northstar woodburner problems

[wobbles]

Hello
We purchased a heat and glo northstar fireplace back in November. Every time we light this fireplace water leaks from the joints in the chimney. Enough water that a towel and bucket is necessary. The installers have tried a number of remedies including putting a collar on the top of the chimney to stop snow from getting in the pipe, sealing the box on top of the unit with metal tape, and moving the cold air intake so that it is a shorter run and now comes through the attic. They think that condensation is forming on the inside of the chimney pipe and freezing, and once we light a fire and the pipe warms up that ice melts and creates our problem. Yesterday we lit the fireplace once again and again water came pouring into our house. The installers don't have any other ideas on how to fix this and we are getting seriously frustrated. If anyone has any suggestions as to how to fix this problem I would be forever grateful! We are almost at the point of ripping it out and sending it back. Thanks.

 

[jtp10181]

We install these things all the time and I have never heard of this problem. It is going to be below 0F here this weekend so it definatly gets cold.

I assume you have the standard chimney which is the SL300 pipe? Did they properly install the Chimney Air Kit? You would have a 4" hood on the outside, as well as the 6" hood for the fresh air intake.

How tall is the chimney? How much of it is outside? Is the fireplace on an outside wall? Is it insulated behind the wall? Is this a new house or was this a remodel project install?

 

[wobbles]

Hi and thank you for your help
Pretty cold here this morning too - -30 C and again we lit the thing and had to mop up the mess. This is a remodel, the fireplace is on an inside wall, the pipe is SL300, we have 6 to 7 feet of chimney outside, 5 feet inside and about 2 to 3 feet in the attic...as far as properly installing the chimney air kit, I'm not sure, how can I tell? I don't think there is a hood on the cold air intake that goes to the attic (cooling air for the chimney). Originally they had this cold air intake going down through the floor and to outside through the suspended ceiling in the basement, but they moved it because it was 25ft long and now it goes up through the attic and not directly outside. Now I would say it is about 12ft long. There is still another insulated pipe (6 inch) that still runs through the basement, (25 ft long) the fresh air intake for combustion, I think it has a screened termination cap on the end. Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean by the hoods, the chimney has a TR344 cap on it.

 

[jtp10181]

Ok, so the 6" air goes outside and they took the chimney air kit air and re-routed it to the attic. Technically I don't think you end that in the attic, but I don't think that matter for this situation.

Does it seem the ice is forming on the inner pipe or in the outer section? You should be able to tell by the place the water comes down.

 

[wobbles]

I think the Ice is forming on the outer section for the most part although we can hear some dripping and sizzling inside as well. Seems like the water runs down the pipe until it hits the joint where two sections of pipe are attached and then it starts dripping out onto the surface of the unit from there. It takes about ten minutes from start up for it to melt and start leaking and then we get leaking for about 10 minutes and then its good again until next time.

 

[jtp10181]

OK well if its cold outside the air should be dry and cold. You get condensation when warmer humid air hits a cold pipe and then it condensates and freezes if cold enough. The air in the outer wall should only be dry outside air, it can get in through the cap on the roof or the end of the chimney air kit line (in the attic right now). Now, where the chimney air kit mounts on the unit it is basically a box that goes over the air holes in the anchor plate. If this is not sealed with HT silicone then some of the more humid inside air could be getting in there. Make sure they caulked the air kit as it says in the instructions (I would just flat out ask if they caulked the CAK box to the unit.

Now here is another though... if the wood you are burning has a lot of moisture in it yet (not seasoned) this could also be a problem. When you burn the wood it would make a lot of steam and when the fire dies down it could be cooling down and freezing to the chimney walls before it gets out the top. I don't know if this is actually possible, but its just a thought and seems like it could happen.

DO you have a humidifier running? Maybe you just need to turn it down a little. Do you get ice or water on the bottoms of the windows when its really cold outside?

