North Idaho Energy Logs in BlazeKing

[Highbeam]

Every so often I need to burn my stove with as little smoke as possible.

I usually burn softwoods (doug fir, and red alder) in my princess during our long burn season which is about 9 months. The stove and cat are just starting their third season.

On this hearth I previously had a noncat hearthstone that consumed almost 30 cords before I switched to the BK. I tried some pressed wood products that puffed up and some that didn't with the non-cat and wood was better.

The BK is thermostatic and able to regulate the burn rate much better than a non-cat and in an effort to reduce smoke I chose to try burning the ultra dry and clean North idaho energy logs. NIELs. I bought 20 of them for 30$ but the loader said the ends looked scuffed on some so he gave me 30 of them. They are 8# each. Look like a huge pellet. Totally round.

Cold stove with 1/2" of ash on the bottom. I loaded 6 of the logs which is 48# of wood and just barely exceeds a full load of firewood in weight. Yes, I've weighed a load of firewood. Three on the bottom E/W, two above in a V N/S, and then the last one on top E/W. They just barely fit under the firebox top. Lit the whole mess with a chunk of firestarter and a lot of fine kindling. My loose loading was intended to speed up the ignition process and burn smoke free ASAP.

These things are hard to start. After an hour the stove temp and cat temp are as shown. Everything is very slow to warm up but then, almost all of the sudden, things take off and the gasses burst into secondary flamage in the firebox. I reduced the thermostat setting about 30 minutes before bed to a nice low setting and the cat was the only thing glowing and boy was it glowing. Nice and hot. Stove temp near 600.

These things smoke. They smoked a lot during warm up and they smoked continuously during the burn and 12 hours later this morning the stack was still smoking despite a glowing cat at 75% of max temp.

The cat does love the smoke from these things and the stove was running great at 400 stove top, 400 flue temp, and 75% cat temp 12 hours into the burn. At this point the logs had only slightly shrunk.

So the whole point is that I don't want smoke and these things smoke more than cordwood so for that purpose they fail. I'll update the thread with burn time information after the 24 burn that I expect.

 

[spirilis]

Good experiment. It has been my experience that these super-dry products can offgas quite fast when charred, unless packed tightly together - The next experiment I would try is a small kindling+thin split starter fire, to build a bed of coals, let the stove cool down a bit, then reload with the NIELs very tightly packed laid parallel so the exposed surface area is limited ... and see if those offgas & smoke at a slower rate. Similar to the concept of packing rectangular bricks tightly together.

In my own stove (Jotul 8 from 1984), the big 8lb blocks from TSC or my previous supplier were just not suitable for a starter fire for similar reasons - they would take WAY too long to get the stovetop hot; I would use smaller 2lb biobricks in a teepee to get the stove hot, then after they've burned down with <250F stovetop temps, use the remaining "coals" to ignite the big blocks.

 

[begreen]

Interesting. I would have tried just 3 logs with our current mild temps if for nothing else, to produce less smoke. NIELs are very dense and harder to start. This is similar to trying to start a fire with locust splits. When you buy them in a package they include a firestarter. SuperCedars also work very well. When I tested them in the Castine after full ignition there was no smoke. I haven't tested them in the Alderlea yet but now I'm curious. I'm beginning to think that perhaps secondary combustion stoves may be more efficient in this regard. Will probably have to start with HomeFire's Prest-Logs as they are easily available locally. I need to go into Seattle to get the NIELs.

 

[Highbeam]

The constant smoke after 12 hours of burning wasn't heavy and dark but moderate, constant, and white. Easily would have failed the 20% opacity requirement. During ignition it was heavier and white. The logs are bone dry, popcorn fart dry. Cat was very active and since it is relatively new I have to believe it is doing what it can.

I expected the emissions to be very clear once settled in. Do any other cat stove folks haev experience with different stack methods or numbers of logs.

