Are there any estimates of how many newer clean burning stoves there are in the U.S. compared to the number of older stoves? Much of my curiosity comes from different discussions on the difficulty of buying wood seasoned to 20%. and wondering who firewood dealers are seeing as their main customers?
Number of older stoves vs EPA in U.S.
- Thread starter Max W
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Pre EPA stoves should be using sub 20% wood as well. In this area from what I see it is a pretty even split between pre and post EPA stuff. Other areas are very different I am sure
I keep an eye on the ads in the Conway NH area which is a pretty active area for firewood purchasers. Not one advertiser mentioned moisture content. They sell "dry" "green" and "seasoned".
Seasoned is an ambiguous term at best without stating the moisture content. It could be cut and drying for a month or two and technically it would be seasoned, just not fully. Some places count in the time that the tree was cut as seasoning time, but it is not really starting to season until stacked and split.
Yeah I totally agree about the smoldering part. Lol.
When you say EPA stove what do you mean? Are you talking about a 2020 EPA stove, or can it be an older one?
My dad has an early cat stove, but I wouldn’t call it efficient at all. Pretty much a smoke dragon.
I have a VC “everburn” Encore that is also not very efficient.
My two examples IMO are no better then smoke dragons, but are early EPA stoves.
When you say EPA stove what do you mean? Are you talking about a 2020 EPA stove, or can it be an older one?
My dad has an early cat stove, but I wouldn’t call it efficient at all. Pretty much a smoke dragon.
I have a VC “everburn” Encore that is also not very efficient.
My two examples IMO are no better then smoke dragons, but are early EPA stoves.
I was talking about any EPA certified stove with my response. Most were pretty good but there certainly were some turds.
Have the standards not changed over the years though? Of what would be considered an EPA stove. Like are the standards for a 2005 EPA stove the same as a 2020?
Yes emissions regulations have been tightened in 3 stages. But if you are talking just 2020 stoves the percentage would be very low at this point
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Seasoning goes with meat, not wood.
More serious, I think the ratio of "pre-EPA" (whatever EPA rules one talks about, 90s, '05, or later) stoves vs "older" will depend a lot on the area and wealth in that area.
Areas with less financial means, and where wood heat has been a persistent major thing since when there only was wood (or coal) heat, will have a different ratio than urbanized areas that may have more to spend on this and are more limited in exhaust (because of regulations, neighborly empathy, or an environmentally conscious mindset).
So a general answer is likely to be too averaged to mean anything.
More serious, I think the ratio of "pre-EPA" (whatever EPA rules one talks about, 90s, '05, or later) stoves vs "older" will depend a lot on the area and wealth in that area.
Areas with less financial means, and where wood heat has been a persistent major thing since when there only was wood (or coal) heat, will have a different ratio than urbanized areas that may have more to spend on this and are more limited in exhaust (because of regulations, neighborly empathy, or an environmentally conscious mindset).
So a general answer is likely to be too averaged to mean anything.
Ok gotcha, thanks for the explanation. I don’t personally know anyone still using a pre EPA stove then.
I know a few people who had old stoves, then upgraded to something EPA hated it went back and will never buy a new stove.
Can’t blame ‘em. Throw a bunch of 30” logs in a massive firebox walk away do it again tomorrow.
Can’t blame ‘em. Throw a bunch of 30” logs in a massive firebox walk away do it again tomorrow.
I have burnt allot of stoves some pre EPA and some newer ones. No way would I ever consider going back to an old one for heating my house.
More heat from less wood to me is a big plus.
I personally don't know of any friends family or customers who have gone back to an old stove after having a good modern stove. A few got frustrated with some of the crappy ones.
My 13 year old add on wood furnace has a large fire box and has been upgraded to a more efficient burn but still burns about the same amount of wood. More of a hot blast than the way i used to burn. Only slight advantage so far is less creosote build up in the pipe right off the stove. A lot of smoke and mirrors surrounding the actual efficiency of the new stoves IMO. I like a consistent controlled burn so I am not getting an 80 degree blast and then need to let the stove coast and go to restart over and over. Mine is dialed in for a steady 65 to 70 degree comfort zone but it takes work to burn wood as a cost saving measure. If I wasn't harvesting my own fuel I wouldn't see any savings in buying wood....fossil fuels are still cheaper than buying processed wood no matter the source.
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Again what experience are you basing your assumptions on about modern stoves? My current stove I load with wood, get it up to temp, close the bypass and set the thermostat. I then walk away for 8 12 or 24 hours depending upon the outside temps. My last stove a regency I reloaded every 8 to 10 hours typically
We all have our stories. i get the btus out of my firewood as needed. I have been heating with wood for 45 years but who cares.
Yes but my " story" is consistent with what most other users of similar stoves are seeing. And years of experience working on many hundreds of different stoves and chimneys. Yours are based upon what again?
45 years of wood burning,,, fuel, air, spark....real simple.... EPA didn't invent anything. What's your magic 4th ingredient?....LOL....I hear a train coming.
Ok 45 years burning what types of stoves?
It is still air fuel and heat. The difference is controlling those things to optimise the combustion process. And then designing the stove to extract that heat better.
Do you not see a difference between a model t and a modern car? They have the same basic principles and components. But are very far from the same.
And again of course the EPA didn't invent anything in relation to stoves. They just set regulations which drove the manufacturers to innovate.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I agree; in cars the amount of government interference - in the form of setting standards of performance, not dictating design - is much larger in cars than in stoves ...
I.e. the example as you meant it (the reverse) is blatantly incorrect
Edit: Or maybe I'm wrong, and you meant it in the correct way.
Regardless, we're all happy that the performance standards have improved the design so we can drive our car/pick up rather than the model T.
Edit 2; I need to figure out how to color text too
So everyone here who has switched from a pre EPA unit to a modern stove and reports more heat from less wood is lying?
Those of us who are seeing long burns while keeping chimneys clean is lying?
Keeping a clean chimney requires a lot of heat going up that chimney. How is it efficient to have all the btus going up the chimney in a hot blast? my old stoves have plenums which pull optimum btus out of a split weather running high or low in a controlled manner as needed. All the new stoves are is smoke and mirrors and promoted here as something new....fuel air spark....nothing more.1800 AD or 2022 AD.....LOL but I suspect if you invest $5000 and more you will convince yourself you have a magical heat source
If you knew anything about modern stoves you would know they can easily run at a lower exhaust temp than older stoves while still keeping the chimney clean. They also typically run at higher stove top temps while doing that.
Again is everyone here who has switched and seen the benefits lying?
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