 

[wobbles]

No, we don't have a humidifier, right now humidity is at 49 per cent, we do get some ice on the bottoms of the windows when it is really cold like today...the wood we are burning is well seasoned birch, about 2 1/2 years old. The box on the top of the unit appears to be caulked and they have also sealed it with metal tape. It wasn't caulked originally, but they did it the first time they came to attempt to fix the problem. I can't tell how well it is done without lifting off the tape. It is very cold to the touch. Do you think there could be something defective with the unit?

 

[jtp10181]

Sounds like you just have too much humidity in your house to me. I doubt anything they do to the fireplace will fix it.

Only thing I can think of would be to replace the SL300 pipe with the Simpson DuraPlus, it is allowed and mentioned in the manual in a few places. That pipe has an insulation wrap in it. It has an air chamber as well but it is a stangant air chamber I think, so it wont get quite as cold.

 

[wobbles]

Hi Thanks again for all your help and your ideas... We asked about putting in an insulated pipe and they said its not allowed with this model. I just went through the install manual again and can't find anything about using a different pipe. Maybe its not allowed here in canada. With the humidity levels, we've never had a problem, the ice on the bottoms of the windows just formed in the last two days when it went down to minus 30...and we are installing hardwood in this room and the humidity has to remain between 40 and 55 % (its at 44 right now) - and doesn't that warm moist air have to get in somewhere, if the unit is fully sealed but the room is too humid where would that air be getting in? We are at a total loss as to what to try next but I do appreciate your help.

 

[jtp10181]

Hmmm... Maybe its only the 7100 that can sue the DuraPlus. I am going to review the manual and then come back later.

--

Yeap it seems the NorthStar does not allow the DuraPlus, only the 7100 does.

I'm out of ideas. Have you or the dealer called Heat & Glo? Have your serial number ready and they will input a case into the computer which will get it assigned to the product specialist. If need be they will send a rep down to get it figured out, one way or another they will get it working right.

 

[wobbles]

thanks
I did email heat & Glo on Friday, I expect I will hear back from them this week, if not I will call. I called the dealer again this weekend and they seem to be out of ideas as well. I will let you know if we come up with a solution.

 

[wobbles]

Hi again, just wanted to let you know I had bad luck with the heat & glo people. I got a standard email form letter to contact the dealer. I then got on the phone and managed to talk to a real person, he told me he was the gas person but he would forward on my name and number and have someone call me, nobody did. So we are having the unit removed. I am very unhappy with their service. We may exchange it for a selkirk fireplace, which has an insulated chimney. I am in the process of researching this unit to see if it is any good.

 

[jtp10181]

Has the dealer worked with Heat & Glo at all? If you want me to get a hold of someone at HNG for you, PM me your phone number and I can pass this thread along with it. Would be a shame to tear it out.

 

[wobbles]

Thanks for the offer, we have been doing a lot of research on our own and it looks like the air cooled chimneys are inferior to the solid pack, especially in our climate, so we have decided to go with something with an insulated chimney, although I really liked the look of the northstar and it did a good job of pumping out the heat. Our dealer said they were dealing with heat n glo but they were getting nowhere, and I need to get this done before it gets warm outside so that I know it works properly. If you want to pass this thread on, it might be good for them to know that a customer was unhappy with their service and returned their product. I put another post up today for suggestions on a new fireplace with an insulated chimney, do you know of any that don't leak?