 

[Treacherous]

It must be somehow related to how a cat burns them. I think I tried to burn 4 one time but usually only 3 max or mixed with my fir. Mine burn really clean in my Endeavor.

 

[spirilis]

Probably offgassed so fast (due to high exposed surface area due to the stacking technique used) it exceeded the cat's capacity to burn. In a noncat stove that much smoke would probably open the Gates of Hell with temporal anomalies and super high flue temps.

 

[Highbeam]

I have 24 more to test with. My next test will be with them stacked like hot dogs. I can tolerate a smokey ignition period but 24 hours of smoke isn't cool. Our overnight temps were in the high 30s outside.

Oh and I won't load any more than three into the non-cat NC30 if I decide to try them there. I feel like I had full control over the stove temp with 6 in the cat stove. The cat wasn't running at 100% during the smokey cruise so how can this be a case of too much gas for the cat to eat?

 

[spirilis]

Hmm, that is a good question. What do you measure for cat utilization (temps after the cat?)
Did the firebox look ridiculously smoky inside? (although, I'm guessing low & slow cat burns always look that way right?)

 

[begreen]

Sounds like a good question for Chris at BK.

 

[Highbeam]

Hmm, that is a good question. What do you measure for cat utilization (temps after the cat?)
Did the firebox look ridiculously smoky inside? (although, I'm guessing low & slow cat burns always look that way right?)

I only have the OEM cat meter and there are no numbers. Cat temps as indicated on the dial during the smokey long term cruise were at the 2/3 of the way to the top of the active range. Right near that third tick which is quite hot.

The firebox did not look smoky inside at all. Only with a flashlight at an angle could I see the smoke rolling. Also typical of a wood burn.

I'm not an expert but I did expect super dry fuel in a cruising normal temp stove with glowing hot cat temps to generate low/no smoke from the stack.

 

[spirilis]

I only have the OEM cat meter and there are no numbers. Cat temps as indicated on the dial during the smokey long term cruise were at the 2/3 of the way to the top of the active range. Right near that third tick which is quite hot.

The firebox did not look smoky inside at all. Only with a flashlight at an angle could I see the smoke rolling. Also typical of a wood burn.

I'm not an expert but I did expect super dry fuel in a cruising normal temp stove with glowing hot cat temps to generate low/no smoke from the stack.

I agree, something's not right here.

Do the BK's get unmetered air to the catalyst or does its air intake vary with the thermostatic damper? Almost wondering if maybe the stove's "tuned" such that it won't receive enough secondary air to match the amount of smoke from these, but then again it's not like the firebox was flooded with smoke.
No way it could have leaked past the cat? Has other conventional split firewood you've burned recently run perfectly clean?

 

[jeff_t]

FWIW, I saw blue smoke until dark, with 126 lbs of eco bricks. It was over come morning. And yes, they were more difficult to get burning hot than cordwood.

Interesting to play with, but I wouldn't want to depend on them.

Do the BK's get unmetered air to the catalyst or does its air intake vary with the thermostatic damper?

There's a hole, 3/8-1/2" diameter, that doesn't get closed off with the thermostat. Other than that, there is no dedicated air supply to the cat.

I see some smoke with a fresh load of cordwood, sometimes. A lot of different factors involved, I think. Fuel moisture content, draft, ambient air temp, thermostat setting, the extent to which the load was charred and the smoke produced, I think these factors all play a role.

 

[Highbeam]

I just checked the stove and after 23 hours the cat is about 1/3 of the way into the active range, STT is at 250 and there is just about the volume of 1 log left in the firebox. No smoke from the stack.

There is no secondary or cat air supply on a BK, primary air only which as Jeff pointed out can't be totally closed off.

The glass was clean at the start but after 23 hours is browned over in the typical BK fashion of corners first.

On cordwood, after warmup, I will see visible blue smoke about 50% of the time but it is very light and would pass the 20% opacity test. The NEILs made a steady stream of white.

