Nyle Geyser RE problem

[ajamison]

I've seen the Geyser RE mentioned on this forum numerous times, so I am hoping someone can help me troubleshoot my unit. I installed one this summer, connected to a new 80 gallon State electric water heater. It worked for a couple of days and then starting tripping the circuit breaker. It was a 15 amp circuit (I was using a 25' 12 gauge extension cord to reach it which tech support had ok'd beforehand). I thought maybe the combo of a 15 amp circuit and the extension cord was the problem, so I wired a new dedicated 20 amp circuit right next to the unit, but the problem persisted.

Tech support sent me a new relay, but that didn't fix it. I hooked up a kill-a-watt to it and observed it for a cycle. It would run for about 2 hours, then start to shut down. But right at that point the compressor would kick back on, but not circulate water, and it would be drawing 0.33 amps (not the 4-7 it does during normal operation). It would run like this for several hours until the breaker tripped.

I reviewed all my connections and wiring. I plugged a dehumidifier into the same outlet and it ran fine for days. I sent the unit back and they can't find anything wrong with it and have never heard of the unit shutting down a cylce but then the compressor kicking back on until the breaker trips.

Anyone have any ideas? Right now they still have the unit, and I am not sure how proceed.

Thanks.

 

[bdud]

What is the temp of the room when the Geyser is operating?
The blower fan in the Geyser was running and you were getting condensate collecting in the bottom?
How long are you piping runs, tank to Geyser?
How did you connect up the piping?
For 2 days it worked correctly and heated water?

 

[ajamison]

The temp is in the mid/upper 60s.
I was getting condensate during a cylce, but not during the strange activity afterwards when just the fan was running and it drawing the really low amps.
4' piping runs, no elbows.
I connected it the way it was shown in the manual (see pic).
It seemed like it ran properly for 2 days before the breaker first tripped. After that it would run a cycle, heat water, produce condensate, but then act like I described in the first post before tripping the breaker.

Initially my plumber hooked it up (I wasn't around to watch) and had 4 elbows and had reversed the nipple - basically didn't install it correctly and it wasn't really working at all. With the help of the Geyser tech, I re-plumbed it all correctly (as shown in pic).

 

[bdud]

The temp in my basement is ~70F degrees, you don't think the coils are freezing up inside?
I have 4 90 degree bends on my Nyle and it has not been a problem, your plumbing itself looks fine.
I would insulate those pipes to prevent heat loss.

 

[CaptSpiff]

It would run for about 2 hours, then start to shut down. But right at that point the compressor would kick back on, but not circulate water, and it would be drawing 0.33 amps (not the 4-7 it does during normal operation). It would run like this for several hours until the breaker tripped.

The 0.33 amps sounds like normal Fan Motor load.
How can U B sure the "compressor would kick back on, but not circulate water".
The compressor is a high load device and is more likely to draw 5-7 amps running, and 15-20 amps for the 1-2 second starting process. A 20 amp breaker will handle even a 25 amp inrush without tripping because it judges both "current & time".

Since the factory found nothing wrong, I would look at the electrical connection at the Water Heater Storage Tank. Could the thermostat connection at the tank be miss wired introducing a ground when the Tank Thermostat toggles?

 

[ajamison]

I don't think coils should freeze up at room temps in the 60s - should be good down to 50. And I do have the pipes insulated - just not for the pic.

CaptSpiff - You are right, it probably is just the fan kicking back on - not the compressor. I was thinking it had to be something about the way the tank communicates with the unit, but I double checked the wiring before I sent it back. The tech didn't think that was the issue, but since the unit runs fine for them, it seems like it has to be something about either my water heater or the way it was hooked up.

I'm not real knowledgeable about electricity, so forgive me for any ignorance here - but the thermostat connection you are talking about - is that something the wired connection between the Geyser and the tank or something within the tank itself?

 

[CaptSpiff]

.... the thermostat connection you are talking about - is that something the wired connection between the Geyser and the tank or something within the tank itself?

I saw in your picture an electrical cable connecting the Geyser to the Tank. I assume that cable is connected to the Tank thermostat to turn the Geyser On & Off.

What I don't know is if that Tank thermostat contact is supposed to be a "dry contact" (ie no voltage at all, like a simple on/off switch), or if the Tank stat contact is actually sending voltage from the Tank circuit to the Geyser.

If that connection is not correct then your Geyser could be getting hit with 240v from the Tank when the temperature setting of the Tank is reached.