 

[boylespoon]

once you close that unit in you will not get the condisation you are talking about.heres an example just reinstalled a dv fireplace it uses pipe within a pipe.when the room air hits the cold pipe the condisation was dripping down the wall,heres another ,heatilator td36 wood unit same chimney you have homeowner was told to run a furnace duct in the cavity the fireplace was located.major ice buildup and water driping.once the furnace duct was removed it cleared up,my question to you, is this unit closed up or still in the frameing stages

 

[wobbles]

yes, this unit is still in the framing stage, but the ice is forming on the inside of the chimney and the water leaks through the joints when warmed up...and I don't want to close it up unless I know the problem is fixed - one of the installers suggested that if the thing was rocked in the problem would probably go away because the warm moist air wouldn't be able to get in anywhere but 'probably' isn't good enough, I want to know for sure before going any further

 

[Fire Bug]

Hi again, just wanted to let you know I had bad luck with the heat & glo people. I got a standard email form letter to contact the dealer. I then got on the phone and managed to talk to a real person, he told me he was the gas person but he would forward on my name and number and have someone call me, nobody did. So we are having the unit removed. I am very unhappy with their service. We may exchange it for a selkirk fireplace, which has an insulated chimney. I am in the process of researching this unit to see if it is any good.

Hi Wobbles,
Don't feel alienated by the,"Contact The Dealer E-Mails". I have had several problems with an Heat & Glow FB Grand Gas Fireplace Insert and contacted both Heat & Glow and Hearth & Home Technologies Inc.,(Parent Company), and I got the exact same response from their customer service depts.
Read my recent post on blower shroud metal exspansion. This company was noted for fine products at one time, but they have since hit rock bottom especially for customer service and product quality control.
I would never, ever, buy another Hearth & Home product again, nor will I ever recomend one of their products to a prospective consumer.
Many of the dealers in my area feel the same way as I do.
Good Luck,
John

 

[jtp10181]

yes, this unit is still in the framing stage, but the ice is forming on the inside of the chimney and the water leaks through the joints when warmed up...and I don't want to close it up unless I know the problem is fixed - one of the installers suggested that if the thing was rocked in the problem would probably go away because the warm moist air wouldn't be able to get in anywhere but 'probably' isn't good enough, I want to know for sure before going any further

What if you wrapped something like 4mil plastic around it (in areas where combustibles are allows). You could tack up some plywood or something in the areas near the fireplace. Just staple the plastic good and it would isolate that area from the rest of the house.

Come to think of it we have had similar issues in houses under construction and once everything is done it all goes away.

 

[wobbles]

should have done a little more research first, I guess...we are going to try taping up all the joints in the chimney with aluminum tape to see if that stops the moist air from getting in, although if the water just gets rerouted and continues to pour in to the firebox thats no good either, dealer thinks it might help if we put a chase on the roof as well, and has suggested putting an insulated sleeve on the thing although I don't think we can do that as per the manual...having a hard time finding a replacement that has an insulated chimney and looks as good...as far as similar issues with houses under construction, are you sure it goes away or maybe the problem isn't visible anymore? Thats what I'm worried about. RSF has an interesting page about insulated chimneys on their website, it talks about the exact problem we are having...here I will attach -

" Insulated chimneys are far superior in cold climates. Air cooled chimneys circulate air past the flue
continuously so in cold weather the chimney is very cold, which can cause condensation to form when the
fireplace isn’t burning. This condensation can trickle down the system gathering on top of the fireplace. Air
cooled chimneys were never designed for extreme temperatures. But don’t take our word for it. Here is what
one of our competitors, a manufacturer of both systems, warns about air cooled chimneys:
“In areas where winter temperatures are normally below freezing, the air cooled chimney may produce
condensation. This condensation may corrode the top of the fireplace and is not covered under warranty. For
optimum performance of your fireplace, (we) recommend the use of a (packed chimney)...”

 

[jtp10181]

having a hard time finding a replacement that has an insulated chimney and looks as good...

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/Wood_Burning/Wood_Model.asp?f=7100fp)

 

[boylespoon]

i would try to temporarily close that unit off, we sell lots of that aircooled chimney in ontario,since 1990.and have replaced 0 sections, thats 17 years.air cooled works.even in cold climates.we run in to a few issues but its more related to how air tight the houses are now,as far as top of the fireboxes rotting out has not happened to us.in 17 years we have never had to replace a unit because of condisation on top of the unit,thats thousands.