Gotta give credit to the NEILs for lasting 24 hours with only those 6 logs. Functionally, I could easily heat the house with the NEILs. If I doubled the amount of Neils to 12 I am not so sure I wouldn't get a very very long burn time.

 

[spirilis]

Fancy. Well if the BK cat relies on excess ballast primary air for its cat, I would expect opening the air more but with tighter packing of the logs (so the extra air doesn't force a lot of extra smoke production) may do the trick. We'll have to see soon with the next experiment

 

[Poindexter]

article in my local paper this week says the local bio-logs - that do puff up a lot- can reduce emissions when one or two biologs are added into a load of otehr wise ordinary cord wood.

Slow server even for locals, linky: http://www.newsminer.com/news/local...cle_207910fa-6fc9-11e4-8fcb-43d3d413450d.html

 

[spirilis]

Did you ever try a second experiment with the NIELs stacked tightly together?

 

[NinjaTech]

I get white steam from any of the bio log products too, just a byproduct of them burning clean. Just a maybe one or two foot long white steam plume that soon dispersal. They don't sell the NIEL logs around here unfortunately so I have been unable to test them. Wish they did though, I keep hearing good things. What we do have are the smaller two LB brick type. Packing them closer together does seem to help make them a little more controllable. I would assume the same would go for the NIELs, just have no way to test with those.

 

[spirilis]

Yeah I'm thinking these days I would love to go with a BK to replace my Jotul given the size of my house plus the type of fuel I use, but it would be unfortunate if the BK just doesn't work right with them. I suspect it's a technicality of how you stack it, combined with the BK's thermostatic damper ... I read in another thread (think it was Highbeam) that the BK does not have dedicated secondary air, so it relies on the primary air which is thermostatically controlled. I would suspect with such a system, a fuel that offgasses too fast would result in a dirty burn because of the feedback mechanism.

(High pyrolysis offgassing + any reasonable amount of oxygen = high temps = BK thermostatic damper closes off the air supply to control, but this results in stunted secondary combustion because the catalyst isn't seeing enough oxygen to burn all the smoke. Reduce the rate of offgassing by stacking the logs close together/parallel and I bet that exhaust would clean up nicely with the same thermostatic damper setting.)

 

[begreen]

Could be possible that the exhaust HB was seeing was water vapor if it was pure white and dissipated fairly quickly.

 

[spirilis]

Could be possible that the exhaust HB was seeing was water vapor if it was pure white and dissipated fairly quickly.

Possible, but if he's not seeing that with regular cordwood I doubt that would be it.

 

[Highbeam]

Possible, but if he's not seeing that with regular cordwood I doubt that would be it.

The white smoke from the NIELS did not dissipate, it was not steam. A very long trail of smoke. It was also white from inside the cap where steam from the BK is clear for about a foot and then white and then dissipates within another 10 feet or so.

I just wrapped up test #2. I'll make a post once I get the pics up.

 

[Highbeam]

Okay so I've got like 20 of these NIELs left over and I have determined that they are NOT a low emissions or smokeless fuel. They are not to be used when, for some reason, I wish to burn in stealth mode. But I've got 20 of them left. I burned a few in the non-cat and they burn up pretty quickly. Smoke at startup but then clean burn.

So we are in a cold snap, overnight temps in the teens for each of the last few nights. Until this morning it was illegal to burn fireplaces and non-epa stoves but the BK is fine. So I pulled the coals to the front center and loaded a warm stove with 9 of these biologs. That's 72# and almost double the weight of cordwood that I can put in the firebox. Photo below.