This all assumes you have a standard HW Tank with the upper & lower thermostat, and that it's still wired into a 30 amp CB.

The other possibility (if tank no longer wired to 240) is that that same stat contact could be introducing a ground when contact closes.
We'll need more pictures and a wiring diagram to go further.

 

[ajamison]

The water heater is wired from a 30 amp breaker with 2 wires, there is an upper and lower t-stat.

I've attached 3 pictures. One each of the upper and lower t-stats (wired normally) and then a pic from the Geyser manual of the connection from the Geyser to the water heater (since mine is not hooked up at the moment). When I did hook my Geyser up, I disconnected the red wire, put the black wire from the Geyser with the yellow spade connection in its place, and wire nutted the white wire to the red wire. My red wire being the blue wire in the "connection" picture from the manual.

Does this shed any light on things? Do you need anything else?

 

[ajamison]

And here is the wiring diagram for my water heater.

 

[CaptSpiff]

I've been working and giving 1/2 my wages to the govt, so I haven't done much reading here. A little surprised no one has jumped in. Lots of Nyle users here which are similar to your Geyser.

Re-reading your OP I missed that the unit worked OK for several days. However, if the factory can't find any fault then I stick by my deduction (guess) that the problem is your electrical connection at the Tank thermostat.

Here's why: You said you used a "kill-a-watt" to monitor the Geyser, so that tells me it's powered from 120v. You're still keeping your HW Tank connected to a 240v circuit. You connected a "control wire" from the Geyser to the Tank lower thermostat per the Geyser supplied wiring diagram. But you did not show the Geyser diagram so it is hard to follow how you exactly made the connection (I was not able to follow the photo above).

What I know is that the connection at the tank is critical, and mixing 120v devices with 240v devices makes it even more so.
I'm sticking with my guess that when your tank upper t-stat has heated the upper part of the tank water it shuts off, sending 240v to the lower element to continue the final heating. This 240v finds its way into the Geyser and trips the 120v CB (regardless if its 15 or 20 amps). Since it happens without any visible spark it is not obvious. That's my guess,... but I could be wrong.

 

[ajamison]

I'll put some better pictures here. I did get some responses on another forum, but they were mostly keying in on the thought that the Geyser was short-cycling - basically that it shouldn't be trying to start right back up after it powers down.

The Geyser is 120V and the HW tank is 240V. This is from the manual - "The Geyser R replaces the lower element in operation and provides th
e majority of the heating requirements. The upper element is left on at the temperature you set it and will only engage if there is a need for quick recovery. Therefore in normal operation the Geyser -R will provide all the hot water needed and the top element will not run."

My water heater only has 2 wires from power supply to the water heater (wiring diagram attachment in my previous post) and the picture of the water heater in the Nyle manual (the 2 pics below) I think is of one with 4 wires. But you would think if this was an issue it would have come up as a problem for others. When I hooked mine up I undid the red wire to make the connection.

 

[CaptSpiff]

OK, the Geyser diagram clearly shows the 240v control relay circuit as totally independent from the 120v system.
And the 240v connection at the tank is so simple it is hard to envision making an error. So I take back some of what I said previously.

But now I have a new question:
The Water Tank wiring diagram shows the Lower element being fed by the simple (smaller) thermostat with the Red & Black wire. But you appear to have lifted the Blue wire.
The Water Tank wiring diagram shows the Upper element being fed by the safety (larger) thermostat with the Yellow & Blue wire.

What's up with that?

 

[ajamison]

I just noticed one more thing. I was looking over the wiring diagram for my HW tank again and there was this note at the bottom of the wiring diagram page -

OK, the Geyser diagram clearly shows the 240v control relay circuit as totally independent from the 120v system.
And the 240v connection at the tank is so simple it is hard to envision making an error. So I take back some of what I said previously.

But now I have a new question:
The Water Tank wiring diagram shows the Lower element being fed by the simple (smaller) thermostat with the Red & Black wire. But you appear to have lifted the Blue wire.
The Water Tank wiring diagram shows the Upper element being fed by the safety (larger) thermostat with the Yellow & Blue wire.

What's up with that?

Sorry for the confusion - the pic with the blue wire being lifted is from the Geyser manual. I don't have any pics of my actual connection since I don't have the unit right now. When I did have it connected I first lifted the black wire, then after my problems started, I tried the red. I guess now I am looking more towards what would cause the unit to try and start right back up again after running for two hours?

 

[ajamison]

Ignore the first sentence in my previous post that is above your quote.

