at 38" potential vertical opening (not 33" as I thought), since there was at one time fire brick added on top of the base of the original fireplace. Some of the taller options that I was discounting may actually work, and I keep running into more choices, like Buck Stove 81. I realize I got bad info regarding "alcoves" when I started this investigation, and I don't need a 60" vertical opening. That may have just been specific to one particular stove.

All of you, I really appreciate this conversation. I was feeling very limited in my choices, but you've opened several opportunities for me to check out. The Quadra-Fire 5100i is still my first choice (if I could find one), but since it's been discontinued I realize I may need to move past it. This forum has been very helpful.

 

[Caw]

Caw, that Osburn 1600 looks nice just as it is in your fireplace. But, what is the flooring in front that allows you to have so narrow brick hearth? One of the things I keep running into is a 16" hearth requirement in front of the projected part of the stove or insert. My hearth now is 18", but some of these units require I extend it to 23" or 26" to accommodate the projection.

Thank you! I like the look a lot better than the old face plate look. I'll try and dig up a picture so you can see for yourself.

The black piece in front of my hearth is an Ember King powdered steel hearth extender which on its own is ember protection only or R=0 insulation. My stove requires 16" of R=1 floor protection from the door so to get around that I added a layer of Micore 160 underneath the Ember King. Micore has R=1 insulation value so I basically just made my own little hearth combining the two things. I'll take a photo at a different angle so you can see. I tried painting the Micore black to blend it in but the paint always wears off so I said screw it eventually. With just the Ember King the floor would get to 150 degrees which was too high. Since adding the Micore it only gets up to about 90 which is perfectly acceptable.

Micore/Ember King hearth extension. (Excuse the mess it's due for a vacuum this weekend):

Original look with the face plate and old pine floors. I think it's kind of fake looking and just prefer the beauty of the open brick. I also get more heat with it open so it's a win win. I actually really liked the pine floors but they were too soft and the kids/Gordon kept destroying the finish so we replaced it with engineered hardwood.

 

[LEW22]

Just an update on my search, in case anyone is interested. Realizing I really can just put a stove inside my fireplace without a $25,000 masonry rework bill, I started looking at stoves. I narrowed my choice to the Buck Stove (81 or 91) and Vermont Castings Encore. I did say I didn't want a catalytic converter, but in the VC it looks like you can bypass it. I'm not sure if you can do that with the Buck Stove but it has other reasons it's a top choice for me (firebox size, BTU, side windows, optional as an insert).

I'll be going over a plan with my mason this afternoon, and can hopefully have something installed before any significant weather hits.

Thanks for all your inputs over this past week.

 

[begreen]

The Buck 81 will be much better behaved. The Encore without a cat can be a difficult and moody stove to run. The Buck 91 is catalytic.

 

[LEW22]

Thanks, Begreen. That makes my decision a done!