They started up much easier with coals in a warm stove than with kindling when in a cold stove. Smoking of course. The cat was active and after a while was rising so I flopped the bypass and set the stat to about 2.25. Smoke continued. The front of the logs burned for a couple of hours before stove temps started really climbing. Still smoking, glowing cat. White and heavy. At about 550 degrees I chopped the stat to my normal setting of about 1.75 but the secondary flames in the firebox were really rolling hard. Temps seemed to keep climbing so after about 30 minutes I slammed the stat shut to setting 1.5 and the stove held 600 for several more hours, still smoking of course, until the flame went out. Cat kept glowing really bright but smoking white. A few horus later I woke up after midnight to check on it and temps had fallen to 550. That morning, temps around 400 and I bumped the stat back up to the 1.75 normal setting. Light smoke, still wouldn't pass the legal smoke limit.

I experienced about as much of a runaway BK as I believe is possible. No more 9 log loads.

Later that day at 6 pm there was still about 1/3 of the logs left but the stove was not making enough heat, no smoke. I pulled the chunks into a pile and set the stat at 3 but never could get the stove very hot. I believe that the logs had already given up their energy. So after about 24 hours I reloaded with real wood and had a nice, steady, predictable burn into the night. Very light intermittent blue smoke, cat glowing.

This experiment further established to me that biologs are not a solution for smoke free burning. In fact, I dispute the claims of reduced emissions. The only time I would use them is if I had no source of dry firewood and at that time I would limit the load to 6.

I was hoping that if 6 logs got me 24 hours that 9 logs would get me 36. No. They don't work like that. Not unless you don't mind a relatively cold (and smokey) stove for the bulk of the burn.

I'll probably be wasting the remaining 11 biologs in the non-cat just to use them up.

 

[NinjaTech]

Its strange that your getting such different results with the compressed wood logs. I use the 2lb bricks with no issues, I'm pretty sure I remember BKVP uses the NIELs in his BK. I assume the 2lb bricks, and the NIEL logs are fairly similar in how they are made. Just different sizes.

 

[Highbeam]

Its strange that your getting such different results with the compressed wood logs. I use the 2lb bricks with no issues, I'm pretty sure I remember BKVP uses the NIELs in his BK. I assume the 2lb bricks, and the NIEL logs are fairly similar in how they are made. Just different sizes.

I'm not so sure that I am getting different results, just noticing the smoke more than others seem to. I am sensitive to the smoke since that was the only reason I tried these biologs and I expect all biologs to act the same.

The NIELs do burn and would work 6 at a time for a 24 hour cycle. That's not a bad deal. They are not clean burning though. Yeah yeah, every stove is different but that's why I made this thread. To show how my stove and setup burns them. BKVP burns a king and probably has a very tall chimney. Your insert is also different.

Wood just burns cleaner and more steadily.

 

[PWash]

I'll echo the thoughts of others that 9 or even 6 logs is probably too many logs for any stove. the NIELs website says not to load more than 2 at a time (below). I have a smaller cw2900 2.4 cuft insert and loading just two of these logs heats up the fire and allows me to completely shut the primary air. When burning my normal alder/cedar, i only shut down to maybe 90%, never 100%. If you still have NIELs left, try using just 2 of them at the bottom of your load of other firewood, they light off pretty quickly with residual hot coals and help to heat up the other wood you stack above so that it also burns cleanly. When doing a cold start, I've used them effectively after chopping them into smaller discs: they light off much quicker and appear to put out some good heat to the surrounding wood.
Where I live in WA, it's illegal to exceed 20% smoke density for any continuous time over 7 minutes, pretty tough requirement for cold starts, but these logs seem to work well for me.

Burning North Idaho Energy Logs:



Energy Logs burn hotter and longer than firewood and other manufactured logs. It takes a very little number of energy logs to provide you with the warmth of wood heat. We suggest burning NO MORE THAN TWO (2) ENERGY LOGS AT A TIME, unless starting with a cold firebox as suggested in the (broken link removed to http://www.northidahoenergylogs.com/lighting.php)(broken link removed to http://www.northidahoenergylogs.com/lighting.php). DO NOT OVERFILL YOUR STOVE OR FIREPLACE.


(broken link removed to http://www.northidahoenergylogs.com/energylogs.php)