 

[bdud]

Maybe an electrically "noisy" thermostat on your boiler?? Maybe not a problem with a straight forward electric element but enough to confuse the Geyser unit.
Nyle have tested the unit itself and they say they cannot find a problem with it and your wiring does look correct but you are still having issues.
What about having Nyle convert your unit to a Geyser RO unit? The difference with this unit is that it uses an external temp probe and no electrical wiring is required. You will have greater control over what temp the Geyser turns on, the amount the temp has to drop before the unit turns on again and it shows the water temp at the probe on the display. Leave a wire disconnected to the lower thermostat/ element if you still want to leave the power still turned on to the upper heating element in case the Geyser cannot keep up. But try it with just the Geyser and see if the unit is sufficient.
Our Geyser RO is also connect to an 80 gallon tank and supplies all our hot water in the warmer months. The tank does have an electric element but I have never turned it on, I have never had anyone complain of cold water even with 5 adults in the house for a large portion of a year, back to 3 adults now.

 

[ajamison]

Maybe an electrically "noisy" thermostat on your boiler?? Maybe not a problem with a straight forward electric element but enough to confuse the Geyser unit.
Nyle have tested the unit itself and they say they cannot find a problem with it and your wiring does look correct but you are still having issues.
What about having Nyle convert your unit to a Geyser RO unit? The difference with this unit is that it uses an external temp probe and no electrical wiring is required. You will have greater control over what temp the Geyser turns on, the amount the temp has to drop before the unit turns on again and it shows the water temp at the probe on the display. Leave a wire disconnected to the lower thermostat/ element if you still want to leave the power still turned on to the upper heating element in case the Geyser cannot keep up. But try it with just the Geyser and see if the unit is sufficient.
Our Geyser RO is also connect to an 80 gallon tank and supplies all our hot water in the warmer months. The tank does have an electric element but I have never turned it on, I have never had anyone complain of cold water even with 5 adults in the house for a large portion of a year, back to 3 adults now.

I'll have to think more about that. Maybe a good idea. How many hours a day do you think your Geyser runs during the warmer months? I'm still not clear on how long a cycle should last and how much the Geyser should run in a day (I know it can vary, but for a household of 4).

 

[bdud]

The Geyser RO uses a Johnson Controls A419 with the probe at the bottom as in the manual, set at 125 with a difference or swing of 30 degrees. I also have a sensor probe port about half way up on my water tank which has another A419 that I use for my boiler in the winter. The boiler sensor is set at 130 with a swing of 30 degrees. When the Geyser has heated the water and switches off at 125, the boiler sensor had already reached 130 quite a while before. I believe the Geyser does a pretty good job at heating the water tank quite evenly because of the pump inside it. I think the Geyser may have turned on at 7am, 3 of us had showers during the time and the Geyser turned of at ~11am, basement at ~70-73 degrees.
The Geyser may also turn on for a while after moderate hot water usage later today but will not run so long.
The Geyser runs longer heating the last few degrees, maybe it would be more efficient to drop the set temp to 122 or lower but that is what Nyle recommended. I don't think I will lower it as it does a such great job of cooling and dehumidifying our basement, I don't want to lose that part of it.

 

[tom in maine]

The wiring design for the Geyser R and the older Nyletherms is stupid. They are a legacy from the original unit that Nyle copied.
There was a cost savings in using the electric heater lower control, but it does nothing but cause aggravation (a lot to me, since we trouble shoot these all the time!) for any water heater that is slightly different from the one they designed the unit for.
If Nyle will convert the R to an RO, go for it. If they won't do it, you can.
I did one a couple years ago. I don't remember the exact design, but it was not too hairy.

 

[ajamison]

So you think there might be incompatibilities between the Geyser R and some electric water heaters?

I'm not very familiar with the Geyser-RO. When it is hooked up to an electric hot water heater, is it supposed to supply all of the hot water? Do you have to turn the hot water heater off since there is no interplay with the the thermostat? If not, how does it work?

 

[bdud]

So you think there might be incompatibilities between the Geyser R and some electric water heaters?

I'm not very familiar with the Geyser-RO. When it is hooked up to an electric hot water heater, is it supposed to supply all of the hot water? Do you have to turn the hot water heater off since there is no interplay with the the thermostat? If not, how does it work?

I think somebody like Tom or Nyle themselves might be able to answer the compatibility question.
In my case, the Nyle is supplying all my hot water needs, never used the electric element.
I just turn the 220v breaker off at the fuse panel.
If you are worried about whether the Nyle can supply all your hot water, have the top electric element set at a low temp. As the hot water is used the top will normally stay hotter longer, so the top element should only come on when a large amount of water is used. This is how most dual element water heaters work, the bottom element does the bulk of the heating and comes on sooner and stays on longer. Personally I would just try heating the water with the Nyle, this will be the most cost effective way. The Nyle with the pump inside does heat up the tank quite evenly, so you may find you get more hot water per tank than with electric elements.
Have a look on the Nyle website on the RO install instructions. The unit comes with a probe on the end of a lead which is connected into the A419 which is bolted to the Nyle. You slip the probe next to inlet / outlet pipes of the Nyle where they connect to the tank. Just make sure it is fully insulated and touches the pipe. No electrical connections, just plug the Nyle into a 110v outlet.

 

[tom in maine]

If you refer to the original wiring that Nyle shows for a "typical" electric water heater, you will see that the power from one side of the 240vac feed has to pass through the lower control and electric element
to make the heat pump turn on.
Some water heaters are wired different internally. And electronic control water heaters do not seem to work right with the R either.
The Geyser RO was actually made due to my complaining that half of my then Geyser customers were using the heat pump with a non-electric tank. The RO has a built in aquastat to control the temperature, so there is no monkeying around with internal controls on the tank.
Geysers are now sold directly by Nyle to the end user. They are in a weird position in the marketplace. The big manufacturers of the all in one heat pump water heaters (Geospring, Rheem, etc.)keep cutting their prices and Nyle needs to remain competitive price wise.
Of course, the all in one units, when the tank springs a leak, will be thrown away with the tank, while the Nyle unit can be changed over to another tank.

 

[ajamison]

I finally heard back from Nyle, and this is some of what they said (I had emailed them with some of the feedback from this forum and another one):

"If the Geyser runs for two hours and then shuts off and tries to restart immediately, that sounds like a water heater problem. The "call" from the water heater was interrupted. The fan running and nothing else means that the call went away and came back and that set the 5 minute short cycle timer. . . Also, check the water heater element resistance. It should be 0 Ohms. A new thermostat is 10 dollars and takes all of 5 minutes to change. The water heater has to be 100% for the Geyser to work properly. A conversion to a Geyser-RO is about $150. "

I don't have a multimeter, but I may go get one. Though my hot water heater is brand new, so I doubt that the thermostat is already bad. Since they still have my unit, it seems a bit risky given all the shipping chargers to have them send it back as is. I am leaning towards the RO option.

 

[bdud]

I personally would go for the RO version so you can then have a working heat pump. Even if you replaced or tested the thermostat it still won't guarantee it will work and you will be back where you are now. The controllers Nyle uses are ~$90. I ripped off the original thermostat on my new storage tank on my boiler and used the A419 because it just did not work. The A419's temp display and lights show you what's happening.

 

[ajamison]

So I went ahead and got it converted to an RO. I'm been hooking it back up today, and since it is Saturday, I can't call tech support, so I thought I post here. It says to ream a hole 2-3" deep and insert the probe along the nipple. Well my nipple basically screws in about 1/2' into the tank, so reaming in another 2-3" would put the probe deeper than the nipple and not flush with it. I assume it is better just to lay the probe alongside the nipple and then insulate really well?

Also, when I turn it on, the screen reads 72 degrees, hitting menu brings up 125. I assume 125 is the setpoint. Is the 72 the nipple temp? How does the unit decide when to turn on and off? The manual a "differential", but I don't know what that means.

Thanks.

 

[bdud]

I dont understand what you are saying here? "It says to ream a hole 2-3" deep and insert the probe along the nipple. Well my nipple basically screws in about 1/2' into the tank, so reaming in another 2-3" would put the probe deeper than the nipple and not flush with it."
From the RO installation manual.. http://www.nyle.com/downloads/GeyserRO_Manual.pdf page 13.. It describes installing the sensing probe at the bottom of the tank at the Nyle water input/output.. This is what I have done.
On page 21 of the same pdf is the settings you should have on your Johnson Controls A419.
Here is an instruction manual. http://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.com/met_pdf/125188.pdf
The 72 you are seeing is the tank temp, seems low if this is your hot water tank.
125 in the menu is what temp the Nyle will turn off.
30 should be your differential so at 30 degrees less your turn off temp, 125 degrees, when the temp reaches 95 degrees the heat pump will turn on and at 125 it will turn off.